WiFi txpower standards by country....

duby229

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So after all these years of being a wifi user, I learned something new today. It seems that transmission strength of wifi adapters is governed differently depending on which country you are in. No shit, who would of thunk that?

In windows just changing the region to Bolivia improved txpower from 20dB to 33dB. In linux I had to compile a modified driver and replace the stock driver, then I could set the CRDA region to Bolivia, which in turn allowed me to increase txpower from 20 to 33dB. (although the linux driver seems flaky (gets stuck at low bitrates), rtl8192ce)

So, now I have a much better wifi connection. For the first time ever my wifi adapter is able to max out my internet bandwidth.

YAY!!
 

wizdum

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And this should only be done if you buy a wireless product and it's set for a different country than the one you are living in. Changing the country code on your wifi device to increase output power is illegal, and a major pain in the ass to people like myself that operate wireless internet service providers.

Also, boosting transmit power almost never has any effect on your actual experience, beyond showing more "bars". 99% of the time the problem is the receive sensitivity on the client. It is however a fantastic way to trash the wireless spectrum around your house for anyone else that wants to use it.
 

rat

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You're better off simply getting off 2.4Ghz and using 5Ghz band channels exclusively.
 

duby229

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And this should only be done if you buy a wireless product and it's set for a different country than the one you are living in. Changing the country code on your wifi device to increase output power is illegal, and a major pain in the ass to people like myself that operate wireless internet service providers.

Also, boosting transmit power almost never has any effect on your actual experience, beyond showing more "bars". 99% of the time the problem is the receive sensitivity on the client. It is however a fantastic way to trash the wireless spectrum around your house for anyone else that wants to use it.
Honestly, I couldn't care any less about its legality.

Also, downloads from the internet improved from about 250KB/s to over 1.5MB/s. It was well worth it. Also, I'm out in the middle of nowhere.... There isn't any other routers anywhere within range. (even if there were others around, I still wouldn't care.)

EDIT: The fact is that it's just plain wrong. It shouldn't matter one tiny little bit where you happen to live. If it's technologically possible then it should be legal.... An unenforceable law is exactly the same thing as no law at all.
 
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duby229

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You're better off simply getting off 2.4Ghz and using 5Ghz band channels exclusively.
I plan to do that soon. Right now I'm just waiting to see which 802.11ac adapter has the best out of box support on linux so that I can buy that adapter.
 

wizdum

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Honestly, I couldn't care any less about its legality.

Also, downloads from the internet improved from about 250KB/s to over 1.5MB/s. It was well worth it. Also, I'm out in the middle of nowhere.... There isn't any other routers anywhere within range. (even if there were others around, I still wouldn't care.)

EDIT: The fact is that it's just plain wrong. It shouldn't matter one tiny little bit where you happen to live. If it's technologically possible then it should be legal.... An unenforceable law is exactly the same thing as no law at all.
Oh, its not unenforceable, don't worry about that. No one is going to show up to your house immediately, but someone will eventually.

So you would have no problem with me turning up one of my WISP's radios to 36dBm, with a 34dBi antenna and blacking out all WiFi in a 2 mile radius? I mean, its technically possible, and requires no licenses or anything. Hell, I could put up 3 120 degree sectors and fuck up the entire 2.4ghz spectrum. The idea of unlicensed spectrum works because people agree not to be dicks, for the common good.

The "I live in the middle of no where, so the laws don't apply to me" schtick doesn't work. There are WiFi PTP links in excess of 100 miles. Are you sure there's no one within a 100 mile radius of you using WiFi?
 

duby229

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Oh, its not unenforceable, don't worry about that. No one is going to show up to your house immediately, but someone will eventually.

So you would have no problem with me turning up one of my WISP's radios to 36dBm, with a 34dBi antenna and blacking out all WiFi in a 2 mile radius? I mean, its technically possible, and requires no licenses or anything. Hell, I could put up 3 120 degree sectors and fuck up the entire 2.4ghz spectrum. The idea of unlicensed spectrum works because people agree not to be dicks, for the common good.

The "I live in the middle of no where, so the laws don't apply to me" schtick doesn't work. There are WiFi PTP links in excess of 100 miles. Are you sure there's no one within a 100 mile radius of you using WiFi?
Hell, if you really want to stick to that argument then all the shitty 2.4ghz appliances sold that operate on the same bands as wifi are illegal too. I have a wireless security camera that just spits out rf on the same band that wifi has channel 11 on... It makes everything from channel 9 on up useless.

And really? A hundred mile range? You'd need directional antennas on both ends pushing out hundreds of watts. In which case wifi is not the best option at all. Matter of fact completely retarded. I'd have no issues at all fucking up someones dumbass attempt to do that.

EDIT: If some government agency came to my home because I am operating my wifi adapter outside of specs..... Oh boy! .... I can't wait for that day to come. :D
 

wizdum

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Hell, if you really want to stick to that argument then all the shitty 2.4ghz appliances sold that operate on the same bands as wifi are illegal too. I have a wireless security camera that just spits out rf on the same band that wifi has channel 11 on... It makes everything from channel 9 on up useless.

And really? A hundred mile range? You'd need directional antennas on both ends pushing out hundreds of watts. In which case wifi is not the best option at all. Matter of fact completely retarded. I'd have no issues at all fucking up someones dumbass attempt to do that.
Over a hundred miles. With 1W radios and directional antennas. This is the problem we have with people that are not in the biz. MOAR POWAR is almost never the solution. WiFi is the perfect solution for a long range link, people make a business of it. Just because you are ignorant of it doesn't make it "retarded". Some may argue the reverse.

Also, any device that transmits on channel 11 causes interference on channels 9 and up. Thats part of the spec, and expected. Those are also short range devices that are obeying EIRP limits, so their interference is minimized.

They may not knock on your door, they'll just fine you for every hour the radio has been operational.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304434104579378994224188328
 

/usr/home

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Hell, if you really want to stick to that argument then all the shitty 2.4ghz appliances sold that operate on the same bands as wifi are illegal too. I have a wireless security camera that just spits out rf on the same band that wifi has channel 11 on... It makes everything from channel 9 on up useless.

And really? A hundred mile range? You'd need directional antennas on both ends pushing out hundreds of watts. In which case wifi is not the best option at all. Matter of fact completely retarded. I'd have no issues at all fucking up someones dumbass attempt to do that.

EDIT: If some government agency came to my home because I am operating my wifi adapter outside of specs..... Oh boy! .... I can't wait for that day to come. :D
Glad I don't live or operate gear near people like you.

The ignorance and arrogancy is strong with this one.
 

duby229

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Over a hundred miles. With 1W radios and directional antennas. This is the problem we have with people that are not in the biz. MOAR POWAR is almost never the solution. WiFi is the perfect solution for a long range link, people make a business of it. Just because you are ignorant of it doesn't make it "retarded". Some may argue the reverse.

Also, any device that transmits on channel 11 causes interference on channels 9 and up. Thats part of the spec, and expected. Those are also short range devices that are obeying EIRP limits, so their interference is minimized.

They may not knock on your door, they'll just fine you for every hour the radio has been operational.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304434104579378994224188328
All I can say to the FCC is good luck with that... I know for an absolute fact it would never ever get paid. Like I said, an unenforceable law is exactly the same thing as no law.
 

duby229

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Glad I don't live or operate gear near people like you.

The ignorance and arrogancy is strong with this one.
I'll say the same to you. Tell me, exactly what makes one country better than the next? What makes one countries policies better than anothers?

You can call me ignorant, but it was you that made no attempt at all for an explanation. That's what's ignorant.
 

duby229

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Heck, just examine a sampling of actions by the FCC's spectrum enforcement division.

http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/rfo/ActAct.html

FCC doesn't play around, some of those fines are serious business.
I took a few minutes to look through some info on your link. It seems to me that these are all large scale operators. Many of them got fined because they weren't maintaining their broadcast towers properly. It doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with residential wifi.
 

wizdum

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I'll say the same to you. Tell me, exactly what makes one country better than the next? What makes one countries policies better than anothers?

You can call me ignorant, but it was you that made no attempt at all for an explanation. That's what's ignorant.
I don't know why i'm even still replying at this point, but here goes...

Nothing makes one country's policies better than the other. Thats not how it works. Different countries have different frequency allocations in different ranges. In the US, the 2.4ghz "unlicensed" band is bordered by frequencies allocated to emergency services on one side, and cellular providers, plus GPS and other satellite communications on the other. We have lower power limits because fucking up emergency service communications and GPS is bad, get it?

The frequencies that aircraft use to make safe landings in bad weather sit right in the middle of range used for 5ghz WiFi, so special power rules are applied for those frequencies.

These rules exist for reason.
 

duby229

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I don't know why i'm even still replying at this point, but here goes...

Nothing makes one country's policies better than the other. Thats not how it works. Different countries have different frequency allocations in different ranges. In the US, the 2.4ghz "unlicensed" band is bordered by frequencies allocated to emergency services on one side, and cellular providers, plus GPS and other satellite communications on the other. We have lower power limits because fucking up emergency service communications and GPS is bad, get it?

The frequencies that aircraft use to make safe landings in bad weather sit right in the middle of range used for 5ghz WiFi, so special power rules are applied for those frequencies.

These rules exist for reason.
Residential wifi does not have that long of a range. Plus, the FCC seriously needs to get on the ball and allocate bands that better serve the needs that they have. Shit, they still are trying to enforce bands that were allocated in the 30's...

It damn sure isn't my fault the dumbass shit the FCC does... I don't need to worry about it, and I'm not going to.
 

wizdum

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Residential wifi does not have that long of a range. Plus, the FCC seriously needs to get on the ball and allocate bands that better serve the needs that they have. Shit, they still are trying to enforce bands that were allocated in the 30's...

It damn sure isn't my fault the dumbass shit the FCC does... I don't need to worry about it, and I'm not going to.
Ladies and gentlemen, behold the "Fuck you, got mine" generation.
 

duby229

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Ladies and gentlemen, behold the "Fuck you, got mine" generation.
Instead of concentrating effort on forcing others to do as you do... Just do as you do. Period.

It's not a fuck you moment. It's an I don't care moment.
 

rat

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Oh, its not unenforceable, don't worry about that. No one is going to show up to your house immediately, but someone will eventually.
I had my router on Channel 13 for over two years. I live in the city. Nobody contacted me. There were over 60 identifiable SSIDs on channels 1-11 within a 1 block stretch in front of my apartment, so rather necessary.
 

Liger88

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I had my router on Channel 13 for over two years. I live in the city. Nobody contacted me. There were over 60 identifiable SSIDs on channels 1-11 within a 1 block stretch in front of my apartment, so rather necessary.

Well it's not like they have a guy that goes out and patrols cities searching for people doing illegal things on public/private radio waves or anything lol. There's a reason things are why they are for each country, but you can choose to not abide by those rules like every law on earth.

Remember, it took the law enforcement 2 years to catch the guy jamming mobile phone signals when he would drive home on a major highway. It's more of a matter of time. Honestly, I think that guy should have be nailed to the wall. Though I don't see Wi-Fi being nearly as significant as interfering with GPS and phone systems. So long as you aren't being stupid with it you'll probably be fine.
 

Grentz

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OP, you really dont understand how RF works.

Realize your signal could be interferring for a march larger distance than just where you have usable wifi. It is also not necessarily about every unique exception, it is about the situations where it can cause issues and people with no idea how these things work mess with others.
 

duby229

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OP, you really dont understand how RF works.

Realize your signal could be interferring for a march larger distance than just where you have usable wifi. It is also not necessarily about every unique exception, it is about the situations where it can cause issues and people with no idea how these things work mess with others.
Well, that's obviously not true. If I need to overpower someone elses interference so that I can get a good connection for myself, then that is exactly what I'm going to do.
 

Grentz

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Well, that's obviously not true. If I need to overpower someone elses interference so that I can get a good connection for myself, then that is exactly what I'm going to do.
you are just further proving my point...it's not that simple in denser RF environments.
 

duby229

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you are just further proving my point...it's not that simple in denser RF environments.
I'm not in a denser rf environment. What point is it you're trying to prove? I'll do what I do, you'll do what you do... How bout that?
 

-Strelok-

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I'm not in a denser rf environment. What point is it you're trying to prove? I'll do what I do, you'll do what you do... How bout that?
Don't bitch and complain if you do ever get in trouble then.
 

duby229

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Don't bitch and complain if you do ever get in trouble then.
Good luck with that.

It amazes me that so many people here think that this is somehow wrong. And with no other explanation than it's "illegal".

I don't care.

Here is the fact, after doing this my connection improved by something like 10 times. That's what happened. And there isn't anything wrong with it. Just because some dumbass lobbyist made some money on a senator doesn't mean I should give a shit.

EDIT: Come on folks, We're talking about milliwatts here, a couple hundred feet at most. ( I doubt my signal even reaches the road) It's not like I erected a 2000 foot tall broadcast tower and pumping out tons of power....
 
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green91

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I had my router on Channel 13 for over two years. I live in the city. Nobody contacted me. There were over 60 identifiable SSIDs on channels 1-11 within a 1 block stretch in front of my apartment, so rather necessary.
Channel 13 overlaps Channel 11 in frequency.
 

wizdum

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Good luck with that.

It amazes me that so many people here think that this is somehow wrong. And with no other explanation than it's "illegal".

I don't care.

Here is the fact, after doing this my connection improved by something like 10 times. That's what happened. And there isn't anything wrong with it. Just because some dumbass lobbyist made some money on a senator doesn't mean I should give a shit.

EDIT: Come on folks, We're talking about milliwatts here, a couple hundred feet at most. ( I doubt my signal even reaches the road) It's not like I erected a 2000 foot tall broadcast tower and pumping out tons of power....
I gave you a reason why, other than "it's illegal". We also told you that the signal goes a lot farther than a couple hundred feet. You just ignored it and continued on with your self-centered and ignorant rant.

But please, explain how this is all the fault of some lobbyists. I need another laugh tonight.
 

green91

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I for one am grateful for the tx power limit imposed on the 2.4ghz spectrum. Without it, the spectrum would be more useless than it currently is!
 

/usr/home

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It's not just a few mW, you bumped it up to 2W output from the original 100mW at 20dB. Double the allowed output. Who knows how strong of an antennae you got so it could be even more of a jump in power.
 
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rat

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Channel 13 overlaps Channel 11 in frequency.
Only partially compared to how much overlap there is with other channels in the 1-11 range. It was enough for me to go from not being able to stay connected to my own router to be able to get 1Mbps to my laptop.
 

wizdum

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Only partially compared to how much overlap there is with other channels in the 1-11 range. It was enough for me to go from not being able to stay connected to my own router to be able to get 1Mbps to my laptop.
Channels 12 and 13 are actually allowed under some low power indoor applications. Most of the time some overlap is actually worse than 100% overlap, as the radio can filter out noise better if its sharing a channel with the device causing the noise. Channel 14 is never allowed as its owned by GlobalStar and used for satellite service.
 

duby229

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It's not just a few mW, you bumped it up to 2W output from the original 100W at 20dB. Double the allowed output. Who knows how strong of an antennae you got so it could be even more of a jump in power.
2 watts would burn the shit out of you. There's no way it's pushing out that much, let alone 100 watts.
 

duby229

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I gave you a reason why, other than "it's illegal". We also told you that the signal goes a lot farther than a couple hundred feet. You just ignored it and continued on with your self-centered and ignorant rant.

But please, explain how this is all the fault of some lobbyists. I need another laugh tonight.
No you didn't You said some nonsense and then said trust me... I have no reason to trust your nonsense.

What's truly ignorant is you're attempt to convince people that you're way should be the only way
 

/usr/home

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2 watts would burn the shit out of you. There's no way it's pushing out that much, let alone 100 watts.
I was replying on my phone and meant 100mW not 100W.

It IS 2W. Lookup the math. Adding 3dB doubles the output power in mW.
 

wizdum

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No you didn't You said some nonsense and then said trust me... I have no reason to trust your nonsense.

What's truly ignorant is you're attempt to convince people that you're way should be the only way
What part of what I said was nonsense?
 

BigBadAl

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Well, that's obviously not true. If I need to overpower someone elses interference so that I can get a good connection for myself, then that is exactly what I'm going to do.
And herein lies the problem, you do that, fine, no problem...

then, 3 miles down the road, Jim notices his Wi-Fi has turned to crap, Jim is also an idiot and does the same as you, but hes 3 miles or so away from his nearest neighbour so he`s fine also... but then we have Steve..

Steve lives 3 miles down the road from you in the other direction, he now notices the same as yourself and Jim, so Jim says WTF, if they`re doing it, I`m doing it.

So then we have you that have affected 2 other people, and if they each in turn affect (conservatively, depending on where they live) another 2 people....... you get the picture!?

Then we have all of your neighbours (at this point we`ve only considered 2 directions up and down your street, but RF goes in all directions doesn`t it!?)), all of Steves neighbours and all of Jims neighbours all with the same `fuck you, Ill do whatever I want` attitude, then the FCC decides to restrict the fuck out of the spectrum that we are allowed to use, unlicensed, on the understanding that we don`t fook it all up for everyone, all because `just one person` jacks up his ERP `so just he can get good wifi` and `he lives in the middle of nowhere` and ` can`t possibly be affecting anyone else`.

That sir, as unfortunate as it may be, is the attitude of an idiot.

Just admit that you may have a blinkered attitude towards something you clearly don`t fully understand and bow out.

Go ask a local HAM operator, there`s a reason they have to be licenced and have very strict rules and regs about what they can transmit, where and with how much power..

I`m not the guy in the position to give you a telling off, but come on......Seriously!?



I was replying on my phone and meant 100mW not 100W.

It IS 2W. Lookup the math. Adding 3dB doubles the output power in mW.
Indeed, every 3dB is an effective doubling in power.

Start with one watt, add 3dB, that`s 2 watts
2W +3dB=4W
4W +3db=8W
8W +3dB=16W

and so on and so forth

You shove 500mW into a one of those aftermarket 9dBi antennas on your router, your ERP becomes 4000mW, or 4 Watts.

4 Watts can and will go a long way... Remember CB radios? Standard, back in the 70/80`s single band, unmodified CB Radios put out ~4 watts and we all know how far they could get...
 
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duby229

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And herein lies the problem, you do that, fine, no problem...

then, 3 miles down the road, Jim notices his Wi-Fi has turned to crap, Jim is also an idiot and does the same as you, but hes 3 miles or so away from his nearest neighbour so he`s fine also... but then we have Steve..

Steve lives 3 miles down the road from you in the other direction, he now notices the same as yourself and Jim, so Jim says WTF, if they`re doing it, I`m doing it.

So then we have you that have affected 2 other people, and if they each in turn affect (conservatively, depending on where they live) another 2 people....... you get the picture!?

Then we have all of your neighbours (at this point we`ve only considered 2 directions up and down your street, but RF goes in all directions doesn`t it!?)), all of Steves neighbours and all of Jims neighbours all with the same `fuck you, Ill do whatever I want` attitude, then the FCC decides to restrict the fuck out of the spectrum that we are allowed to use, unlicensed, on the understanding that we don`t fook it all up for everyone, all because `just one person` jacks up his ERP `so just he can get good wifi` and `he lives in the middle of nowhere` and ` can`t possibly be affecting anyone else`.

That sir, as unfortunate as it may be, is the attitude of an idiot.

Just admit that you may have a blinkered attitude towards something you clearly don`t fully understand and bow out.

Go ask a local HAM operator, there`s a reason they have to be licenced and have very strict rules and regs about what they can transmit, where and with how much power..

I`m not the guy in the position to give you a telling off, but come on......Seriously!?
Suffice it to say I disagree with you. What you're doing is comparing completely different concepts and trying to extrapolate. That doesn't work because it isn't the same thing. Ham radios operate on a much lower frequency band which has totally different propagation properties.

Indeed, every 3dB is an effective doubling in power.

Start with one watt, add 3dB, that`s 2 watts
2W +3dB=4W
4W +3db=8W
8W +3dB=16W

and so on and so forth

You shove 500mW into a one of those aftermarket 9dBi antennas on your router, your ERP becomes 4000mW, or 4 Watts.

4 Watts can and will go a long way... Remember CB radios? Standard, back in the 70/80`s single band, unmodified CB Radios put out ~4 watts and we all know how far they could get...
My laptop has a mimo antenna. I wish I could screw on a good aftermarket dipole. That would be great.

Like I already said there is no way it's pushing out even 2 watts, let alone 4 or 8 or 16. You guys are grasping at tiny little shreddings of straw now. I know for an absolute fact that 2 watts without any kind of passive cooling would burn you badly. And the adapter is only getting slightly warm. I wish there was a utility that could measure power output in watts.

And again Ham and CB are much lower frequency bands. They don't work the same. 2.4ghz will never be capable of propagating as far as those lower frequencies.

(A simple analogy would be audio. The fact is low frequencies travel further through most mediums. Exactly the same thing is true with RF. Low RF frequencies like CB tend to follow the contours of the ground and are able to propagate through things that are narrower than the wavelength. Higher frequencies tend to travel only in straight lines, and because the wavelength is so short it gets blocked by almost everything that gets in the way. Low frequencies don't work the same way.)
 
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BigBadAl

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Lol....

lost cause.

Ignorance seemingly is bliss.... 13 centimeter ham band........2.4Ghz.....not to mention the 5 centimeter band at 5Ghz or the 3 centimeter band at 10Ghz

Quite a broad sweeping statement wouldn`t you agree?
 
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duby229

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Lol....

lost cause.

Ignorance seemingly is bliss.... 13 centimeter ham band........2.4Ghz.....not to mention the 5 centimeter band at 5Ghz or the 3 centimeter band at 10Ghz

Quite a broad sweeping statement wouldn`t you agree?
Nope, Ham operates on a number of bands with wavelengths ranging from 10 meters to 160 meters. 2.4ghz is a much shorter wavelength (roughly 12cm). They behave totally different.

EDIT: That's what's great about ham I think. If you could get a 160 meter antenna, you could operate on the 160 meter wavelength band. You can get some really awesome ranges out of your equipment. Of course most ham operators probably use the 10 meter wavelength band just because the antenna is probably cheaper.
 
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