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Why SFF?

T

The Oatman

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
415
What drives people who buy SFF components or fully built systems?

Do you consider the space savings worth it, considering the performance sacrifices that are often made?

Is it about portability? Perhaps the lower cost of some of the parts?

Or is it more about the challenge of building in a restricted space?

What inspires you to go SFF?

Edit: I am also interested in hearing more about how many people use their SFF system for a significant amount of 3D gaming or other GPU intensive work.
 
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I am currently in the process of building a SFF and I can say that for me the reason was portability meeting power. My laptop, which I love, is slowly dying because of use and maybe mistreatment. I already went through one of the same model and I can't feel comfortable with all the new keyboard etc... placements in the new laptops. Plus the price becomes just outrageous compared to the power you get. I am also feeling exasperated seeing new netbooks having better parts and larger HDDs than my full sized laptop.

I have a powerful gaming PC that I paid for, but I don't use it for personal work, mostly because it is not in my own room. I don't like using it in front of my family.

I am going to go to college soon and I will have to have a computer there as well, so I am thinking of having a portable, upgradable, relatively cheap SFF PC will benefit me more than paying obscene amounts for a laptop I am looking for. The lower cost is also a benefit.
 
Hm I went from a CM WaveMaster to an Antec P180 to an ABS Black Pearl to a Lian Li A05NB to a Lian Li PC-Q08B to a Lian Li PC-Q11B (that is on its way). For me, I played a lot of games on my PC in the past, but as the years went by, I have now stopped playing games so I don't need to have high end components or video cards of any sort. I also wanted a bigger computer case because I wanted a lot of hard drives, but now that hard drives have 2TB capacities and growing, there isn't really a need for that many hard drives unless it's a server. I'm going to have a SSD and two Samsung 2TBs in the PC-Q11. If I do need another hard drive, it's going to be a 2.5" hard drive that I can put my music and pictures on instead of putting them on one of the 2TB hard drives. Moreover, I've taken a liking to a computer case with a smaller footprint (it's great to have more desk space!), it's portability (though I don't really need to move it around that often), and overall ability to pack a decent amount of hardware in a smaller case.
 
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Cost is not always lower, mATX maybe, mini-itx not likely as the manufacturing volumes are still pretty low. Thing is it's getting better.

I don't think you really sacrifice performance, you might sacrifiy overclockability but not overall performance. Biggest sacrifice is exapndability, especially with mini-ITX. Micro ATX is becoming the defacto standard and eventually it'll become cheaper than full ATX because..well it uses less components. Once volume is comparable between form factors price should reflect the size.

I like mini ITX because of space, also some WOW factor when you see this small PC that performs about the same as my full tower. Also in my particular case shipping costs. Shipping from USA to Ecuador is cheaper with smaller components and I sell these lil PCs so it's a huge advantage for me.

There are some compromises of course, as cooling and powering higher end components but it's all getting easier as the time passes.
 
No sacrifices here...:p

DSC00574.jpg


ScreenHunter_01Oct251251.jpg
 
Just liked the sexy of Lian Li q08 (on its way to me).

Mostly was the looks and size as it will sit next to my TV, at least initially. Considering the 6 drive bay it might become a home server if I go tower case. And it will still be able to sit next to my TV and be a media center.
 
I am all about the challenge of cramming "big system" parts into as small a case as possible :D
 
The challenge, I guess. You have to worry about fitting large PSUs (even those that are branded as SFF PSUs are still in fact, too big), long video cards, decent heatsink for over-clocked CPUs. All in all, the performance is similar to a Tower with the same components and a ATX board. So no, I don't think SFF PCs have to lose performance just because it is in a small package.
 
For me, it's about getting the system that best meets my needs, mainly single monitor gaming. 4 years ago, that meant an ATX mid-tower with an overclocked CPU and 600W power supply. But monitor resolutions haven't really changed much since then (if anything they've gotten worse, as most consumer level monitors now seem to come at 1920X1080 max, regardless of screen size). So I need a lot less PC these days to push my games to the limits that I need. In doing so I manage to gain back some of the space on my desk and save a little money at the same time. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
Do you consider the space savings worth it, considering the performance sacrifices that are often made?

---This is a thing of the past unless you're talking phase-change setups and 3 or more video cards. For all but the ludicrously wealthy/extreme overclockers, today's SFF can hang with your typical OC'd desktop.

Is it about portability? Perhaps the lower cost of some of the parts?

--It's about maximum power in minimum space for portability.

Or is it more about the challenge of building in a restricted space?

--this as well

What inspires you to go SFF?

--large e-penis in a deceptively small package.
 
Perhaps I should have said "overclocking headroom sacrifices" instead of strictly performance sacrifices in general. Overclocking and expandability are always sacrificed I would argue. I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing.

MassiveOverkill said:
--large e-penis in a deceptively small package.
Click to expand...

Win.

I am also interested in hearing more about how many people use their SFF system for a significant amount of 3D gaming or other GPU intensive work.
 
The Oatman said:
Perhaps I should have said "overclocking headroom sacrifices" instead of strictly performance sacrifices in general. Overclocking and expandability are always sacrificed I would argue. I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Right there, with sandy bridge overclocking is going to be less common and Intel Turbo does help and makes overclocking an enthusiast only issue now.
 
fr500 said:
Right there, with sandy bridge overclocking is going to be less common and Intel Turbo does help and makes overclocking an enthusiast only issue now.
Click to expand...

I have been thinking along the same lines and I am glad you feel the same way. This is one of the reasons why I think small form factor computing is going to gain more followers in the near future.
 
For me I like SFF just because I can.. I had many many years buying the biggest cases possible & well.. It got old. I Dont have any space issues, Dont move my Computer around or any other reason that would really justify a mITX, but I just dig em..

A big portion of it is as pointed out above, I Dont put as much into my system as I used to. The only HDD is a 2.5" SSD as I have a home server for all my storage needs. Video cards I refuse to pay the top notch premium for as I stick to bang for buck (9600gt, 260 gtx, 5830 (got for less then I could buy a 5770 for at the time) & now a 6850. So its pretty solid that I go upper midrange or lower Gaming. So I dont need a 13" video card or anything like that.

And I like having a itty bitty tower sitting next to my 28" lcd.. Just looks neat to have the monitor tower over the tower.
 
My wife liked the idea of SFF for her gaming rig, but she said she didn't need anything as powerful as I use. Since she rarely plays anything except The Sims 3 on her pc. The little rig in my sig plays it rather nicely, and the GT240 is a bit underrated, It was expensive, but it fits in a Q-07 which doesn't have much room at all for a discrete GPU.

HOWEVER....it's a PITA to work on since I added the two extra 120mm fans...
 
the only reason to go matx and full atx is the extra pci-e slots, sata, usb etc... In other words, you get more options..

Stability wise, mitx rivals the likes of all thos bigger boards unless you want to OC like crazy.

Why I like it small? Simple, coz its small...lol cant really explain it.. haha.
 
Well, it's the space savings mostly for me. There's no real performance loss, either, unless you compare to tri-SLI or extreme overclocks, stuff I don't do. But in general I found it stupid to keep using space-hogging ATX systems when I was only using 1-2 expansion cards and usually two hard drives. ATX was just a waste of space. Mini-ITX can do all I need, but this Micro-ATX setup I have at the moment does have some additional benefits especially as I don't move the computer all that often nowadays.
 
wonSR4 said:
....... I also wanted a bigger computer case because I wanted a lot of hard drives, but now that hard drives have 2TB capacities and growing, there isn't really a need for that many hard drives until it's a server.....
Click to expand...

Same here. Once I shifted to SSD, and built a WHS box using a SFF Shuttle case, I don't store anything on the C: drive anymore. All my music is on the WHS, and I only ever install 1 game at a time now.

I have a LL-A05 now and a few months ago, I removed the SATA and power cables on the optical drive to see if I would do without....and I could. I hardly install anything through OD anymore and I just burn the few games I've played to ISO on my wife's iMac and then dump the ISO on the WHS box. (D-Tools plus NO-CD *patches* FTW!) There's always STEAM as well.

My next case will be a LL 354 and a mobo with on-board X-FI. Then I can get rid of the soundcard as well.

I don't think I will go back to ATX, just the same way I'll never buy another case with a front-panel door.

In my case, I don't necessarily think its about the physical space the case saves, but I just don't like the idea of 'wasted space' inside the case, and even in the mobo itself.
 
The Oatman said:
Perhaps I should have said "overclocking headroom sacrifices" instead of strictly performance sacrifices in general. Overclocking and expandability are always sacrificed I would argue. I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing.
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure how much this is even that much of a concern these days. Look through the SFF boards and you can find more than a few people getting pretty ridiculous overclocks on mini ITX systems sporting H50s. Expandability, yes, you do lose that. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find a person (even on [H]ard|Forum) whose actual power needs (as opposed to e-peen) can't be met by some sort of SFF system.
 
I went SFF because I did not need all of the extra PCI sockets and I had about the same performance out of mATX as I did ATX. As Itchy said, you do lose the option for extreme expandability: it made me choose between a second video card and using a sound card due to this limitation; however, I was sold on the size. I wanted something with a small footprint that would be easily transportable through college and there after because I knew I was going to be relocating frequently.
 
The Oatman said:
Overclocking and expandability are always sacrificed I would argue.
Click to expand...

Maybe for mini ITX, but not really for micro ATX. The latest socket 1366 boards for mATX are pretty much as overclockable as their ATX brethren and support SLI/Crossfire, plus most of the mini tower or cube mATX cases support at least 4 drives.

tvih said:
But in general I found it stupid to keep using space-hogging ATX systems when I was only using 1-2 expansion cards and usually two hard drives. ATX was just a waste of space.
Click to expand...

This. For many, many years I haven't had more than 2 cards in my system, and while I currently have a bunch of HDDs, that's because my server is nearly empty of HDDs (takes time/effort to move stuff around :p ). My LAN party rigs have been SFF (mATX except for latest ITX) since 2006, but I'm still on ATX with my main desktop rig, partly because it sits on the floor and the ports are at a convenient height on the top. :cool:

Perhaps the converse question could be asked?

Since arguably the majority of ATX rigs are fairly empty*, why such ginormous ATX cases?

With 2TB HDDs under $100, single graphics cards able to max out most games at common resolutions and overclocking common down to mini ITX, why would anyone need ATX?

*I base this on what I see at LAN parties, and at least 80% of the systems have no more than two expansion cards and four drives, so most can live just fine with mATX, and probably a good 10-20% can live with mini ITX.
 
Zap said:
Perhaps the converse question could be asked?

Since arguably the majority of ATX rigs are fairly empty*, why such ginormous ATX cases?

With 2TB HDDs under $100, single graphics cards able to max out most games at common resolutions and overclocking common down to mini ITX, why would anyone need ATX?
Click to expand...

This very fact is what drives these questions for me. It seems that full ATX systems, large towers, etc, are a dying breed in what could pass for mainstream in the computer gaming culture.
 
Efficiency.

In this case, efficiency of space. I'm an engineer, and I'm obsessed with optimization and efficiency haha.

I'm the same way with cars - I drive an s2k, and before that, and I had a first gen MR2. Compensation for the bigness in my pants maybe ;).

My Lian Li A05n just arrived and I'm about to jam a full watercooled ATX system into it, including a triple rad. I can't wait =).
 
My first two PC builds ever were Shuttle SFFs -- I upgraded one day to ATX for something powerful enough to handle lab work, but as that became my home PC and I moved around NYC, it became increasingly annoying. I'm going back to SFF with my next build.

That, and during NBA games I'll be able to move my PC to the TV to switch back and forth between the game and my comp.
 
For the most part, all I'd ever really need can be had in a Mini-itx system or a Micro ATX system. I bet for many it's the same. Even SLI / Xfire can be had on mATX boards now if you can fit it in the case and cool it.

Personally I don't have one, but I understand it and I can appreciate why it's desirable. Hell my next setup might be SFF.
 
I am feeling like giving up my custom-build. I got a few parts like hdd, bd-rom, and ram already, but then I saw ASRock Vision 3D. Sure, it's not an AMD 6850 or even a NVIDIA GTX 460 or, heck, a desktop GPU, but I think it is good enough for a lanparty while being significantly smaller than the Silverstone SG07. I hope by the time it is released, they will have other laptop GPU choices.

That Vision 3D is one shiny and sexy little box.
 
CHANG3D said:
I am feeling like giving up my custom-build. I got a few parts like hdd, bd-rom, and ram already, but then I saw ASRock Vision 3D. Sure, it's not an AMD 6850 or even a NVIDIA GTX 460 or, heck, a desktop GPU, but I think it is good enough for a lanparty while being significantly smaller than the Silverstone SG07. I hope by the time it is released, they will have other laptop GPU choices.

That Vision 3D is one shiny and sexy little box.
Click to expand...

while I do believe it is one shiny and sexy little box, I doubt it will game good enough to play anything at decent rates with anything other then ultralow settings. I just honestly dont believe NV can put out a decent GPU that small.
 
Current trends will no doubt bring us mobile components that soon will be capable of running games at decent frame rates. Too bad Blizzard is doing its best to kill LAN gaming. What would really make something like the Vision 3D shine (or its more powerful eventual successor) would be a couch controller that can really replace the mouse and keyboard (i.e. the holy grail of console gaming).
 
In my case it was that I was getting tired of these huge heavy cases that sat on the floor and collected lots of dust and pet dander. We have cats and dogs. So I wanted something that sat up on a desk and where I could see it but not take up a lot of room. I started looking at the SFF products. About the same time the mobo manufacturers started coming out with mATX mobos that would actually overclock really nice. I jumped in and haven"t looked back. Being up on a desk doesn't have the dust problem as to being on a floor. And, yes, we vacuum, sweep, and dust regularly.

Now these new iTX models that are coming out are looking enticing but as a gamer I want one that can fit, hold, and power the biggest GPUs. I'm not yet satisfied enough to make the jump down to their size yet. Maybe next year they'll make something to compel me to make the move. For now though mATX SFF is good enough. :)
 
Skott said:
In my case it was that I was getting tired of these huge heavy cases that sat on the floor and collected lots of dust and pet dander. We have cats and dogs. So I wanted something that sat up on a desk and where I could see it but not take up a lot of room. I started looking at the SFF products. About the same time the mobo manufacturers started coming out with mATX mobos that would actually overclock really nice. I jumped in and haven"t looked back. Being up on a desk doesn't have the dust problem as to being on a floor. And, yes, we vacuum, sweep, and dust regularly.

Now these new iTX models that are coming out are looking enticing but as a gamer I want one that can fit, hold, and power the biggest GPUs. I'm not yet satisfied enough to make the jump down to their size yet. Maybe next year they'll make something to compel me to make the move. For now though mATX SFF is good enough. :)
Click to expand...

What makes something like the SG07 not good enough? I was just reading a review where they stuck a 5970 in there and it performed very well.
 
You can get pretty much anything you want into a MATX system, including SLI/Crossfire. The only problem I have with mine is working on it is a pain. To change anything I need to mostly disassemble the system.

Here's a shot of the internals of my system (what you can't see is just as bad), this is with a short-cabled PSU, without would be unbelievable. I really enjoy my system, but I may upsize a bit for the next one. Something like the Lian Li A05N, a little more space would make my life a lot easier.

After this picture I added a Sound-Blaster X-Fi and OCZ Vertex 2 (3M adhesive to the top of the case).
IMG_0709-1.jpg
 
Flunk said:
You can get pretty much anything you want into a MATX system, including SLI/Crossfire. The only problem I have with mine is working on it is a pain. To change anything I need to mostly disassemble the system.

Here's a shot of the internals of my system (what you can't see is just as bad), this is with a short-cabled PSU, without would be unbelievable. I really enjoy my system, but I may upsize a bit for the next one. Something like the Lian Li A05N, a little more space would make my life a lot easier.

After this picture I added a Sound-Blaster X-Fi and OCZ Vertex 2 (3M adhesive to the top of the case).
IMG_0709-1.jpg
Click to expand...

that looks like a nightmare.. what case is that.
 
Well, the SG03 screams for a short PSU, such as my Nexus. Having one allows to get rid of the extra cable mess for the most part, at least, since you can tuck them above the PSU. And I don't use that shiny metal bracket below the PSU either, it's not needed with a lighter PSU and when you don't need the external 3.5" slot.

That said, there certainly are easier cases to work with.
 
Flunk said:
You can get pretty much anything you want into a MATX system, including SLI/Crossfire. The only problem I have with mine is working on it is a pain. To change anything I need to mostly disassemble the system.
Click to expand...

and to prove a point, here is a SG03 with 5870CF

http://img.whirltools.com/i/image1flf.jpg

more to a question of why not SFF? a good majority of the ATX builds are under used with a single GPU on it and nothing else
 
I went SFF because I was sick of all the space a huge tower took up, and I didn't see a need for all the expansion slots, ect, because I'm not a gamer. So the SFF fits me perfectly, I can fit what I need, tweak what I want, and I'm aesthetically pleased with how the case sits on my computer.
 
The reason I want a SFF is that I have a longhair dog and long carpet so I need to put my desktop on my table which already has a tv, laptop, xbox, ps, and an abundance of controllers/keyboard/mouse/remotes/speakers on. And I'm also tired of hauling my tv, xbox, ps3, and/or desktop (usually some combination of the three) to my friends' house. Not that a SFF would make it a significantly less of a hassle, but it would less. I mostly play games that doesn't require a whole lot of gpu on the pc. My laptop is a core i5 without a discreet and it cannot even play civ5 well, but any recent laptop GPU from NV and AMD could. That is why I am attracted to the Vision 3D.

I currently have a tower mATX case with wireless keyboard, mouse, and ethernet, that also doubles as my HTPC. And it is too big.
 
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