Win 8 - How do I multitask?

[chinesepiratefood]

I know most people prefer doing one thing at a time, and research backs this up. However there is a huge difference between actual multitasking, and just being able to do multiple things easily.

e.g. Have a web browser open, a music/video player, and a chat window. This is a scenario 90% of people will encounter. It's impossible in Metro. You could dock the chat window (the example they like to use) but that isn't enough. This doesn't even require multiple monitors, all this is perfectly doable on a single monitor - e.g. a laptop. It's ironic that the target segment for Win 8 (tablets and laptops) will suffer the most.

And I like the new Start screen. It's useful and most people will like it. I hate the fact that it forces a context switch. If I'm watching a video and need to launch a program, I don't want the whole screen to be taken over while I search for what I need in the terribly designed search screen. So now I'm forced to pause the video, search, then resume. With Win 7 the search happens in the start menu itself in the corner, disrupting nothing.

Its easy to justify taking away features with the 'most people don't use it'. Which is just marketing speak for 'dumb down the UI'. A proper design will make the UI easier for most people, while still allowing power users to use it as they wish.

Suffer from what, exactly? What exactly are you doing on your computer that while not being able to take your eyes away from the video you must also launch another application?

 

[MrCrispy]

I think the point was that Metro doesn't have multitasking which you've agreed with. Maybe they should call it Max2Tasking instead?

The bigger point is that desktop app development is heavily discouraged, if not dead. The new API's only support Metro, all the dev effort will go into WinRT, and even the tools are removing support for desktop apps.

So Microsoft wants developers and users to focus on Metro, which as we've seen doesn't have multitasking.

 

[MrCrispy]

Suffer from what, exactly? What exactly are you doing on your computer that while not being able to take your eyes away from the video you must also launch another application?

Who are you to say how people should use their computer? I'm just stating a fact that Win 8 takes away capabilities. People use start menu all the time, to launch apps, search for stuff etc. And every time it will take them away from their current task.

Do you ever switch between windows? In Metro the taskbar is hidden. So tons of useful info - network status, time, whether someone needs my attention on IM, do I have new mail, every single indicator that tons of Windows apps have developed is now hidden. All so I can see a single (or 2) Metro apps in all their fullscreen wasting glory with lots of empty space.

None of this makes sense on a desktop or laptop pc.

 

[BigJayDogg3]

Who are you to say how people should use their computer? I'm just stating a fact that Win 8 takes away capabilities. People use start menu all the time, to launch apps, search for stuff etc. And every time it will take them away from their current task.

Do you ever switch between windows? In Metro the taskbar is hidden. So tons of useful info - network status, time, whether someone needs my attention on IM, do I have new mail, every single indicator that tons of Windows apps have developed is now hidden. All so I can see a single (or 2) Metro apps in all their fullscreen wasting glory with lots of empty space.

None of this makes sense on a desktop or laptop pc.

Wanna know something cool?

The desktop is still there.

Nothing has been taken away.

 

[heatlesssun]

Desktop app development isn't heavily discouraged. It's just that Metro is brand new and an open field, naturally Microsoft is going to highlight plus the open field represents a chance for developers to get in on a ground floor. The desktop isn't going anywhere, it's FAR to big of a competitive advantage for Microsoft to give up any time soon. They're leveraging the desktop to gain entry into tablets. Indeed the desktop, though locked down, is in Windows RT. In an ideal world for Microsoft they want a lot of desktop and Metro development as that's the combination that is best for them. And with Windows 7 hitting 600 million copies sold, yeah, there's going to be plenty of desktop development for years and years to come.

As to your earlier point about Windows 8 and multitasking, right now on my Samsung Series 7 Slate where I have three programs open on the screen simultaneously writing the post, the Metro music app and desktop IE and Windows Media Player open on the desktop. All on screen side by side.

Three programs on screen simultaneously on a tablet of all things, controlled via touch and you're saying that Metro takes away from multitasking?

Most people don't even do this on a desktop with Windows 7 or any OS for that matter.

I get called a Microsoft apologist a lot but sometimes I do think that it's easy to demonstrate that arguments being made against Metro don't make a lot of sense in reality.

 

[BigJayDogg3]

Also, your "tons of useful info" argument is moot. Metro has a new notification interface. you'll get a pop-up notification when something happens.

Want the time? Slide the cursor to the bottom right of the screen. Time will appear, as will "silhouettes" with numbers by them stating how many of a specific notification you have.

And when you are in the desktop, everything is as it was save the fact there is not a start button in the bottom of the screen.

I've been running W8 on my laptop (1200 x 800) for three or four months, and on my desktop (1280 x 1024 + 1920 x 1080) for the past two weeks. The ONLY problem I've had functionality wise is the automatic reboots for updates.

 

[heatlesssun]

So this is an example of how one supposedly can't multitask with Windows 8 and Metro. The above was done an an x86 tablet with touch even, just as easy with a keyboard, Areo snap is actually a cool desktop feature that's easy to use with touch.

And what's interesting and people love to go one and one about Windows RT having no advantages over iOS and Android, you could do the same thing on a Windows RT device.

Multitasking is alive and well in Windows 8 and it's more useable than ever and even works with tablets and is much more capable then iOS and Android in that regard currently. I wouldn't be surprised if Google or Apple copied this feature.

 

[closers]

The problem with Metro is that it feels unnecessary for the desktop. Toggling back and forth between screens just feels like an extra task compared to the unobtrusive start menu. It feels like it's Microsoft's grand product strategy grafted onto Windows 7. The core of Windows 8, the optimizations to make it quick and nimble are excellent. Taking away the start menu and moving things around to places familiar to only someone who designed it is not. It's like the Office Ribbon all over again, people in general and businesses especially do not want to spend time relearning how to use the computer or for example how to accomplish a simple thing like signing out of the Mail app.

 

[BigJayDogg3]

The problem with Metro is that it feels unnecessary for the desktop. Toggling back and forth between screens just feels like an extra task compared to the unobtrusive start menu. It feels like it's Microsoft's grand product strategy grafted onto Windows 7. The core of Windows 8, the optimizations to make it quick and nimble are excellent. Taking away the start menu and moving things around to places familiar to only someone who designed it is not. It's like the Office Ribbon all over again, people in general and businesses especially do not want to spend time relearning how to use the computer or for example how to accomplish a simple thing like signing out of the Mail app.

I'll leave the first part of that alone because it is mostly opinion based. I do think that when you get to the heart of the matter, after entering the start menu, it is exceedingly rare that I need to be able to view my open windows. Maybe I just use computers differently than you guys.

But drawing paralells to the ribbon only makes the point that Windows 8 is a step in the right direction that much stronger. The people that didn't like the ribbon normally weren't average people, it was the power users. The norms found the ribbon easier to use. A few things got moved around, sure. But for the most part, the most important things that used to be buried in menus are not far more readily accessible.

I'm still not completely convinced business should be opposed to W8, but again, that's a matter of opinion. There are arguments to be made both ways.

 

[closers]

Problem with Ribbon was clear the most in Excel, what used to be in a drop down menu was now several clicks and another hidden away. It's not intuitive if you (and especially people who rarely use Excel) have to learn where it is again, it's just displaced or rather misplaced.

Same thing with Metro, simple things like logging out of the Mail app is nested deep somewhere else whereas it should be as simple as hitting a button or an easily accessible menu. Or how about checking the time? It use to be just there, now I need another app, some setting I have no clue of yet, or have to toggle back to the desktop, which funny enough looks nothing like Metro.

And that's just Windows 8 what's the point of Metro on Server 2012, especially since you rarely see the UI anyway, to waste resources?

 

[TeeJayHoward]

Want the time? Slide the cursor to the bottom right of the screen.

Hrm, another thing that doesn't work for me. I have to slide the cursor to the bottom right, then mouse up onto the bar that appears and wait for the time to fade in. On previous versions of Windows, I just looked at the bottom-right corner. I think I prefered it that way.

I don't mind the new start menu too much. It's easy to use once you get used to it. However, it really doesn't flow with the desktop part of the OS. From the screenshot above, there is a definite look-and-feel break between the Metro app and the desktop applications. This isn't Linux circa 2000... It really should be better.

 

[TheWeazmeister]

I was watching Uncle Bernie testify this morning as well

 

[BigJayDogg3]

Problem with Ribbon was clear the most in Excel, what used to be in a drop down menu was now several clicks and another hidden away. It's not intuitive if you (and especially people who rarely use Excel) have to learn where it is again, it's just displaced or rather misplaced.

Same thing with Metro, simple things like logging out of the Mail app is nested deep somewhere else whereas it should be as simple as hitting a button or an easily accessible menu. And that's just Windows 8 what's the point of Metro on Server 2012, especially since you rarely see the UI anyway, to waste resources?

You're again talking about cases that aren't the majority. Seriously. Take it from someone that has had to help many a person with Excel in the computer lab, we've had FAR more people ask questions about old Excel than ribbon'd Excel. Anytime you move to a new way of doing something, regardless of whether or not it is better or worse, you are going to alienate some groups.

Why are you so dead set on logging out of mail? I can count on one hand the number of people that log out of Outlook. If it is a multi-user system, create another user account. If you want another email address for the same user, add a new account to Mail.

On server...I don't know why MS did that to be honest. But since you aren't going to be using the UI it doesn't matter. And if the UI did load, it still would utilize fewer resources than the traditional desktop.

Hrm, another thing that doesn't work for me. I have to slide the cursor to the bottom right, then mouse up onto the bar that appears and wait for the time to fade in. On previous versions of Windows, I just looked at the bottom-right corner. I think I prefered it that way.

You're actually correct. Muh bad. Sliding up for the charms has become almost second nature.

Even still, if you're on a desktop/laptop, chances are you're going to be spending very little time in the Metro environment to begin with. I make use of Metro apps, but normally I toss those over to my second monitor when I'd normally keep my media player full screen anyway. Normally when I'm actually "working" I'm on my main screen, in a desktop, meaning you still look bottom-right for the time. Again, nothing is lost except the start menu. You just gain the ability to "live" inside a more simplistic environment.

I'm not trying to be a hopeless MS apologist, there are many things MS did that are questionable (like their entire marketing scheme). But I truely don't understand the (almost) baseless hate toward W8.

 

[heatlesssun]

From the screenshot above, there is a definite look-and-feel break between the Metro app and the desktop applications. This isn't Linux circa 2000... It really should be better.

I think too much is made of notion of a consistent desktop UI. Even in it's current form Windows desktop apps are all over the place when it comes to look, feel or function. You click the close button in the Steam client, which is a non-standard looking app in the first place, and you don't actually close the app. Metro apps are far more consistent in look, feel and behavior than desktop apps. For all that's been said about no close button with Metro apps, when you close them, they are ALWAYS closed.

 

[heatlesssun]

I was watching Uncle Bernie testify this morning as well

Yeah, I always love to see the Fed Chairman testify on The Hill.

 

[TeeJayHoward]

I think too much is made of notion of a consistent desktop UI.

I respectfully disagree. It's one of the reasons that Apple has such a nice OS. Well, that and the terminal, but MS has done a bang-up job with Powershell.

Even in it's current form Windows desktop apps are all over the place when it comes to look, feel or function. You click the close button in the Steam client, which is a non-standard looking app in the first place, and you don't actually close the app. Metro apps are far more consistent in look, feel and behavior than desktop apps. For all that's been said about no close button with Metro apps, when you close them, they are ALWAYS closed.

That's something that's always pissed me off. If I want something running in the background, I'll install it as a service or minimize it to the taskbar. Why on earth does the ability to minimize something to the systray even exist?

Back to Metro, I can understand the lack of buttons to maximize (everything's maximized anyway), minimize (do anything in another window and it goes away anyway), or close (drag it down. Easy enough, I guess.). Most of what I do isn't harmed by the switch to Metro. Instead of start->typing, I hit the windows key and start typing. Any app or application I run on a regular basis is on the new start menu or the desktop, so no additional time is taken up there. I dislike the hugeness of the buttons on Metro apps, but I can see it working great for tablet users, and I do have the desktop version of most apps to satisfy me.

Honestly, after having used Windows 8 for a while, I see no real reason NOT to get it. At the same time, though, for your average desktop user, I see no reason TO get it.

 

[dR.Jester]

for that you need Windows 8 Multitasking Edition. It's two Metro's side by side.

Thanks for the laugh, this was fking funny!

 

[heatlesssun]

Honestly, after having used Windows 8 for a while, I see no real reason NOT to get it. At the same time, though, for your average desktop user, I see no reason TO get it.

Metro apps, plain and simple. There's just going to zillions coming online and almost any average person is probably going to find a game, social, education, language or maybe even a productivity app that they like. I know a lot of people say "I don't want phone apps on my desktop!" but there's a number of advantages to them for people. Most will be pretty cheap or free, easy to install, you'll never lose them, they can be restored to a system from a backup, etc.

 

[closers]

I might be a power user, but arguing for more efficiency through fewer clicks is hardly baseless.

Now that mail answer you gave really sounds like an apologist response. It's not the product, it's you. What does it matter why? The people I know do not like their online passwords stored locally. When it comes down to it, it's simply about the choice and the privacy, is that really too much to ask for? Do the majority of people not like privacy? I am sure you can do it too, it's just hidden somewhere.

You're again talking about cases that aren't the majority. Seriously. Take it from someone that has had to help many a person with Excel in the computer lab, we've had FAR more people ask questions about old Excel than ribbon'd Excel. Anytime you move to a new way of doing something, regardless of whether or not it is better or worse, you are going to alienate some groups.

Why are you so dead set on logging out of mail? I can count on one hand the number of people that log out of Outlook. If it is a multi-user system, create another user account. If you want another email address for the same user, add a new account to Mail.

By the way ever heard of an Outlook virus?

 

[BigJayDogg3]

What does it matter why?

Because you can't expect Microsoft to cater to an atypical use case because they want to do things the "hard way". Most people have very little issue storing passwords locally, as evidenced by the number of people that use the browser's password storage system which typically store them in plain text.

Windows 8's Metro environment is a departure from typical desktop usages in that it is meant to be a basic interface for people who either can't or just do not want to use a more complicated computer. If you're someone that wants to use the more complicated features of Windows CONTINUE USING THE DESKTOP. Nobody is forcing you to use Metro day-in and day-out.

By the way ever heard of an Outlook virus?

Sure. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I've also heard about Java exploits, and exploits in Flash. Does that mean every time I want to use those plug-ins I should reinstall them?

-snip-

To be honest, the people complaining over W8 remind me of *NIX zealots who turn their nose up at anything GUI. Nevermind the fact that there are circumstances where a GUI will accomplish a task that much faster. Is Metro designed to be everything to everyone? Fuck no. That's the reason I'm not buying an RT device. But it accomplishes a select subset of those things, and it does it damn well in my opinion.

EDIT: To respond to the question of "Do the majority of people not like privacy?" I have one response: Facebook.

 

[heatlesssun]

To be honest, the people complaining over W8 remind me of *NIX zealots who turn their nose up at anything GUI. Nevermind the fact that there are circumstances where a GUI will accomplish a task that much faster. Is Metro designed to be everything to everyone? Fuck no. That's the reason I'm not buying an RT device. But it accomplishes a select subset of those things, and it does it damn well in my opinion.

Windows 8 actually allows one to do more across a wider variety of form factors and input methods. Is some stuff given up on the desktop with keyboards and mice? I'd say that overall it's a wash. And ultimately EVERYTHING that you can do on the Windows 7 desktop you can do on the Windows 8 desktop. But when you go to tablets and touch devices the gains are TREMENDOUS over Windows 7, even the desktop works better with touch with fuzzy targeting and the ribbon Explorer.

So very little is given up on the desktop and with keyboards and mice, some things are improved a bit even on the desktop with traditional input methods but that same UI now works much better on the kinds of devices the world is moving towards more and more.

So at the end of the day, Microsoft has to move Windows forward, I don't think any rational person can argue against that. And with any big change to a product as old and popular as Windows resistance is inevitable. The big sticking point with a lot of folks is a Metro off switch. I've thought a lot about the subject and was at one point ok with idea but the more I thought about it the more I was convinced that clinging onto a 20 old UI doesn't serve Microsoft, Metro developers or even customers well. Customers would miss out on the emerging Metro app market. I see no long term benefit to customers in disabling the point of the product. If Metro is that much of a problem use Windows 7, OS X, Linux, ect. because at least with those environments you wouldn't be disabling the point of the OS.

 

[oldpablo]

Personally if I were MS and had a stellar product like Win7 I'd take advantage of it being well established and do something fresh and new. And that's what they did. If we were all on vista then they couldn't take this new curve.

 

[closers]

@BigJayDogg3 "I don't appreciate you calling my mule being compared to a zealot. You see my mule don't like people using that comparison. He gets the crazy idea that you're comparing it to him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him you really didn't mean it."

Misinterpreting my arguments hardly makes me the irrational zealot. W8 is still for all intents and purposes a beta OS, otherwise MS would not have a giant feedback button on the taskbar in each app. You are defending it as a final perfect product with things like you are not the majority and will be assimilated. With that reasoning we might as well accept Windows ME as perfect, where they introduced many features but not PROPERLY implemented. They were by the way fixed in the end to make Windows what it is today.

And that's what I am saying all along. There are features missing or not implemented correctly in W8 like the Mail app, features in basically every webmail program. It can't group conversations, it can't flag messages, and some subfolders don't even show up right. Also, what if I want to change my email from the same service or add another one? What it I made a mistake entering it. It takes a maze of clicks to correct this. Do I still have to completely delete my profile to accomplish this? I am sure MS will eventually fix all of this or provide workarounds, but it is for now fair grounds for criticism in this beta OS.

If W8 is not done correctly though, people will not adopt it or worse damage product image. This was the case for ME, Vista, and Office 2007 too to a certain extent. Many businesses and organizations jumped straight to the next versions where features were better thought out. And that is what I have been arguing all along, Windows 8 does certain things really well, but it needs or would be vastly superior with small improvements for improved usability. Since it is in BETA now is the perfect time to air these things. They need to address them sooner or later and not get countered with put downs.

PS: Outlook viruses are relevant because they are made worse with permanently logged in saved passwords. Once the program is compromised it can't stop spamming until you eradicate it, block it, or I don't know force it to stop syncing by yanking the credentials, also known as logging out. Shared desktops are not personal mobile phones.

Also Metro is being forced on everyone, even server side. I would like to use the desktop, but I have this giant Metro graft onto it that's not even seamless with the desktop. Never said it was poor for all devices, it's great for some just not for everything, unfortunately there's no choice here.

Because you can't expect Microsoft to cater to an atypical use case because they want to do things the "hard way". Most people have very little issue storing passwords locally, as evidenced by the number of people that use the browser's password storage system which typically store them in plain text.

Windows 8's Metro environment is a departure from typical desktop usages in that it is meant to be a basic interface for people who either can't or just do not want to use a more complicated computer. If you're someone that wants to use the more complicated features of Windows CONTINUE USING THE DESKTOP. Nobody is forcing you to use Metro day-in and day-out.

Sure. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I've also heard about Java exploits, and exploits in Flash. Does that mean every time I want to use those plug-ins I should reinstall them?

-snip-

To be honest, the people complaining over W8 remind me of *NIX zealots who turn their nose up at anything GUI. Nevermind the fact that there are circumstances where a GUI will accomplish a task that much faster. Is Metro designed to be everything to everyone? Fuck no. That's the reason I'm not buying an RT device. But it accomplishes a select subset of those things, and it does it damn well in my opinion.

EDIT: To respond to the question of "Do the majority of people not like privacy?" I have one response: Facebook.

@Tawnos

Sorry you're right, just got carried away. Server Core comes without it as it should, but don't the other versions have the interface enabled? Moot because you see it once maybe, but it's just odd they would include a touch OS interface on Server at all.

 

[Tawnos]

Also Metro is being forced on everyone, even server side. I would like to use the desktop, but I have this giant Metro graft onto it that's not even seamless with the desktop. Never said it was poor for all devices, it's great for some just not for everything, unfortunately there's no choice here.

Let's get this clear. Metro is being built into the GUI provided by Microsoft for Windows 8. While most people don't use custom GUIs, that ability exists. Server doesn't use a GUI by default, so there's nothing being "forced" onto them. The expectation is that servers will be running Server Core, and will not even have a GUI nor the related components installed. To that end, significant investment was made into providing a fully-functional powershell environment and command-line tools for the purposes of running a server without ever needing any GUI.

 

[Gorankar]

Bleh, I don't even care at this point.

Someone will undoubtedly fix the OS, same as they have for the Betas/RCs. I have zero interest in Metro apps, especially the pay variety. If MS is somehow successful in suppressing those fixes, I may just ditch MS once I have used up all of my Win 7 licenses, and/or 7 is no longer a viable OS. I prolly have 6-10 years on that.


Give me what I want, I give you money. Don't, and I don't, and Nix is always available for someone like myself, should I choose it.

 

[Wrench00]

Let's get this clear. Metro is being built into the GUI provided by Microsoft for Windows 8. While most people don't use custom GUIs, that ability exists. Server doesn't use a GUI by default, so there's nothing being "forced" onto them. The expectation is that servers will be running Server Core, and will not even have a GUI nor the related components installed. To that end, significant investment was made into providing a fully-functional powershell environment and command-line tools for the purposes of running a server without ever needing any GUI.

Yeah.. How many people do you know powershell and to the tits. Microsoft did a step forward in doing lots of nice thing through GUI in servers because they said not everyone was good at scripting. Now its going backwards. I know powershell but honestly I rather NOT have to do 99% of server administration through Powershell. Somethings are great like exchange but the rest is overly complicated.
I used Server 8 beta and it was convoluted everything was buried under a tonne of useless layers.
I have seen so many server screwed up by muppets using a GUI but I just couldn't imagine the travesty of no gui servers.
How are small business going to do stuff with SBS?
Expecting every admin to run server core is asinine and counterproductive. Defend Metro all you like but there is no real reason for this stupid UI on the server.

And you really messed up with server having core as foundation.. Nope sorry that's wrong Powershell and .net gave the ability to talk directly with the windows.

 

[Tawnos]

Yeah.. How many people do you know powershell and to the tits. Microsoft did a step forward in doing lots of nice thing through GUI in servers because they said not everyone was good at scripting. Now its going backwards. I know powershell but honestly I rather NOT have to do 99% of server administration through Powershell. Somethings are great like exchange but the rest is overly complicated.
I used Server 8 beta and it was convoluted everything was buried under a tonne of useless layers.
I have seen so many server screwed up by muppets using a GUI but I just couldn't imagine the travesty of no gui servers.
How are small business going to do stuff with SBS?
Expecting every admin to run server core is asinine and counterproductive. Defend Metro all you like but there is no real reason for this stupid UI on the server.

And you really messed up with server having core as foundation.. Nope sorry that's wrong Powershell and .net gave the ability to talk directly with the windows.

Let's flip this back for a second. What is there that you can't do in the GUI install of server that you could do before? The system administration tools are still there and as powerful as ever. Care to explain what exactly Metro takes away from that?

 

[heatlesssun]

Let's flip this back for a second. What is there that you can't do in the GUI install of server that you could do before? The system administration tools are still there and as powerful as ever. Care to explain what exactly Metro takes away from that?

I've not tested Server 2012 extensively but in Windows 8 no functionality has been taken away, but of course there are those who consider the Start Button and Menu functionality so there's no way to make this point with them.

 

[XOR != OR]

I've not tested Server 2012 extensively but in Windows 8 no functionality has been taken away, but of course there are those who consider the Start Button and Menu functionality so there's no way to make this point with them.

Wait, how are usability elements NOT "functionality"?

 

[heatlesssun]

Give me what I want, I give you money. Don't, and I don't, and Nix is always available for someone like myself, should I choose it.

And this is how it should work. The main difference between Metro opponents and myself is that Metro opponents want some kind of "pure" desktop OS from the 90s. My needs and wants are different. I understand that you have no need or want for a tablet or touch UI and that's fine. There's a considerable debate as to whether or not in the coming years if they would define a mainstream user of a PC.

The main difference I see between Metro opponents and supporters like myself lies in how exactly will people use computers in the the years ahead. It would appear that Metro opponents see the Windows PC as a healthy platform, in no need of responding to the use of smart phones, tablets and touch in the lives of burgeoning millions, from everything from entertainment to productivity.

While the PC and desktops and keyboards and mice are still important it's hard to see these things as relevant as they were just a few years ago.

 

[heatlesssun]

Wait, how are usability elements NOT "functionality"?

I've found it difficult to discuss usability with those who've not used Windows 8 on touch capable hardware. In any case, Windows 8 is much more usable across a much wider variety of devices than previous versions of Windows. If all one has ever done is use Windows with keyboards and mice then again, I can related to the notion that Windows 8 is less usable and less functional. However when used to its full potential on capable hardware, this is simply isn't the case.

In the nine months I've used Windows 8 across various device, while different from Windows 7 there's nothing Windows 8 can't do in comparison with keyboards and mice. When used on touch capable hardware, is Windows 7 is far less capable than Windows 8.

 

[XOR != OR]

I've found it difficult to discuss usability with those who've not used Windows 8 on touch capable hardware. In any case, Windows 8 is much more usable across a much wider variety of devices than previous versions of Windows. If all one has ever done is use Windows with keyboards and mice then again, I can related to the notion that Windows 8 is less usable and less functional. However when used to its full potential on capable hardware, this is simply isn't the case.

In the nine months I've used Windows 8 across various device, while different from Windows 7 there's nothing Windows 8 can't do in comparison with keyboards and mice. When used on touch capable hardware, is Windows 7 is far less capable than Windows 8.

So...translating...

Usability elements ARE "functionality", and the GUI change in windows 8 DOES constitute a loss of previous functionality over windows 7.

It's subjective whether it's better or not ( and I just KNOW you are going to try to say otherwise ), but the plain objective truth is that the loss of central GUI elements DOES constitute a loss of functionality.

It would appear that Metro opponents see the Windows PC as a healthy platform, in no need of responding to the use of smart phones, tablets and touch in the lives of burgeoning millions, from everything from entertainment to productivity.

Incorrect, actually. My own criticism ( and what I've seen elsewhere ) is not that MS doesn't need to respond, but rather that we'd prefer that response not alienate their stable customer base. You want a pretty new interface, knock yourself out. That's great. But do not force it on your customer base, with no option of going back to a previously known interface. A large chunk of their customer base ( if not the majority ) will not be best amused by this, and those of us that support them are already annoyed at previous frivolous GUI changes that we had to support these users on.

 

[Tawnos]

So...translating...

Usability elements ARE "functionality", and the GUI change in windows 8 DOES constitute a loss of previous functionality over windows 7.

It's subjective whether it's better or not

These statements contradict each other. The functionality wasn't lost, it changed forms. You can still use start to search for things just by hitting windows key and typing, you can still pin things to start, can still launch programs from start. It's _different_, so it seems dishonest to me for you to call it a "loss of functionality" when you're just dealing with preference.

 

[XOR != OR]

These statements contradict each other. The functionality wasn't lost, it changed forms. You can still use start to search for things just by hitting windows key and typing, you can still pin things to start, can still launch programs from start. It's _different_, so it seems dishonest to me for you to call it a "loss of functionality" when you're just dealing with preference.

Ah, you managed to misunderstand the points of my post. Here you go;

Does it work like it did in 7? No? Then it's a loss of functionality. That's the objective part.

Whether the new interface is worth the trade off is the subjective part.

 

[heatlesssun]

So...translating...

Usability elements ARE "functionality", and the GUI change in windows 8 DOES constitute a loss of previous functionality over windows 7.

It's subjective whether it's better or not ( and I just KNOW you are going to try to say otherwise ), but the plain objective truth is that the loss of central GUI elements DOES constitute a loss of functionality.

Actually I don't disagree with what you're saying, in fact you're making my case I believe. The base word of of usability is use, and the fact is that few people have actually used Windows 8 on devices that utilize it's full capability.

Incorrect, actually. My own criticism ( and what I've seen elsewhere ) is not that MS doesn't need to respond, but rather that we'd prefer that response not alienate their stable customer base. You want a pretty new interface, knock yourself out. That's great. But do not force it on your customer base, with no option of going back to a previously known interface. A large chunk of their customer base ( if not the majority ) will not be best amused by this, and those of us that support them are already annoyed at previous frivolous GUI changes that we had to support these users on.

I simply point out that many disagree on just how stable the user based is in light that many love to call this time the "post-PC" era. Microsoft did announce last week that it has sold Windows 7 licenses which would would make your case of a stable Windows 7 base and that OS will be supported and sold for many years to come.

And to me it's more than a "pretty UI". I actually makes devices that Microsoft's OEMs have been making for many years far more functional and usable.I have a number of Tablet PCs that were built well before Windows 8 and Windows 8 even in it's beta form makes these devices more usable and functional than Windows 7.

 

[heatlesssun]

Does it work like it did in 7? No? Then it's a loss of functionality. That's the objective part.

So different in and of itself is a loss of functionality?

 

[XOR != OR]

I simply point out that many disagree on just how stable the user based is in light that many love to call this time the "post-PC" era. Microsoft did announce last week that it has sold Windows 7 licenses which would would make your case of a stable Windows 7 base and that OS will be supported and sold for many years to come.

The problem with that theory is that windows 7 will be discontinued before windows 8. So while 7 will be supported for a while yet ( 10 years after release, typically, for MS client OSes ), at some point corporations will be forced to upgrade. Given MS's attitude on Metro, many of us are nervous that they won't correct the metro mistake come windows 9, and thus we'll be forced into a situation we do not want.

And to me it's more than a "pretty UI". I actually makes devices that Microsoft's OEMs have been making for many years far more functional and usable.I have a number of Tablet PCs that were built well before Windows 8 and Windows 8 even in it's beta form makes these devices more usable and functional than Windows 7.

We've spoken on this before, and I agree that windows 8 for tablets is exciting.

My issue remains that tablets, smartphones and desktops have different usage patterns, and their GUIs need to be reflective of that. This one-size-fits-all mentality that MS is pushing is insane and highlights a deep, deep misunderstanding of how each subset of people use their devices, as well as their willful ignorance of customer demands.

 

[heatlesssun]

The problem with that theory is that windows 7 will be discontinued before windows 8. So while 7 will be supported for a while yet ( 10 years after release, typically, for MS client OSes ), at some point corporations will be forced to upgrade. Given MS's attitude on Metro, many of us are nervous that they won't correct the metro mistake come windows 9, and thus we'll be forced into a situation we do not want. We've spoken on this before, and I agree that windows 8 for tablets is exciting.

Well given the history and the incredible support that Microsoft gives it's legacy products, I don't see the real concern. Microsoft isn't Apple in this regard fortunately.

And before anyone has used Metro on any scale with devices for which it is intended it's a mistake? Just like the ribbon in Office was before deployed I guess.

My issue remains that tablets, smartphones and desktops have different usage patterns, and their GUIs need to be reflective of that. This one-size-fits-all mentality that MS is pushing is insane and highlights a deep, deep misunderstanding of how each subset of people use their devices, as well as their willful ignorance of customer demands.

It's not a deep misunderstanding but a difference of opinion and there is no correct answer at this moment. I tend to get a chuckle when people bring up the concept or different usage patterns between desktops and tablets because it's a concept that I know so well and and lived so long. When I use a tablet PC via just the touch screen without a keyboard and mouse, different usage pattern, I've been doing it for like forever. Love or hate Metro with a mouse and keyboard, unlike iOS or Android Windows 8 actually has deep OS level support for keyboards, mice touch and even pens. As much as one might argue that Metro doesn't work well with keyboards and mice, which in my nine months of Windows 8 24x7 I find overall to be an incorrect assessment, it just different, Windows 8 does support all of these input methods broadly, iOS and Android simply don't.

What's more popular, a bunch of siloed devices with limited interoperability. little software compatibility that operate on different form factors or a single platform that's seamless between them all? I think the world will like both actually. I don't see Windows 8 as an iPad killer so much as a viable iPad alternative for those willing to deal with a new UI than issues of cross form factor support and interoperability and can have it everything a mainstream PC can do and everything a tablet can do in one device.

 

[XOR != OR]

What's more popular, a bunch of siloed devices with limited interoperability. little software compatibility that operate on different form factors or a single platform that's seamless between them all? I think the world will like both actually. I don't see Windows 8 as an iPad killer so much as a viable iPad alternative for those willing to deal with a new UI than issues of cross form factor support and interoperability and can have it everything a mainstream PC can do and everything a tablet can do in one device.

That's a false dichotomy; there is middle ground between force feeding metro and NO tablet support.

You can have a unified programming environment without a unified GUI.

 

[heatlesssun]

That's a false dichotomy; there is middle ground between force feeding metro and NO tablet support.

You can have a unified programming environment without a unified GUI.

But Windows 7 supports the SAME input methods as and has a unified UI across desktops and tablets. Of course that's not worked well in tablets but Windows versions prior to 8 all but ignored touch beyond an input method. In a way Windows 8 simply balances out and pays more attention to things that were already there and have been before anyone knew what an iPad was.