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You're missing coherency, for one. Are you asking why Intel is not pushing its x86-64 products? Well, the lack of major OS support is one very big reason.Nazo said:Anyway, if Intel has a 64-bit x86 processor, just why isn't it that it's being used hardly at all? Am I missing something here?
Nothing I say will convince you otherwise, but I'll just say that Sony's engineering department is quite competent, and Sony's high-end products are usually among the best out there. And in the age of weblogs and individual expression, very few companies can get by on name alone. Even Bose and Monster can get by because their products are merely acceptable. Sony's products can be not only acceptable, but innovative and industry-leading.I've been reading up on this a bit more. Anyone else find it positively frightening when quality companies like IBM and Toshiba team up with a company that coasts by on it's well known brand name?
Blah, blah, blah, what you are experiencing is the marketing/customer service face of the company. Yawn. How can you be the least bit qualified to judge a company's technical expertise when you can only comment on their customer service abilities?And any of you who want to tell be Sony is good, just look at all of their products. Each and every one of them is of lower quality ...
Rambus is the company, RDRAM is the product (among other products). And you mean to say that a company will be collecting on royalties for a product? Oh, the horror! It's just a contractual agreement just like anything else. Take a hard drive, for instance. Seagate, or whoever "made" the drive has contracted out suppliers for the motors, PCB, board components, drive heads, etc. Seagate made a contractual agreement with their suppliers. Hey maybe Nidec Corporation is collecting royalties for the motor in every hard drive you buy, and even profiting from it. Wouldn't that be terrible?I also read that the company that designed the rambus or something will be getting a slice of the profits on every chip sold. In other words, costs go up for the customers.
xonik said:And you mean to say that a company will be collecting on royalties for a product? Oh, the horror!
xonik said:...I'll just say that Sony's engineering department is quite competent, and Sony's high-end products are usually among the best out there. And in the age of weblogs and individual expression, very few companies can get by on name alone. Even Bose and Monster can get by because their products are merely acceptable. Sony's products can be not only acceptable, but innovative and industry-leading.
xonik said:Among recent innovations, aperture grill CRT, Xbrite, and blue laser discs. Beyond these conceptual innovations, it's my understanding that Sony make the smallest laptop in its class, the smallest CD player, and arguably, the smallest hard drive MP3 player.
Arithmetic and Logic Unit: basically a part of major core of CPU that performs calculation (integer) and logic (boolean) operations. The rest of CPU are control path, registers, caches, pipelining and etc..bountyhunter said:meh, haven't been around long enough. So then what's an ALU?
Nazo said:You know, I had a thought. If this is so great for graphics and that sort of thing, instead of making it a CPU, why not make it a GPU?
Nazo said:Smallest isn't necessarily automatically good though. Having had THE smallest mp3 player (that kazoo or whatever it was called,) I can safely say it was a real pain sometimes.
That said, I must point out that blue laser discs aren't innovitave at all. Just the obvious next step. Red laser is bigger, so, you can fit more by using almost the same technology with a thinner wavelength. Duh. Remember how I said there was a generic product that was better in every category. Well, probably someone can name something better for each of those, but, in this area, I can definitely say that there is indeed something better in the generic zone because I've been waiting with baited breath for them to hurry up and complete it (ok, I'm starting to wonder if they really will now, but, if they don't, someone else will.) FMDs. That's short for Flourescent Multilayer Discs. 100GB in first generation, more promised to follow. Who needs the old two layer discs? Blue laser is just about the highest density you're going to get.
The other things, I don't know much about having not had much to do with them. I can say that "smallest cd player" is a bit subjective though. I used to have this nice little MP3 cd player that used mini cds. Smaller and thinner than any full sized cd player I'd ever had and still fit 3+ hours (210MB.) Cost me $75 or so. It's still in service as one of my other family members.
Decelerate said:If they're the smallest, they're the smallest. period. Why do companies boast that they have the smallest this and that all the time? Innovation. Whether you like it or not is not a factor..
How isn't it? If it weren't an innovative step, then anyone could have made an MP3 player that small, without R&D. But of course that's not the case. The engineers had to design smaller components that were never used before. They had to innovate in order to reach that design goal.Nazo said:That said, my point about the smallest mp3 player wasn't a matter of innovation.
You sure ramble a lot. Anyways, you miss the whole point about small devices. I don't give two shits about your experience with small devices--that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about the design challenges that come with designing new and innovative devices.It is, well, what I said before. Smaller isn't necessarily better. Has it occured to you that, instead of making the whole player smaller, you might make the technology fit into a smaller area making it possible to add other things or to add more protective layers or something. When the device starts to get so small it's hard to control, they've gone too far. Notice that RCA now pushes the Lyra and no longer the Kazoo (or whatever it was.) The Lyra is perfect sized. They did precicely what I was just saying with that. Same technology, device designed to actually be useful to the customer. Reminds me of a show I saw once where they joked about the cellphone designs getting so small. The person pulled out a tiny little thing about the size of a chip and someone bumped them, knocking the little chip sized thing out of their fingers and into their mouth.
Wow, so when someone comes up with a time machine, we can't call it innovative because little old me already thought of it? Since you don't even know how the media is manufactured, who are you to judge how difficult such a media would be to manufacture to acceptable yields? All sorts of inventions--the rocket engine, the tiltrotor, the airborne laser--have been easy concepts to imagine, but extremely difficult to implement, yet I would consider all three of these innovations.And when I said blue laser was the next step, I didn't mean for DVD standards, I meant for optical media. It just makes sense. Infrared has a wavelength too big to make it noticably more dense, so, use a higher frequency laser. Which part of this is not obvious? Sorry, I refuse to call that innovative because even I thought of it a long time ago, and I know next to nothing about manufacturing a media.
BTW, a mini-cd is a cd. Perhaps you mistook me to mean mini-disc? I was just making a point with a joke while I was at it. It was a smaller, higher tech cd player after all (it even would play mini audio cds should one actually want to make a 24-minute cd rather than spending a few minutes to make some encodes and get 3+ hours.)
When did I say no R&D? Please do quote the exact time and place I said that. No, what I have said is that making technology smaller is innovative, making the product itself smaller is not necessarily. There's a difference, but, you are bound up purely looking at the surface of the product. If I set my RCA Kazoo (assuming it weren't dead) next to a MuVo, the Kazoo is smaller by a bit, yet, the MuVo holds 2x the kazoo's max space (with an expensive memory card plugged in) and you can plug the MuVo into a USB port as a flash drive. So, because it's smaller by that bit, the Kazoo is better?xonik said:You just can't see the big picture, can you?How isn't it? If it weren't an innovative step, then anyone could have made an MP3 player that small, without R&D.
Blue laser isn't innovative because there is basically no REAL new technology or anything. It's just the simple obvious next step. Like the idea of a MP3 CD player. Stick some mp3s on a cd and you have 700MB in a $35 (walmart) player. That's innovative? Maybe your definition is a little looser than mine, but, I require that they actually invent something instead of connecting CD audio players with the already existing MP3 decoding capabilities of any other MP3 player. The only way you could call it innovative was the fact that the first people to do it were... well, the first people to do it. Given time, any decent company would have come up with it.Wow, so when someone comes up with a time machine, we can't call it innovative because little old me already thought of it?
I said I don't know all about it. I know enough of how it works to understand the problems and how easily it was to come up with the idea of increasing the frequency of the laser. Probably the biggest problem lay in making the machines to create discs of such a high density. Perhaps those machines are, in fact, innovative, but, that means the machines are, not the discs.Since you don't even know how the media is manufactured, who are you to judge how difficult such a media would be to manufacture to acceptable yields?
You didn't. That's not the point. What you did say was that making the smallest product on the market was trivial,Nazo said:When did I say no R&D? Please do quote the exact time and place I said that.
It's not that easy to just make a device that small, yet you say it is.Has it occured to you that, instead of making the whole player smaller, you might make the technology fit into a smaller area making it possible to add other things or to add more protective layers or something. When the device starts to get so small it's hard to control, they've gone too far. [...] Same technology, device designed to actually be useful to the customer.
How do you define technology? Anyways, it takes ingenuity and a real integration of technologies to make an innovative product. Take the Sony VAIO PCG-X505 notebook. They had to integrate an extremely small motherboard, a very slim battery, a very slim keyboard, and still meet performance and usability requirements. The fact that they shrunk the motherboard to only a couple of square inches (http://www.dynamism.com/x505/keyboard.gif) is innovative alone. Look beyond the dimensions and realize the design challenges that were accomplished with the shrinking process, and you'll see how products like these are innovative.No, what I have said is that making technology smaller is innovative, making the product itself smaller is not necessarily.
Well, let's see where this whole stupid discussion started. It started with me saying that products that break size barriers are innovative. I don't care about your Kazoo or whatever, so stop putting words in my mouth and try to stay on task, okay?So, because it's smaller by that bit, the Kazoo is better?
So you consider only revolutionary steps to be innovations. Interesting. Most people would disagree (as would the dictionary definition), but okay, I see where you're coming from now.Blue laser isn't innovative because there is basically no REAL new technology or anything. It's just the simple obvious next step.
I'm sorry but that's no different than red laser to blue laser. The Redbook standard for CD audio defines the way that CD players read and decode PCM-encoded audio discs. The MP3 specification is merely another form of encoding and compression, which piggybacks on the CD filesystem. So really, CD audio and MP3 audio are just two different approaches to the same thing. Likewise, the progression from red laser to blue laser is merely evolutionary as well, but I consider both evolutions to be innovations in their own right.I require that they actually invent something instead of connecting CD audio players with the already existing MP3 decoding capabilities of any other MP3 player. The only way you could call it innovative was the fact that the first people to do it were... well, the first people to do it. Given time, any decent company would have come up with it.
If the technology was ready, surely a bigger company with more R&D money would have picked them up.Unfortunately, as has been discussed, brand recognition is a painful fact of life.
The PS2 is doing so well because a majority of people find its games--not the console hardware--to be better. And isn't that the whole point? The quality, variety and enjoyability of games are in my opinion the number one priority when selecting a console. It looks like most console owners seem to agree.Why is the PS2 still doing so well? As has been mentioned, XBox and Gamecube have better capabilities... The graphics are subpar, the sound is stereo in almost every case -- need I go on? Companies know sony, so they make games for PS2. Not so hard going from designing games for a PSX to designing them for a PS2 either. Yes, it's newer and more powerful, but, they are similar enough in the actual way they work that the PS2 can even play PSX games... In other words, the PS2 does not have better support due to being a better system than the XBox or the Gamecube...
Okay, but who went through the research and trial and error to make the production of the discs feasible? Sony, Philips, et al.Perhaps those machines are, in fact, innovative, but, that means the machines are, not the discs.
Actually someone kind of beat them to that idea. PDAs. Same idea, larger scale so they could get more power and such into it. I guess you could call it a little of a innovation to combine the two ideas, but, I wouldn't go around shouting about what an incredible idea it is.xonik said:Take the Sony VAIO PCG-X505 notebook. They had to integrate an extremely small motherboard, a very slim battery, a very slim keyboard, and still meet performance and usability requirements.
My points was simply this: if size alone were innovative, the kazoo is better than all those other mp3 players out there. Innovation is based more on the simple technological trend that has been going on for decades (centuries if you count machines) where they make things smaller and more efficient. Innovation is going beyond trends and such.It started with me saying that products that break size barriers are innovative. I don't care about your Kazoo or whatever, so stop putting words in my mouth and try to stay on task, okay?
Yes. It is. In other words, sony made a worse product that sells more because of brandname in essense. Everything it does could be done better elsewhere (just imagine if sega hadn't caved and made a dreamcast 2? Sega really knows what they are doing when it comes to making hardware and could design circles around sony in the console world if they knew what they were doing outside of the hardware/software part of making a console...)The PS2 is doing so well because a majority of people find its games--not the console hardware--to be better. And isn't that the whole point?
So? Why does it matter that those people did it versus some generic company? They had the money and a lot of the technology already in place, it was logical that someone such as them would be first to come up with it. Had they not thought of it, easily someone else would have. I don't know about you, but, if I hear they are working on something like that and I'm part of the way through coming up with such a thing myself, I'd be looking very seriously into finding a way to change what I've been working on to something else because how can you compete with them?who went through the research and trial and error to make the production of the discs feasible? Sony, Philips, et al.
It's not the idea. Like I said earlier, my idea to build a time machine is useless. It's the execution and the creative engineering needed to make it work. A PDA is of no comparison because the thermal and power demands of a notebook-class processor are much higher. Because of this, much more care was necessary in the design. Beyond that, a notebook motherboard has more features and is much more complex than that of a PDA. To fit all the stuff they fit into what was essentially a PDA motherboard was quite an accomplishment.Nazo said:Actually someone kind of beat them to that idea. PDAs. Same idea, larger scale so they could get more power and such into it. I guess you could call it a little of a innovation to combine the two ideas, but, I wouldn't go around shouting about what an incredible idea it is.
So, by your logic, holographic discs will not be innovative, because the trend for greater storage density has gone on for decades.My points was simply this: if size alone were innovative, the kazoo is better than all those other mp3 players out there. Innovation is based more on the simple technological trend that has been going on for decades (centuries if you count machines) where they make things smaller and more efficient. Innovation is going beyond trends and such.
Worse how? Slower hardware? It's all about the games, my friend. Games are what matters in consoles, not the hardware used to make them run.Yes. It is. In other words, sony made a worse product that sells more because of brandname in essense.
Uh oh, now how are you going to back up the claim that Sega's design department was/is more competent than Sony's? I don't know how you could show evidence besides using the tired and unreliable clockspeed vs. performance paradigm.Everything it does could be done better elsewhere (just imagine if sega hadn't caved and made a dreamcast 2? Sega really knows what they are doing when it comes to making hardware and could design circles around sony in the console world if they knew what they were doing outside of the hardware/software part of making a console...)
So they did it FIRST. That's what innovation is all about.So? Why does it matter that those people did it versus some generic company? They had the money and a lot of the technology already in place, it was logical that someone such as them would be first to come up with it. Had they not thought of it, easily someone else would have.
PrkChpXprss said:<stupid post>
I don't think the cell will take over the world, but maybe it's successor.. or it's successor's successor:
Cell gives way to 2nd gen processor, codenamed Tissue. Everyone raves about how great Tissue is and how much more work it can do than Cell, and even the mighty x86. Everyone buys Tissue. After making money hand over fist, Sony continues its work and releases it's 3rd gen cell architecture -- the Organ. Now Organ is a mighty technological triumph indeed. All people flock to Organ, and by now, the scientific community has migrated systems from the now archaic x86 to the Organ processor. Some scientists put many Organs together, ultimately forming the world's first multi Organ(ic) computer. People are amazed. multi-organic computer begins to learn, becomes intelligent, sentient, and ultimately takes over the world by exterminating the very individuals responsible for creating it.
Ok, so yes, the Cell will take over the world.
</stupid post>
I don't deny this. I am saying it's another logical next step type thing. Something in between PDAs and normal laptops...xonik said:A PDA is of no comparison because the thermal and power demands of a notebook-class processor are much higher. Because of this, much more care was necessary in the design.
I'm sorry, what? Holographic? Frankly, if they find a way to TRULY project an image into three dimensions in the meaning of the term holographic, yes, that would be innovative, because currently it's not only NOT the next step, it's not even physically possible by known means (excluding some cheap obvious attempt, I'm talking about the real thing.) Are you perhaps meaning the FMD idea? It's NOT just higher density. It's finding a whole new way to work with the laser to remove the limitation on the number of layers. I suppose it's inevitable someone would have thought of it eventually, but, I'm going to call it innovative because it involves doing new things in new ways instead of just simply improving the old (like the way DVD improved on CD just by increasing density and managing -- just barely to get a second layer.)So, by your logic, holographic discs will not be innovative, because the trend for greater storage density has gone on for decades.
Ah, but, you forgot something HORRIBLY important. Sony doesn't make too many games at all. Slap sony's name on an xbox, and suddenly you have better games on the xbox. In other words, sony is making a worse product, just using their big name in the console industry to coast through.Worse how? Slower hardware? It's all about the games, my friend. Games are what matters in consoles, not the hardware used to make them run.
Buy a dreamcast. They cost something like $20 if you can find one. I didn't say they were innovative just because they made a better product, it was a comment about the quality of sony's products versus the competition.Uh oh, now how are you going to back up the claim that Sega's design department was/is more competent than Sony's? I don't know how you could show evidence besides using the tired and unreliable clockspeed vs. performance paradigm.
Oh no, it's a bonafide laptop in terms of computing power, but they shrunk it down. That's the accomplishment.Nazo said:I don't deny this. I am saying it's another logical next step type thing. Something in between PDAs and normal laptops...
Oh, I thought that's what you were talking about,I'm sorry, what? Holographic? Frankly, if they find a way to TRULY project an image into three dimensions in the meaning of the term holographic, yes, that would be innovative, because currently it's not only NOT the next step, it's not even physically possible by known means (excluding some cheap obvious attempt, I'm talking about the real thing.)
Okay, neither of us denies the innovation of FMD. It is blue laser that this tired debate is about.Are you perhaps meaning the FMD idea? It's NOT just higher density. It's finding a whole new way to work with the laser to remove the limitation on the number of layers. I suppose it's inevitable someone would have thought of it eventually, but, I'm going to call it innovative because it involves doing new things in new ways instead of just simply improving the old (like the way DVD improved on CD just by increasing density and managing -- just barely to get a second layer.)
It doesn't matter to me whether or not a console company makes games for their console, just as I would expect with a computer. The quality of the software/games is more important. Also, how do you figure that Sony makes a worse product?Ah, but, you forgot something HORRIBLY important. Sony doesn't make too many games at all. Slap sony's name on an xbox, and suddenly you have better games on the xbox. In other words, sony is making a worse product, just using their big name in the console industry to coast through.
I don't know what planet you live on, but here on Earth the X-Box (and GameCube) is said to be significantly more powerful and easier to program for than the PS2. If you don't believe me, wait till RE4 comes out for PS2 and look at it side-by-side with the GameCube build.xonik said:how do you figure that Sony makes a worse product?
We'll see. Remember that IBM is involved in this project too, and they make some very good server processors.Clownboat said:I don't think AMD or Intel have any reason to be concerned. If anyone else besides them knew how to make the most powerful desktop chips, they wouldn't be the only big players in the market.
Apparently that hasn't stopped the developers from making some great games.I don't know what planet you live on, but here on Earth the X-Box (and GameCube) is said to be significantly more powerful and easier to program for than the PS2.
It probably is. However, with more PS2s out there than any other current-generation console, I'd expect that.In addition, most of Sony's products (especially any that include lasers, or any moving parts for that matter) are unreliable, non-durable, and have a history of mechanical failure. We're already seeing this with their newest invention, the PSP. To say Sony is a slipshod manufacturer is not exactly considered an "opinion" anymore; it's historically documented.
Chemistry 101--aluminum, when exposed to oxygen, forms a protective layer of aluminum oxide, which is much more difficult to scratch than aluminum in a vacuum.iddqd said:Yeah, the MP3 player is made out of soft aluminum. What kind of an idiot would make that design decision? Fuck, even plastic is less prone to scratches and dents than that shit.
Xbox is made by a company who has never been in the console industry before and who has very little gaming experience before it. Gamecube is... Well, after the nintendo 64 (don't you DARE try to tell me that peice of junk was worthy, they really screwed up on that one...) people haven't exactly been flocking to it, and mostly you really do see family safe games such as starfox/etc. IMO, RE is just with the assumption a few parents would like to play and they already have teh system for their kid or something. Plus, there are admittedly a few people with a gamecube who aren't children just because there are a few rare good things.xonik said:Apparently that hasn't stopped the developers from making some great games.
Er, I looked that up. Nope, you must be remembering wrong or something, because I have seen aluminum heatsinks that I could scratch with just about anything, including a knife. Unless the charts I looked up are wrong (feel free to find better ones, google isn't working with me on this one and keeps giving me jewlers) Aluminum Oxide (AL2O3) is a 9 on moh's scale. Can't scratch that easily.... I mean, seriously, about the only thing you might have around the house likely to scratch it if that were true would be sandpaper (made with the cheap synthetic diamond dust.) According to the tables I read, a steel knife would be somewhere in the area of 6 or so, depending on how much carbon is mixed in of course. Anyway, chances are against it being pure aluminum. More likely than anything else it's an aluminum alloy. I think that it's supposed to be pretty unrealistic to try to make pure aluminum.Chemistry 101--aluminum, when exposed to oxygen, forms a protective layer of aluminum oxide, which is much more difficult to scratch than aluminum in a vacuum.
this is exactly how this is goin down in fact you can already see it in the pc market now. games are becoming almost completely GPU dependent just like consoles are...the cell processor is nothing more than a gpu that doubles as a cpu and i doubt it will be anymore powerful than what were already seeing in the current pc enviroment i doubt itll have nearly as much power as people are anticipating (think dreamcast) i dont see how sony could possibly sell a console at $400 or so thats has $5000 worth of parts and technology in it...it just wont happen. i can only speculate but i bet that it wont even be as powerful as our current gen mediocre gaming pc (somewhere in the range of a 2.4ghz p4 and a 6600gt). as far as cell processor technology comin to pcs i HIGHLY doubt it i do however believe that pcs will eventually split into to categories gaming and business the business branch will evolve into a mainboard only with built in cpu and a built in gpu that handles very minimum graphics (think mini itx on crack) and the gaming pc genre will develop into a mainboard that has no cpu at all it will have a built in monitor port but no video card or memory there will be internal graphics processors that will connect to the motherboard kinda like giant memory chips and youll be able to easily scale it by adding or removing the chips these chips will use the memory directly...basically cutting out the cpu and FSB completely because it will all be controlled by the GPU. if you think these ideas are a result of a late night CRACK benge then you just wait cause i bet you ill be right......instructions have to be carefully ordered to work well (think nv30 here)