Will hype kill the PPU.

[quadnad]

I completely agree with the [H] articles so far.

 

[merlin704]

Whoa R1ckCa1n, that is going to make Terra's head explode anyways. I quit posting in this forum (almost ) because it's all about Terra and his Ageia propaganda. Any thread that mentions the words "Ati, nVidia or Havok" gets closed. Everyone here is on Terra's side even the mods.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Whoa R1ckCa1n, that is going to make Terra's head explode anyways. I quit posting in this forum (almost ) because it's all about Terra and his Ageia propaganda. Any thread that mentions the words "Ati, nVidia or Havok" gets closed. Everyone here is on Terra's side even the mods.

I wouldn't say everyone is on his side based on the fact most of his threads get locked and I have seen comments from mods in other threads that lead me to believe otherwise. I equate him to the Nvidia Focus Group guy, Rollo, who ended up getting banned. All in due time!

 

[SuperGee]

This thread is evidence of how over hyped the PPU is on this forum. We have yet to see anything other than a few tech demos, promises of games, and a whole lot of nothing but hype.

Hype? see it at a larger scale. So far I know HardOCP is the only forum with a PPU section. A sign off low Hype. A great resourse to bring up the PPU standing to the latest updates on the situation.Tom's hardware dumps PPU treads in the Memory section? They take PPU not seriously only the dog to hit with a stick. Other Hardware forums there isn't much talk about PPU.
Keep in mind there is a large Red and green fan base. A fan base witch has a large urge to alsmost automaticly defects to the GPU camp. So another factor to keep the hype down.
Altho terra stands not allone there are more people on his side. But most people have make up there minds now in the early stages. And are mostly against it. So Hype not at all a lot off argumentet and non argumente or just GPU/PPU fan base anti/pro ageia stuff. Where Ageia don't take the lead in. So not over hyped. I wonder if there is any hype at all.

But a killer app. using gameplay Physx could kick in hard. hype or no hype.
Possibly CF revolution. But we have to wait how that turn out. I agree ageia needs a killerapp.

[H]ard|OCP published some great articles around where physics is today and what it MIGHT mean in the future. For everyone in denial or simply missed the articles, look below.

What is the common theme here?

That they are neutral and are waiting how it unfolds in the future. With some free specuating. There opinion as it stands now.

Waitin for more games waiting for the killer app.
Games wil deside if ageia pull it off or not in the few years to come.
It is not desided yet if they kick the bucket get long term competive or take the lead for years to come.

But I notice a lot of people don't look in to the future but take strongly there stance on the situation is now. Wich include Graw, BOS and CF:CT game demo. And base there Preference on that alone. That's a hype killer. This very short sighted people think ageia is dead already.

If there was any hype before, its now gone. Wich is good. New games look even more positive. It all about the games to come out.

I get more a overall feeling of no hype at all. i think [H]ardocp is the more neutral stance.
No review only articles.

The biggest point in this matter that [H] and Devs are very more aware that physX and hardware physics is a long term adoption so it takes time in years. Where Gamers/masses few it mostly on a very short term few of perspective with exeptions in eithere way.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

But a killer app. using gameplay Physx could kick in hard. hype or no hype.
Possibly CF revolution. But we have to wait how that turn out. I agree ageia needs a killerapp.

This is 100 percent correct and the "killer app" is what will make me buy one. CF will not be that killer app for sure.

My biggest problem with the "hype" on this forum is there are some who bless this as though it already works and incourages people to go buy a worthless peice of hardware (at this point). Funny thing is the people who will most likely need a dedicated PPU are the ones too cheap to buy a good GPU which makes me wonder who will spend 250-300 more for a PPU. I would like to make sure people understand there is more than Ageia. Some people just have a hard time with that fact.

 

[dotK]

Will hype kill the PPU? I don't think hype will kill it but it sure has left a sour taste in some peoples' mouths. Recall the launch of the Phantom Menace. The amount of hype built up around the movie was IMMENSE. Star Wars was EVERYWHERE due to loads of ad campaigns and promotions. The only way the movie could have lived up to the hype was if it would have been the best movie of all time, by a longshot, and completely redefined cinema in a way that made all other movies seem like a thing of the past. It was more or less impossible for it to be anything but a dissapointment.

Of course, the movie fell far short of most expectations. Episode I was not a fantastic movie and definitely had flaws, but many people made it out to be much worse than it actually was. This is probably because their dissapointment exaggerated what they didn't like about the movie and the dissapointment itself also contributed to the negative image of it. Had there not been so much hype surrounding it, people would have (IMO) thought the Phantom Menace was a bit better of a movie.

Now, Ageia's PPU has but a sliver of the hype that Episode I did but I think the same exact thing is going on. The PPU has some serious flaws that take away from its appeal but there is also an element of dissapointment that is making the PPU seem worse than it actually it. People thought that the PPU would allow for all these cool things, but then reality hit.

It's been about 6 months since the launch and there is no compelling reason to buy it. Advocates of the PPU have been telling everyone to wait a few more months and then it will be worth it. The only problem is, this has been going on for a few months and when the games that people are supposed to be waiting for are finally released they are a dissapointment (GRAW). You can only tell people to wait a little bit for so long until they dismiss the product. Ageia's PPU was released too early and it's currently selling hopes and promises of physics, not actual physics. What you get if you buy it now are some tech demos and half-assed physics.

Of course, if a few awesome games come out that supported the PPU then the situation could change drastically. But, when will those games come out and to what extent will the PPU be supported? If the games come out in mid 2007 and/or support limited physics, then it will be too little too late.

 

[SuperGee]

This is 100 percent correct and the "killer app" is what will make me buy one.

Well the dev support is large CF:R and UT2003 are not the only games wich can add or be the key to ageia sucses or not. But could be a larger part of that sucses.

CF will not be that killer app for sure.

Wishfull thinkin? Of course every Dev has alway's the opertunity to screw his Projects. because the lot of pittfalls dev's encounter, if you know something about game design and production( planning) and what can be done in time and go wrong. They could screw it up or not make it a uniek PhysX game that apeal to alot more people then wich is now the case. Graw will be forgotten. Not by me I like it.
But keep in mind effectphysics will give nothing more to the mix then eyecandy that needs some Physx computational power. Very welcome but not revolutionair. So but don't count UT2007 out yet.
Where Gameplay Physx give nextgen games a new larger gameply infuenced by gameplay Physic. Some opertunity to intruduce some original gameplay based on Physics. Orginality is what laks behind in this industry. Because orignality is hard to achieve and orginality comes with also a higher risk.
UT2007 will do Ageia good because its a high profile game.
CF:R can do good to ageia because it supports some uniek Physx features on a much higher level that impact gameplay on a large scale. And depends large on the hardware part. Wich the competiton can't touch for some time in the near future. Where Havok Fx will be effect Physic only in its first incarnation.

My biggest problem with the "hype" on this forum is there are some who bless this as though it already works and incourages people to go buy a worthless peice of hardware (at this point).

It's not wise to buy the hardware before the games you like are out wich supports it.
But for every Terra post there are more counter posts with a 180 view on the topic. wich will be read to. So everyone who read this. can make up his own mind with his own critical read and logical sense. And if he buy a PPU now and don't like Graw BOS CF:CT Then its there own fault. Plus all the other negative previes review ignored. Keeps people away.

Funny thing is the people who will most likely need a dedicated PPU are the ones too cheap to buy a good GPU which makes me wonder who will spend 250-300 more for a PPU.

This is where you are very wrong.
The ageia Triangle is CPU PPU GPU. The time for each frame is split between those three chips. A low budged CPU and a low budged GPU take more time out of the frame time leaving less over for the PPU. A PPU is for crancking up the Physics features a CPU can't handle. So for high settings for a new game. So a PPU Game has a extra very heavy game load escpecialy for the PPU. But this load must be supported by a powerfull CPU and GPU so PPU get the time to do his thing.
A PPU to offload some minor PhysX of a CPU is a wast of money a OC will suffice to compensate that.
This extensive PhysX load is on top of a already heavy game load for optimum game setings.
My opinion PPU is High-end product and in the first years For high-end gamers. The one wich go for 512MB High-end cards. The ones that go for Dual core and Dx10 hardware to play with in optimum spects. Wich have the budged for it.
The budged gamers don't have a need for PPU because a lot off setting must be put to low. CF:CT Gamedemo. Its already heavy without PPU features and with or without hardware enabled. Is a good example that PPU is not for budged.

I would like to make sure people understand there is more than Ageia. Some people just have a hard time with that fact.

True for Crysis a Dualcore is needed. And there will come a nice HavokFX game to. But that a long wait.
For in the near future there will be only Ageia They are in the lead with there solution and games. havok FX geting started at first in 2007 wenn the dev support getting momentum, then waiting for the first HavokFX games.
Wich will be effects Physics only. Havok FX forced that to not support on gameplay capable GPU for there first take on it. effectphysics only.

Some kind of complex performance comparing can be done with real games. But Games supporting both would be a rare thing.

Now, Ageia's PPU has but a sliver of the hype that Episode I did but I think the same exact thing is going on. The PPU has some serious flaws that take away from its appeal but there is also an element of dissapointment that is making the PPU seem worse than it actually it. People thought that the PPU would allow for all these cool things, but then reality hit.

You mean Graw. Yes that killed the pre hype. But it whill not be the last game. There will be more. Oh, what you just look forward 2 weeks or a month. Game industry works in years. Yes I hate waiting to.

It's been about 6 months since the launch and there is no compelling reason to buy it.

No but getting closer. BTW I count from when Graw is released in may. Make no sense in buying PPU before. But its a good step to Make PPU good avaible on game release date. Because I like graw. and bougth PPU for it. I like the Havok in the standard game to.

Advocates of the PPU have been telling everyone to wait a few more months and then it will be worth it.

Months are games made in a few months Oh yes 2D tetris. A litle Patch that could be.
Allthou with each couple of months some of those 65+ supporting games comes out. But keep in mind the important ones are only a few who makes a difference.
Also know that ageia has a lot of pre work done as putting up the Dev support years before Graw came out. So a lot of those years of in develment 65+ games are in mid or end develpment stage. Because PhysX API is some time before the hardware release avaible. Where Havok FX is just current time deliverd and Dev's must start on it.

The only problem is, this has been going on for a few months and when the games that people are supposed to be waiting for are finally released they are a dissapointment (GRAW).

There will be a lot more dissapointment the coming two years because not all 65 games can be killer apps. As you no in this industrie a lot off crap is released but that is in general and also gamers game preferences. So out of each 3 to 9 games something good could be between them. its all about the killer aps. I aint gonna buy every game wich would be 10 a month. But only the good ones and the kind of games I like hopefully a PhysX game will be between them. And then all change. Curently 6 supportive games are out claims someone.
Graw of course. Wich I like.
BOS I played out and also like. PhysX Patch.
CFCT is a game demo so doesn't count much.
So I miss some?
So the killer app may be nr 20 or 33 or 12
Favorites are UT2K7 and CF:R

You can only tell people to wait a little bit for so long until they dismiss the product. Ageia's PPU was released too early and it's currently selling hopes and promises of physics, not actual physics. What you get if you buy it now are some tech demos and half-assed physics.

Well its just not time to buy a PPU for the grand audience. But are people waiting for PPU no the are waiting on games that use it to a decent level. If there are games that people like wich happen to use PPU than people might buy one who have the budged for it.
it´s about the games. Games take 2 to 5 years to make. Waiting for games is nothing new it takes a lot of time. First Play the games or demo's of it, read reviews and then make up your mind to go for it or not. In time a PCI-E version would be aviable

Of course, if a few awesome games come out that supported the PPU then the situation could change drastically. But, when will those games come out and to what extent will the PPU be supported? If the games come out in mid 2007 and/or support limited physics, then it will be too little too late.

It will be just in time. So if it take so long for PhysX games Do you think HavokFX games comes instantly. They take just as long. Depends how far wich one is in development and when they start slapping on FX or take it into game design.
The havok FX API is just out or must come out. Devs are starting to take that up wich takes also some time and then starting on the games and Patches.

 

[Chernobyl1]

Forget the hype, Terra killed the PPU
Given that its not even borderline worth getting one, he has tipped the scales in the "definitely am not getting one unless it really is good" direction, quite simply so I have less association with him lol.

Because you have behaved so badly here Terra, I checked out the other threads you have 'participated' in and many of those you tried to ruin or did ruin as well.
Many people have told you to disappear but you continued to troll.
I feel the need to say this to you because you deserve it.

Nearly everyone has taken a lot of flak from you and most of us have done our best to remain respectful and polite while you have been rude, obnoxious and clearly biased!
For the mostpart, it isnt what you say, its the way that you say it. At other times you are blindly wrong and simply wont let yourself see the reality due to your own rage.
You deliberately bring other points into the conversation that arent part of the discussion so you can win on some other level. Why you need to win though is beyond me.
I can analyze you much further but I will spare you the humiliation.
Suffice to say though, your world revolves around one thing, You!
I wish you luck in your struggle with humanity.

If the PhysX card does become worthwhile I will surely get one, but seriously Terra, its not worth owning right now and you have been ripped off.

Edit: ...in my humble opinion.
I dont want to get banned for saying the above and will take any chastising with grace.
If I do get banned though, its been worth it.

I found some earlier threads over 4 months ago where your contribution was good and well accepted.
I'm hopeful you will return to those days.

 

[Terra]

This thread is evidence of how over hyped the PPU is on this forum. We have yet to see anything other than a few tech demos, promises of games, and a whole lot of nothing but hype.

[H]ard|OCP published some great articles around where physics is today and what it MIGHT mean in the future. For everyone in denial or simply missed the articles, look below.

Agei's PhysX Needs a Killer App 03-29-2006

Bottom Line:


Ageia PhysX & You - 05-07-2006

Bottom Line:



Effects Physics & Gameplay Physics Explored - 07-10-2006

Bottom Line:



What is the common theme here?

edit: I left the ATI article from [H]ard|OCP so Terra's head wouldn't explode

Now try and do the same with GPU-physics...

Terra - And find the "common" thread

 

[Terra]

Whoa R1ckCa1n, that is going to make Terra's head explode anyways. I quit posting in this forum (almost ) because it's all about Terra and his Ageia propaganda. Any thread that mentions the words "Ati, nVidia or Havok" gets closed. Everyone here is on Terra's side even the mods.

That is just a load of bullshit.
I know it, you know it and the mods know it...

Terra - You fail, please try again...

 

[Terra]

I wouldn't say everyone is on his side based on the fact most of his threads get locked and I have seen comments from mods in other threads that lead me to believe otherwise. I equate him to the Nvidia Focus Group guy, Rollo, who ended up getting banned. All in due time!

I have no contact with AGEIA, and I even posted my reciept for my purchase of the PPU...how about you do the same thing for the graphics cards?

Terra - An ATI-troll calling me a troll?

 

[koopaGG]

That is just a load of bullshit.
I know it, you know it and the mods know it...

Terra - You fail, please try again...

If I had a dime for everytime you double posted...

Will hype kill the PPU? Hasn't it already? How many people do you know who own one? Maybe that will change.

 

[Terra]

Now, Ageia's PPU has but a sliver of the hype that Episode I did but I think the same exact thing is going on. The PPU has some serious flaws that take away from its appeal but there is also an element of dissapointment that is making the PPU seem worse than it actually it. People thought that the PPU would allow for all these cool things, but then reality hit.

Please elborate on the highligthed?

Terra...

 

[griff30]

Forget the hype, Terra killed the PPU
Given that its not even borderline worth getting one, he has tipped the scales in the "definitely am not getting one unless it really is good" direction, quite simply so I have less association with him lol.

Because you have behaved so badly here Terra, I checked out the other threads you have 'participated' in and many of those you tried to ruin or did ruin as well.
Many people have told you to disappear but you continued to troll.
I feel the need to say this to you because you deserve it.

Nearly everyone has taken a lot of flak from you and most of us have done our best to remain respectful and polite while you have been rude, obnoxious and clearly biased!
For the mostpart, it isnt what you say, its the way that you say it. At other times you are blindly wrong and simply wont let yourself see the reality due to your own rage.
You deliberately bring other points into the conversation that arent part of the discussion so you can win on some other level. Why you need to win though is beyond me.
I can analyze you much further but I will spare you the humiliation.
Suffice to say though, your world revolves around one thing, You!
I wish you luck in your struggle with humanity.
I found some earlier threads over 4 months ago where your contribution was good and well accepted.
I'm hopeful you will return to those days.

Well stated.
Did you know he has made it to Wikipedia? Look up : HardOCP Quote:
"Terra - Resident forum troll."
It's his character get it? He has to live up to it.
There is an ignore button too, which hae has time and again told people about.
In his defence, someone has to be the devil's advocate, and he does with such candor.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Terra - An ATI-troll calling me a troll?

There is a good ole saying that goes like this:

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks".

edit: My loyalty to ATI is based on the FACT they have the best image quality and speed, blended. I don't go running around the forums spreading lies or even stretching the truth about a products I use. Show me a retail game that Agiea is required for effects and gameplay physics that can't be done without dedicated hardware; opps there isn't one. Your problem is you can't handle the truth that right now Agiea is a waste of money. Sure it has interesting potential but you also have Nvidia, ATI, and Havok all working towards the same goal and is still many many months away. Could there be a reason everyone is 6-12 months out except the one small startup who built a peice of hardware based on old processes? My money is on ATI and Nvidia since they have the deepest pockets, are 10000 times more advanced in making silicon and have a much better chance of being in business this time next year.

 

[Chernobyl1]

Well stated.
Did you know he has made it to Wikipedia? Look up : HardOCP Quote:
"Terra - Resident forum troll."
It's his character get it? He has to live up to it.
There is an ignore button too, which hae has time and again told people about.
In his defence, someone has to be the devil's advocate, and he does with such candor.

omg
I wont put him on ignore as I want to catch everything he says
I may create my own Bio of him too.

 

[merlin704]

That is just a load of bullshit.
I know it, you know it and the mods know it...

Terra - You fail, please try again...

LOL Are you serious? Me and a few other members have been reprimanded by the mods because they seem to think we are the ones who are "dumping" on you. When in fact it is you who is dumping on everyone here who doesn't see eye-to-eye with your Ageia beliefs.

 

[koopaGG]

LOL Are you serious? Me and a few other members have been reprimanded by the mods because they seem to think we are the ones who are "dumping" on you. When in fact it is you who is dumping on everyone here who doesn't see eye-to-eye with your Ageia beliefs.

It is quite amazing that someone who double, tripple, or even quadruple posts almost every thread he posts in hasn't had 1 warning, 1 temporary ban or anything like that. I guarantee he's been reported over 100 times. He must be kissing up to someone.

I still don't understand why someone chooses to defend Ageia with every ounce of keyboard energy they have. Maybe one day it will be worth $300, maybe one day it will do physics in a game that will actually enhance the gameplay or do more then shoot particles all over. Until then, the Ageia PhysX is a waste of money. If you purchased it then you need to send it back and get your money back, because you got screwed.

 

[Terra]

There is a good ole saying that goes like this:

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks".

edit: My loyalty to ATI is based on the FACT they have the best image quality and speed, blended. I don't go running around the forums spreading lies or even stretching the truth about a products I use. Show me a retail game that Agiea is required for effects and gameplay physics that can't be done without dedicated hardware; opps there isn't one. Your problem is you can't handle the truth that right now Agiea is a waste of money. Sure it has interesting potential but you also have Nvidia, ATI, and Havok all working towards the same goal and is still many many months away. Could there be a reason everyone is 6-12 months out except the one small startup who built a peice of hardware based on old processes? My money is on ATI and Nvidia since they have the deepest pockets, are 10000 times more advanced in making silicon and have a much better chance of being in business this time next year.

You forgot my post #50...

Terra - Just a friendly reminder...

 

[R1ckCa1n]

You forgot my post #50...

Terra - Just a friendly reminder...

Glad you did the typical ignore the post and go another direction. Maybe you need to re-read
THIS

 

[Chernobyl1]

You forgot my post #50...

Terra - Just a friendly reminder...

in post 50, you said
'Terra - And find the "common" thread'
from these 3 articles I'll go through the common thread

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTAyMCwsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA1MiwsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA5NywsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0

The first one is titled
"Ageia's PhysX Needs a Killer App"

The second says in the first paragraph
"If you are thinking of buying an Ageia PhysX card here soon, save your hard earned cash or invest it elsewhere in your system."
and at the end...
"PhysX delivers nothing worth the purchase price"

The third one says
"If any of you have played Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter with the PhysX processor keep in mind that this is a very poor representation of effects physics."

Common to those articles is the dissatisfaction you would feel if you bought a PhysX card now.
The potential for this card and use of other ways to accelerate physics is huge but they havent been able to deliver yet.
The product shouldnt be on sale yet, instead they should have kept everyones mouths watering until the real release of "the Killer App".

I hope its as good as you do

 

[SuperGee]

Nice they getting ontopic.

Common to those articles is the dissatisfaction you would feel if you bought a PhysX card now.
The potential for this card and use of other ways to accelerate physics is huge but they havent been able to deliver yet.
The product shouldnt be on sale yet, instead they should have kept everyones mouths watering until the real release of "the Killer App".

I hope its as good as you do

First
havok games none present and when does the first one come out en when does a highprofile HavokFX game comes. Do we speak with in a year or years for a important Havok FX game?

in the mean time Ageia has a year or to to get some kind of a sucses. Maybe enough to stay in the market next to the GPU solution wich will come.

As alway's first the hardware as there is already software that uses it. And till the killer app a more minor level or low profile games will come before the killer app.
Lets wait and see how it turns out.

 

[Chernobyl1]

Ya know, if Aegia had sold it as final(ish) hardware but for preview only, it could have worked out much better. Perhaps even offer an upgrade to the final product for free or enough to cover costs, if changes are necessary.
No one would part with cash unless they need it to develop, review or are a true fanatic/early adopter.

That would have kept expectations much lower and allowed us to concentrate on what it could do.
The 'feel' for PhysX would be much healthier.

Remember the leadup to the Geforce card on NVidias site and the countdown to release?
That had us talking for ages and the delivered product was worthy.
Nearly everyone I knew was waiting til Zero Time to see what they were releasing.
That was how to launch a product!

 

[Terra]

Glad you did the typical ignore the post and go another direction. Maybe you need to re-read
THIS

I only asked, since you spoke of AGEIA and how they "havn't" delivered.
Why can you do the same "analysis" on GPU physcis?
What is the problem?
If AGIEA with + 60 developers uttring support, ~6 games on the market, hardware on the market has "failed", then by your definitions GPU-physics is an utter FIASCO...
Or have I gotten your "analysis" parameters wrong?

I like they way [H]ard does reviews...but not their stance on physics.
Time will tell who is right.
But at least they are better than Tom's in regards to physics.
Talk about a site that un-educates people.
And any reviwer reviewing a PPU and expecting "free" FPS and treating PPU's like GPU's, is as far out as a reviewer expecting AA and AF giving better FPS when applied and need to do some reading up.

If the PPU has done anything it has shown (like CPU-scaling test) that the bottleneck in our PC's today are the GPU.
ATI and NVIDIA need to release hardware that can match the rest of the hardware in our PC's and stop bottlenecking our PC's, simple as that.

Terra - Now you relate to that

 

[HOCP4ME]

You know, if we go by the logic of those opposing the PPU:

1. PCI-E should never have been adopted; AGP is more than enough for today's GPUs.
2. SATA shouldn't have been adopted, because EIDE was more than enough for today's HDDs.
3. SATA 2 shouldn't have been adopted, because SATA 1 was already more than enough.
4. BTX should be destroyed, because our PCs run fine with ATX.
5. AM2 was a stupid idea, since it didn't improve AMD's performance that much right away.
6. Now that we have multi-core CPU's, we don't need GPU's anymore; we can just use the extra cores.
7. Every last ounce of usefulness must be squeezed out of current-gen hardware before an upgrade is reasonable.
8. We shouldn't upgrade our graphics cards until our old ones can't run newer games even at 640x480 with no AA or eye candy.
9. GPU's were a stupid idea because, when they came out, the CPU could handle graphics just fine.
10. We should be boycotting all next-gen hardware because the software developers need to figure out a way to better utillize current hardware first.
11. The PPU is a terrible idea because it has only tech demos, limited game support, and a working product going for it right now, but Havok FX is a great idea because is has no tech demos, zero game support, and no working product going for it right now.
12. If a new piece of hardware won't perdict global-warming, it isn't enough of an advance to be justified.
13. Anything that isn't useful right after launch will never become useful.
14. Buying a second/third GPU is okay, but buying a PPU isn't.
15. As of now, anything that uses the old, outdated PCI bus is a piece of junk.
16. Because dedicated hardware has finally been created for physics, developers are going to improve CPU physics to ensure it never gets off the ground.
17. Developers are somehow going to improve CPU physics now that a PPU available, despite the fact that they were unable to do that before the PPU was launched.
18. We don't need anything better than what we have right now; games are fine today, let's stop the technology advances.
19. We don't need a GPU. CPU's can, if devs allow it, run games at 320x240 with no lighting or shadows, and we don't "need" anything more than that.

And finally...

20. Any new advance in hardware technology that actually requires us to, gasp, buy new hardware is bogus.

 

[Chernobyl1]

I only asked, since you spoke of AGEIA and how they "havn't" delivered.
Why can you do the same "analysis" on GPU physcis?
What is the problem?
If AGIEA with + 60 developers uttring support, ~6 games on the market, hardware on the market has "failed", then by your definitions GPU-physics is an utter FIASCO...
Or have I gotten your "analysis" parameters wrong?

I like they way [H]ard does reviews...but not their stance on physics.
Time will tell who is right.
But at least they are better than Tom's in regards to physics.
Talk about a site that un-educates people.
And any reviwer reviewing a PPU and expecting "free" FPS and treating PPU's like GPU's, is as far out as a reviewer expecting AA and AF giving better FPS when applied and need to do some reading up.

If the PPU has done anything it has shown (like CPU-scaling test) that the bottleneck in our PC's today are the GPU.
ATI and NVIDIA need to release hardware that can match the rest of the hardware in our PC's and stop bottlenecking our PC's, simple as that.

Terra - Now you relate to that

Its the software that bottlenecks the graphics cards, after all, you want it to really
Your graphics card is always going to be pushed to the max no matter how fast it is.
Perhaps you meant that the PhysX API/Hardware isnt developed enough to interface properly with the PC environment?
Faster graphics cards are coming and if you have the cash, its available now in Crossfire or SLI. Is SLI or Crossfire not fast enough?
Other ways of processing Physics are coming too so I'm wondering if PhysX will survive?


A difficulty with the PPU is thats its being placed in a system where it needs extra CPU and GPU power to operate. This is unfortunate as something will have to give or be upgraded as has been shown.
If it could really take workload off the CPU or GPU that would be great but the addition of PhysX today does indeed place extra load on everything.
Physics processing isnt "here to stay", it has always been here and integrated into gaming. This hasnt stopped because PhysX has appeared, so games without a PPU can and will have very good physics.

Now AMD have bought ATI and are researching Physics processing, we may see hybrid CPU's and GPU's with a PPU onboard. I'd certainly expect something.
With MS's Physics implementation coming up, we may be able to use all of these and a PhysX card at the same time for max effect.
Who knows what NVidia and Intel can bring to the table as well!

 

[Chernobyl1]

You know, if we go by the logic of those opposing the PPU:

1. PCI-E should never have been adopted; AGP is more than enough for today's GPUs.
2. SATA shouldn't have been adopted, because EIDE was more than enough for today's HDDs.
3. SATA 2 shouldn't have been adopted, because SATA 1 was already more than enough.
4. BTX should be destroyed, because our PCs run fine with ATX.
5. AM2 was a stupid idea, since it didn't improve AMD's performance that much right away.
6. Now that we have multi-core CPU's, we don't need GPU's anymore; we can just use the extra cores.
7. Every last ounce of usefulness must be squeezed out of current-gen hardware before an upgrade is reasonable.
8. We shouldn't upgrade our graphics cards until our old ones can't run newer games even at 640x480 with no AA or eye candy.
9. GPU's were a stupid idea because, when they came out, the CPU could handle graphics just fine.
10. We should be boycotting all next-gen hardware because the software developers need to figure out a way to better utillize current hardware first.
11. The PPU is a terrible idea because it has only tech demos, limited game support, and a working product going for it right now, but Havok FX is a great idea because is has no tech demos, zero game support, and no working product going for it right now.
12. If a new piece of hardware won't perdict global-warming, it isn't enough of an advance to be justified.
13. Anything that isn't useful right after launch will never become useful.
14. Buying a second/third GPU is okay, but buying a PPU isn't.
15. As of now, anything that uses the old, outdated PCI bus is a piece of junk.
16. Because dedicated hardware has finally been created for physics, developers are going to improve CPU physics to ensure it never gets off the ground.
17. Developers are somehow going to improve CPU physics now that a PPU available, despite the fact that they were unable to do that before the PPU was launched.
18. We don't need anything better than what we have right now; games are fine today, let's stop the technology advances.
19. We don't need a GPU. CPU's can, if devs allow it, run games at 320x240 with no lighting or shadows, and we don't "need" anything more than that.

And finally...

20. Any new advance in hardware technology that actually requires us to, gasp, buy new hardware is bogus.

Ah I think I see the issue.
We dont oppose the GPU, we think its really bad value for money at the moment.

 

[Terra]

You know, if we go by the logic of those opposing the PPU:

1. PCI-E should never have been adopted; AGP is more than enough for today's GPUs.
2. SATA shouldn't have been adopted, because EIDE was more than enough for today's HDDs.
3. SATA 2 shouldn't have been adopted, because SATA 1 was already more than enough.
4. BTX should be destroyed, because our PCs run fine with ATX.
5. AM2 was a stupid idea, since it didn't improve AMD's performance that much right away.
6. Now that we have multi-core CPU's, we don't need GPU's anymore; we can just use the extra cores.
7. Every last ounce of usefulness must be squeezed out of current-gen hardware before an upgrade is reasonable.
8. We shouldn't upgrade our graphics cards until our old ones can't run newer games even at 640x480 with no AA or eye candy.
9. GPU's were a stupid idea because, when they came out, the CPU could handle graphics just fine.
10. We should be boycotting all next-gen hardware because the software developers need to figure out a way to better utillize current hardware first.
11. The PPU is a terrible idea because it has only tech demos, limited game support, and a working product going for it right now, but Havok FX is a great idea because is has no tech demos, zero game support, and no working product going for it right now.
12. If a new piece of hardware won't perdict global-warming, it isn't enough of an advance to be justified.
13. Anything that isn't useful right after launch will never become useful.
14. Buying a second/third GPU is okay, but buying a PPU isn't.
15. As of now, anything that uses the old, outdated PCI bus is a piece of junk.
16. Because dedicated hardware has finally been created for physics, developers are going to improve CPU physics to ensure it never gets off the ground.
17. Developers are somehow going to improve CPU physics now that a PPU available, despite the fact that they were unable to do that before the PPU was launched.
18. We don't need anything better than what we have right now; games are fine today, let's stop the technology advances.
19. We don't need a GPU. CPU's can, if devs allow it, run games at 320x240 with no lighting or shadows, and we don't "need" anything more than that.

And finally...

20. Any new advance in hardware technology that actually requires us to, gasp, buy new hardware is bogus.

*LOL*
Nice summary...I guess a Top 10 List would be to little

/offtopic
BTW, just in case:
This message is hidden because Chernobyl1 is on your ignore list...
In case it hadn't gotten in...

Terra - Still smling over that post *L*

 

[R1ckCa1n]

If the PPU has done anything it has shown (like CPU-scaling test) that the bottleneck in our PC's today are the GPU.
ATI and NVIDIA need to release hardware that can match the rest of the hardware in our PC's and stop bottlenecking our PC's, simple as that.

w0w

Yes, my two X1900's are very GPU limited..........

 

[HOCP4ME]

Now AMD have bought ATI and are researching Physics processing, we may see hybrid CPU's and GPU's with a PPU onboard. I'd certainly expect something.

Lol, we've been dreaming of a one-chip-wonder for years. It's not going to happen for a very long time (IMO, not until we get quantum processors).

With MS's Physics implementation coming up, we may be able to use all of these and a PhysX card at the same time for max effect.

Now that's what I would like to see. Buy a PPU for maximum performance, or if you can't afford it, use your GPU for physics and sacrifice a little graphics performance. That works for everyone.

 

[quadnad]

You know, if we go by the logic of those opposing the PPU:

1. PCI-E should never have been adopted; AGP is more than enough for today's GPUs.
2. SATA shouldn't have been adopted, because EIDE was more than enough for today's HDDs.
3. SATA 2 shouldn't have been adopted, because SATA 1 was already more than enough.
4. BTX should be destroyed, because our PCs run fine with ATX.
5. AM2 was a stupid idea, since it didn't improve AMD's performance that much right away.
6. Now that we have multi-core CPU's, we don't need GPU's anymore; we can just use the extra cores.
7. Every last ounce of usefulness must be squeezed out of current-gen hardware before an upgrade is reasonable.
8. We shouldn't upgrade our graphics cards until our old ones can't run newer games even at 640x480 with no AA or eye candy.
9. GPU's were a stupid idea because, when they came out, the CPU could handle graphics just fine.
10. We should be boycotting all next-gen hardware because the software developers need to figure out a way to better utillize current hardware first.
11. The PPU is a terrible idea because it has only tech demos, limited game support, and a working product going for it right now, but Havok FX is a great idea because is has no tech demos, zero game support, and no working product going for it right now.
12. If a new piece of hardware won't perdict global-warming, it isn't enough of an advance to be justified.
13. Anything that isn't useful right after launch will never become useful.
14. Buying a second/third GPU is okay, but buying a PPU isn't.
15. As of now, anything that uses the old, outdated PCI bus is a piece of junk.
16. Because dedicated hardware has finally been created for physics, developers are going to improve CPU physics to ensure it never gets off the ground.
17. Developers are somehow going to improve CPU physics now that a PPU available, despite the fact that they were unable to do that before the PPU was launched.
18. We don't need anything better than what we have right now; games are fine today, let's stop the technology advances.
19. We don't need a GPU. CPU's can, if devs allow it, run games at 320x240 with no lighting or shadows, and we don't "need" anything more than that.

And finally...

20. Any new advance in hardware technology that actually requires us to, gasp, buy new hardware is bogus.

You're so correct. All of us that are opposed to paying $250+ for a PPU are actually opposed to technological advancement as a whole.

I have to say, most of the posts in the PPU section devolve so quickly....this will be my last post in this thread.

 

[HOCP4ME]

Ah I think I see the issue.
We dont oppose the GPU, we think its really bad value for money at the moment.

You're so correct. All of us that are opposed to paying $250+ for a PPU are actually opposed to technological advancement.

I agree with both of you. Unless you like the few games that it currently supports, there's not much reason to get a PPU right now. The people whom I don't agree with are those who are saying "we don't need this new hardware, let's use what we've already got instead". Applying that logic, we didn't need any advance in hardware since the ALU.

 

[DanMattia]

I'll buy a PPU when I need a PPU. Right now, it's just an enhancement, not a requirement.

 

[Terra]

w0w

Yes, my two X1900's are very GPU limited..........

They are in fact...in most games that is...dunno about Oblivion..I game RPG with dices, pen and paper...never on the PC
Havn't you been reading the CPU-scling, the CPU-vs games ect. articles that sites like Xbitlabs have dne in the past?

Terra - The GPU is the limeting factor in games...

 

[Chernobyl1]

repeat post

 

[Chernobyl1]

They are in fact...in most games that is...dunno about Oblivion..I game RPG with dices, pen and paper...never on the PC
Havn't you been reading the CPU-scling, the CPU-vs games ect. articles that sites like Xbitlabs have dne in the past?

Terra - The GPU is the limeting factor in games...

by that reckoning, they can never make graphics cards fast enough to run a PhysX card.

 

[xdkimx]

what good is it arguing about what you THINK is going to happen.. this arguement is baseless and pointless.. reminds me of religion..

if a ppu is needed in the future then we go get one, i dont see what you guys are trying to prove

 

[Chernobyl1]

repeat post

 

[Chernobyl1]

what good is it arguing about what you THINK is going to happen.. this arguement is baseless and pointless.. reminds me of religion..

if a ppu is needed in the future then we go get one, i dont see what you guys are trying to prove

lol agreed
its hard to leave misleading posts unanswered.

 

[HOCP4ME]

what good is it arguing about what you THINK is going to happen.. this arguement is baseless and pointless.. reminds me of religion..

if a ppu is needed in the future then we go get one, i dont see what you guys are trying to prove

Yes, I agree. But there are many people here saying that it WON'T be needed in the future, it SHOULDN'T be needed in the future, and it will ALWAYS be useless. That's not true.