Will DX9 Hardware run DX10?

M

Maximos

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Remember how back in the day ATi and nVidia would market their cards as 9.0++? Well, what's the deal with that? I'm building a Conroe rig around August and DX10 has been putting pressure on my descision. I don't feel like dropping $400 now just to drop another $400 6-8 months from now.
 
Everytime a new DirectX comes out, we have people asking this question.

A DX9 card, even a DX8 card, will run DX10. However, you will see a huge performance hit as the card isn't optimized for the specific DirectX and more software emulation is being done then hardware. I'm sure one of the more informed people will be able to give you a better, more technical answer, but heres the bottom line.

You WILL be able to play DX10 games. However, you won't get as good quality as if you bought the equivalent DX10 version (ala, you have a 7900GTX now, and the new top of the line DX10 nVidia card is the 8900GTX, you obviously won't get the same performance in a DX10 with the 7900GTX as you would with the 8900GTX)

Hope this answers your question.
 
Murali said:
Everytime a new DirectX comes out, we have people asking this question.

A DX9 card, even a DX8 card, will run DX10. However, you will see a huge performance hit as the card isn't optimized for the specific DirectX and more software emulation is being done then hardware. I'm sure one of the more informed people will be able to give you a better, more technical answer, but heres the bottom line.

You WILL be able to play DX10 games. However, you won't get as good quality as if you bought the equivalent DX10 version (ala, you have a 7900GTX now, and the new top of the line DX10 nVidia card is the 8900GTX, you obviously won't get the same performance in a DX10 with the 7900GTX as you would with the 8900GTX)

Hope this answers your question.
Click to expand...


Murali,

I understand where you are coming from as previous versions of Direct X would let an earlier supported card run that version but turn off features that are not available to that hardware. Here's where I think it's important to understand, DirectX 10 will not allow hardware that doens't meet the minimum hardware features to run at all, instead it'll back down to DirectX 9.0L that runs as a shim inside the DirectX 10 engine.

If a game is written for DirectX 10 "only" and doesn't support the 9.0L feature set, then that game "will not" run on that older DirectX 9, 8.1 or 8 card.

It's a radical departure from before, but so's the Vista OS that DirectX 10 is only available on. Most games will for some time support 9.0L as a fall back, similar to how many 9.0c games that use SM 3.0 will fall back to 2.0 for those cards that don't have the SM 3.0 hardware. Once DirectX 10 "only" games start shipping and you want them, you'll have no choice but to purchase a new card.
 
DX10 is DX10, not DX9+

It's kinda like asking if your monitor can do HD when it's not designed to do HD.

DX9 cards will forever run only DX9 software. If your only want for a graphics card is to run DX10 software then you will have to wait till there are cards out.

Patience is a virtue.
 
"all you need is patience... yeeaaah."


ah.... Live, Like a Suicide .


I'm sorry. I had to. Prolly no one here knows what I'm talking about.
 
Currently, they're using DX9 cards for testing but the final builds will not have the support for such.
 
TheOmniscientCreator said:
Remember how back in the day ATi and nVidia would market their cards as 9.0++? Well, what's the deal with that? I'm building a Conroe rig around August and DX10 has been putting pressure on my descision. I don't feel like dropping $400 now just to drop another $400 6-8 months from now.
Click to expand...

It is up to game makers to determine which rendering paths their games will feature. With rare exception, most games feature at least two rendering paths. Some, like Half-Life 2 (DX7, DX8, DX8.1, DX9) and Doom 3 (T&L, Shader 1.1, Shader 1.4, Shader 2), feature three or more rendering paths, all due to the popularity of older cards.

Due to the popularity of DX8 video cards such as the GeForce 4 and Radeon 8500, LOTS of "DX9" games have featured DX8 or DX8.1 rendering paths. Even hard-core DX9 games like Battlefield 2 support a DX8.1 rendering path. And with most major engines starting to build-in legacy support, expect this trend to continue.

So, don't worry about DX10. DirectX 9, just like DirectX 8, has been very popular, so you can expect to see games with legacy DX9 rendering paths for some time. In terms of effects, there are only a few things a DX10 card can do that a DX9 card can't, so don't expect to miss out on much. Finally, DX10 is going to be a bit of a bitch to get ahold of, because you can't USE a DX10 card without Vista. Really, HOW MANY of you are planning on shelling out for Vista next year just to make your system "fully" DX10?
 
^^ its not even that
Game makers aren't stupid. they know that not everyone can afford to upgrade their machine as soon as new DirectX tech comes out.
They'll be making their DirectX 10 games support the older DX9 for a good while yet.
there will be no rush to get a DX10 card
i just got a Radeon X1900XTX...not changing that for a good while i tell you
 
CleanSlate said:
DX10 is DX10, not DX9+

It's kinda like asking if your monitor can do HD when it's not designed to do HD.

DX9 cards will forever run only DX9 software. If your only want for a graphics card is to run DX10 software then you will have to wait till there are cards out.

Patience is a virtue.
Click to expand...
This is not 100% true. DX 9 cards will run DX 10 software.
 
Hi ,
the card i have bought right now claims that it is Vista ready and it is capable of taking all it has to offer to the max. It is a 7950.

Man i feel bad if it wont.
 
nooh said:
Hi ,
the card i have bought right now claims that it is Vista ready and it is capable of taking all it has to offer to the max. It is a 7950.

Man i feel bad if it wont.
Click to expand...

It may be Vista ready, but it is not a DX10 card.. It will run games on the dx9 path.. When fully dx10 games hit the shelves you can expect to play them, you just may be missing an eyecandy feature or two that is not supprted by your current dx9 gpu's.. Then again, you may get the eyecandy through software emulation, but that depends on the game coders, and what MS does with DX10..
 
I hope they a a dx9 .5 so this way i dont lose that much. Your right about the eye candy it does get better.

Also usually when this type of thing happens the old stuffs effeciency does get better. Then we have the drivers which are gewtting more efficient , so hpefully it wont be all that bad.

The 7950 boasts of a lot of bandwith so will it really effect this card that bad as much as it would effect a agp card ?

Every card will be affected in a different way , isnt it?
 
Loadedaxe said:
This is not 100% true. DX 9 cards will run DX 10 software.
Click to expand...

Not using the DX10 routines.

Maybe it would be better if I said "if you want to run DX10 software using DX10 IQ routines instead of DX9" it would sound better.
 
The average computer now is probably like a 2ghz P4 with a DX8.1 card although people that play games have faster than average computers. Game manufactures need to make games run on as many computers as possible to sell more copys. So I don't expect to see many DX10 or Vista only games soon. Halo 3 may be the only one for some time, and I'd bet DX9 cards will run it.

I'm looking to build a new rig some time after ahh, JULY 23! I need a videocard too. The question is should I spend $200 then upgrade in six months, or about $400 and hang on to it a year or two?
 
it's stupid to buy conroe and dx10 as soon as they come out. they will be overpriced and not mature. there also won't be too many options or as many motherboards out as there are today. in reality, next january or later would be a realistic time to buy if you want to get everything out of your dollar.
 
Except for those of us "stupid" people that have to build a rig right now. There's a lot of games coming up this fall and my old rig couldn't hang. So, being my stupid self, I'm building a Conroe rig now.
 
to mickel .

scan have this cool offer where you can buy a system with the 7950 in andwhat you pay for the card is only £270 or something , how cool is that.

I paid £500 for mine. Buy the whole rig from SCAN with the 7950 and what you want , they are very competitive but they are in the UK and i do not know where you are from.
 
To run in DX 10 mode you absolutely have to have a DX 10 capable GPU. (R600/G80 or better)

That being said all games made in the next few years will be also DX 9 compatible, but it will look much better on any non-budget DX 10 card.
 
yes. DX 9 cards will be probably be able to play DX 10 games

in an interview with a Direct X PR he stated "Direct X 10 will be the first non-backwards compatable Direct X version ever" by this he coulda meant two things. Direct X 9 cards wont run Direct X 10 games. he could also mean that Direct X 10 cards wont run DX9 games. this dude then brings up Direct X 9.0E, and unreleased direct X. i think its supposed to be a middle man, allowing Direct X 10 cards to play DX9 games.

so yea. it may or may not be able to play the games. no opperations are actually being added. there just needs to be a converter to decide "this ones a shader, this ones a texture, this ones a polygon" to play DX 10 games on a DX 9 card. **THIS IS WHY DX 10 WAS MADE!** this is apparently quite a big overhead. removing it increases performance substancially according to DX PR.

even after the full off-the-shelves release of Vista, even after it becomes bigger then Windows XP, I wont be expecting to see DX 10 games written for a little while.

ill try to find that interview but its not at any of my favorite websites and i cant remember where i got it....
 
couldnt find my interview.

I sent an e-mail to Microsoft, Nvidia, and ATI and i hope to get an answer back soon enough. when i do ill post my findings.
 
Loadedaxe said:
This is not 100% true. DX 9 cards will run DX 10 software.
Click to expand...

Loadedaxe,

From all the sources I've read, the opposite is true. Some DX 10 software will support DX 9.0L and thus DX 9 cards. But DX 9 cards "will not" run DirectX 10. DirectX 9.0L will be an emulation that runs on top of DirectX 10 (thus benefiting from it's improvements in it's overall execution) but will not allow DX 9 access to the full DirectX 10. If a product doesn't call for DirectX 9 (and thus 9.0L) then it won't run "period".

9.0L only provides backwards compatiblity to existing DirectX 9 software for the Vista environment. Some may even need to be patched to execute correctly due to some changes (hence the L instead of DirectX 9.0c).

Vista won't run all of your existing games 100% out of the box, some will work some will need to be patched. Similar to what happened when users upgraded to XP and found that some of their 95/98 games stopped working.
 
MrWizard6600 said:
so yea. it may or may not be able to play the games. no opperations are actually being added. there just needs to be a converter to decide "this ones a shader, this ones a texture, this ones a polygon" to play DX 10 games on a DX 9 card. **THIS IS WHY DX 10 WAS MADE!** this is apparently quite a big overhead. removing it increases performance substancially according to DX PR.

even after the full off-the-shelves release of Vista, even after it becomes bigger then Windows XP, I wont be expecting to see DX 10 games written for a little while.
Click to expand...

It's believed that the dx-10 cards will still be able to do dx-9, the same way dx-9 cards are able to do fixed function still (dx-7), and ati and nvidia would be crazy if they didnt design the cards to do dx9 also. As for the whole dx9 cards playing dx10, that probably wont happen, the hardware just isnt there to do dx10 operations (geometry shader for example), though i suspect there will be dx9 compatibility built in to most games for a loooooonnnnggg time. Finally, dx10 games are already being written, (not full dx10 the way oblivion is full dx9, but takes advantage of dx10) crysis for example. The vista delays have set it up so that some games that actually support dx10 will be released around the same time as vista.
 
M$ has revamped the DX9 engine as well when they made DX10. They streamlined alot of the API functionality and coding so those who go with Vista will notice a little bit of an improvement on current games (theoretically anyways). Vista Beta still has some bugs and I only seen marginal improvements before my games bombed out.. :p
 
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA0NSw0LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

So what does all this mean for us? The potential for it all sounds great on paper. Since DirectX 10 is tied to Windows Vista, this means if you want to experience DirectX 10-powered 3D games you are going to need Windows Vista, a DirectX 10 video card, and a DirectX 10 game at the least. Windows XP users need not apply for DirectX 10. That said, given the advances with DirectX 9 gaming in the last year, we fully expect to see more of its potential realized as well for those of us “left behind.”
Click to expand...
 
How about Halo 2 isn't that DX10 Vista only?

I feel quite confortable buying a 7900GT now, I don't plan to upgrade to Vista for at least a year. By then hopefully Microsoft will have ironed out the inevitable bugs and security issues. I refuse to be a Microsoft guinea pig/beta tester! Same applies to games that don't run on Vista, over time patches will be released for incompatibility issues.
 
They're only releasing Halo 2 for Vista so they'll probably lock it into DX10 only.
 
I beta tested Windows Vista Beta 2 a few weeks ago. I think it looks cool, has cool features, but uses a minimum of 500 MB of ram just to run Windows. If Microsoft doesn't fix that, there's no way I'm upgrading to Vista until I can fit 8 GB of ram into my computer. As it is, I have 1.5 GB and I'm scared that I'd run out when I add windows plus the next game to my system.

What I see in the future: if you want the highest end system for DX10, then wait until they make cards that will do DX10 and wait for this new Conroe processor at the same time. Then jump on it all at once instead of feeling weird like some people feel nowadays with their high end AGP cards.

Just my fiftieth of a dollar. :cool:
 
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