Why oh why do ISP's recommend NOT using routers?

I

insanarchist

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 3, 2004
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I work at a computer service/repair shop and I've lost count of how many people have come in and had several hundred virii/spyware/adware within months, weeks, sometimes days of getting a new computer. I ask every single one of them if they use a router on their high-speed connection and around 95% of them don't. None of their ISP's had recommended using a router, and several even said NOT to! While I realize routers aren't the be-all-and-end-all of anti-spyware/virus solutions, they do do a great job of filtering most of the random-ip-scanning, auto-loading/installing virri out there. Can somebody explain to me why the hell cable/dsl companies don't offer routers with their service? I mean, they don't take much configuration (just as much as configuring a static ip on a computer, sometimes less), and it could potentially be an extra $30-$75 for every single new customer they have.

/rant
 
Because any extra support they have to do because of a router is a loss, while it's not their problem if a user gets infected with something, perhaps?
 
I'd say the one major thing is...."support". It's nearly impossible for them to train their support group about all those different brands out there.

Now on the other side of things.....it's good to see that many DSL ISPs are now shipping their setups with little modem/bridges with built in routers (brouters)...such as SBC and Verizon...because I agree with you, being behind a little NAT box is the best thing to protect your PC (besides leaving it turned off...LOL). A couple of years ago you hardly ever saw the ISP ship the setup with a router...except for some business packages with Netopias or something.
 
I dunno, in my experience, once a router's set up, there's really no support necessary.

Although it is nice that some DSL companies are including routers in their modems, I've had to deal with a couple of these "in the wild", and since they aren't labeled 'modem/router' anywhere, it makes for some very confusing installs when I'm trying to install a separate router.
 
it comes down they want extra money for the ip addys they want you to buy extra a month.
 
Filter said:
it comes down they want extra money for the ip addys they want you to buy extra a month.
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Thats what I'd say too....a router means more computers that can use the same $40 a month connection.
 
Filter said:
it comes down they want extra money for the ip addys they want you to buy extra a month.
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Money money money money...Money!

That and they will never support third-party devices. They'll even tell you if you buy one and have problems to not even bother.
 
Filter said:
it comes down they want extra money for the ip addys they want you to buy extra a month.
Click to expand...

I used to think that...but lately most ISPs are now shipping "setup kits" which have a modem/router.
 
that and extra money for extra IP's isn't always worth it. Which is better? Give a fresh IP to a new $40/mo subscriber, or an extra IP to a current subscriber for $6/mo?

I'll take option number one...
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
I'd say the one major thing is...."support". It's nearly impossible for them to train their support group about all those different brands out there.
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QFT there.

insanarchist said:
I dunno, in my experience, once a router's set up, there's really no support necessary.
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Until it stops working and instead of resetting it, joe blow calls and bitches taking up time.


It boils down to if they distribute a router, its one that they support to some degree. If they dont ship a router, they dont reccomend one. Its all about the support and lack of training.
 
It's worth noting that spyware and the like are still a problem behind a router. Most of it is installed by the end user, who blindly opens anything from email still. A router isn't going to do anything for them.
 
insanarchist said:
I dunno, in my experience, once a router's set up, there's really no support necessary.

Although it is nice that some DSL companies are including routers in their modems, I've had to deal with a couple of these "in the wild", and since they aren't labeled 'modem/router' anywhere, it makes for some very confusing installs when I'm trying to install a separate router.
Click to expand...
Not true. Definately not true. I work support for a cell phone company and wireless ISP. We provide, Dial-up, Wireless Internet, 1xRTT, and Cable Internet. I'm the only support for over 20,000 customers. We install Routers at all of our wireless locations for wireless internet. There's definately support needed. A router for the home user creates lots of problems especially when they want their home networking wireless as well.

I get calls on

My Internet
My Cablebox
I can't get online

People plugging cross connect cables into their router to our stand a lone device.
People trying to "configure" the router and screwing it up. People getting frustrated and "jiggling cables thinking that it will help" then they end up pulling a pair out of a cat-5 cable. People calling when their router fails. People calling when they can't get online because of a wireless failure. There are soo many issues added when you put a router into the mix.

No router
---------------
Central Office
End User

Router
------------
Central Office
Router
Wireless (maybe)
End User

Have you ever tried to walk a 50 year old lady into going to msconfig... WHAT? Mfcon what? MG? It won't load. The computer wont click it. The email was clicking fine yesterday and now it won't click anymore. I'm tired of your service nothing works blah blah blah. And the people don't understand it's not the service it's the user.

Thanks you /end rant.
 
Wow, I guess I've just been lucky when it comes to customers/support calls. It just sucks that so many problems could be solved by people using routers instead of plugging directly into their modems. Of course, there are several other things that could be solved by something seemingly simple, yet so hard to comprehend for the average user.
 
Have you ever tried to walk a 50 year old lady into going to msconfig... WHAT? Mfcon what? MG? It won't load. The computer wont click it. The email was clicking fine yesterday and now it won't click anymore. I'm tired of your service nothing works blah blah blah.
Click to expand...


HAHAHAHAHA. That made me chuckle. I've definately encountered users like that.
:p
 
i do support on the 2wire routers that are supplied with SBC Yahoo DSL's home networking kits..


only thing SBC supports I believe are the 2wire routers and the speedstream modems. The 2wire routers are the best thing EVER. the routers are custom built on top of a freebsd kernel and have firewalling which is more efficient than PIX

they beat out every little piece of shit linksys, netgear, belkin router ever made.


if you have DSL, or any modem... see if you can get your hands on a 2wire router. here's a link

http://www.2wire.com/
 
Stang Man said:
only thing SBC supports I believe are the 2wire routers and the speedstream modems. The 2wire routers are the best thing EVER. the routers are custom built on top of a freebsd kernel and have firewalling which is more efficient than PIX

they beat out every little piece of shit linksys, netgear, belkin router ever made.
]
Click to expand...

They also support Netopia 3500 series gateways, and Efficient Speedstream routers....The Netopias are often installed for the 6 meg business DSL accounts, I love 'em..fast and stable.

I disagree about the 2Wire routers..I've worked with quite a few of those models, especially the past few months, even have one in my box full of "miscellaneous routers" at home. They're....well, strange...they sure evolved on their own. I don't find their wireless range very good, heck..many of the models don't even support MAC filtering security for wireless?!?!?!. Port forwarding is a bit strange too....forwarding to the NetBIOS name of the machine instead of an IP address. The way the DHCP client list rarely clears itself, makes it a pain when you need to configure something for a machine and have to pick through the details of the half dozen repeat "ghost" entries.

Most home market routers run on a flavor of *nix BTW...not a feature unique to 2Wire.
 
As a DSL provider in Qwest Areas and now a Fiber to the Premise provider in a community I have to say that while I agree that routers make for a large PITA on the support side they have helped overall network security in some ways. It all depends how you setup your support desk. We ship DSL modems with built in firewalls, when we set them up we have a specific high port number that is only accessable from 1 IP address per the ACL's setup on our edge router. From there we can remotely get into the modems/firewalls and diagnose from our support desk as opposed to trying to troulbeshoot the problem from the customers side. With just a DSL modem we wouldn't have the capability to do this as the DSL modems I standardized the company on were simply that, just modems, the computer they are connected to sent the authentication information when the DSL modem connections. The support calls were so bad on these that I ended up making the call to remove these from our product catalog.

As for the fiber to the premise customers we recommend a firewall but tell customers that we cannot troubleshoot. Luckily we can troubleshoot in no time where the problem is and can easily advise the customer if the issue is on the our side or their side.
 
TeamStrykerCore said:
Have you ever tried to walk a 50 year old lady into going to msconfig... WHAT? Mfcon what? MG? It won't load. The computer wont click it. The email was clicking fine yesterday and now it won't click anymore. I'm tired of your service nothing works blah blah blah. And the people don't understand it's not the service it's the user.

Thanks you /end rant.
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...hell ya...like every friggin day.....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh

:D :mad:
 
I didn't read this entire thread fully, but this may come as a surprise to some of you. Comcast is now shipping Motorola "Surfboard" modems that have hidden routers in them. You wouldn't know by looking at the Modems Package or Spec. The only way "Information" wise to find out is to read the Manuel from Motorolas website, and no the included manuel does not state that it has a router. It has been rumored that Comcast has the ability to go right into your home network via how the router is setup when shipped from them to the end user.

Raystream
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
I used to think that...but lately most ISPs are now shipping "setup kits" which have a modem/router.
Click to expand...
yup got my self install kit and it included a actiontech wireless router/modem.
 
Raystream said:
I didn't read this entire thread fully, but this may come as a surprise to some of you. Comcast is now shipping Motorola "Surfboard" modems that have hidden routers in them. You wouldn't know by looking at the Modems Package or Spec. The only way "Information" wise to find out is to read the Manuel from Motorolas website, and no the included manuel does not state that it has a router. It has been rumored that Comcast has the ability to go right into your home network via how the router is setup when shipped from them to the end user.

Raystream
Click to expand...

SBC ships 2Wire DSL modems that have a router, four-port switch, and 802.11b WAPs. They also have a USB port for inital config/single PC users.
 
PopeKevinI said:
SBC ships 2Wire DSL modems that have a router, four-port switch, and 802.11b WAPs. They also have a USB port for inital config/single PC users.
Click to expand...


Most DSL ISPs are shipping setup kits with "brouters"...bridge/routers. SBC also ships home setups with Speedstream units setup with NAT router enabled, and the option of USB, as well as Netopia 3500 units. Another ISP near me uses Elastic Network branded devices, and Verizon usually uses Westel brand brouters.

It's cable ISPs that are the rare case,
 
TeamStrykerCore said:
Have you ever tried to walk a 50 year old lady into going to msconfig... WHAT? Mfcon what? MG? It won't load. The computer wont click it. The email was clicking fine yesterday and now it won't click anymore. I'm tired of your service nothing works blah blah blah. And the people don't understand it's not the service it's the user.
Click to expand...

This is my life. I'm an escalation tech for an extremely large broadband ISP (name withheld to protect the idiocy), so when people refuse to believe the PC or the user are to blame, it goes to me so that I can tell them. They think they're speaking to someone of authority and are more willing to accept it.

Old folks and foreigners are the hardest to deal with, as you can imagine, but NOTHING pisses me off more than people that constantly say "I don't know this, I'm not smart with computers." I just want to say "well then shut the fuck up and listen to me, and we'll get through this. Instead of saying you can't, how about you listen and then do it?"

I could vent for hours, but I won't.

In regards to the original topic, we support Linksys routers because we provide them to customers that need a router, though if anything goes wrong, the first thing we do is remove that sumbitch and try to eliminate it as a problem. That's all it is, just another thing in the chain that can go wrong.
 
I guess I got lucky with bellsouth.

Instead of the regular internal DSL modem they give everyone else, they gave me a Netopia 5 port modem/router w/ wireless for free. All I did was ask for the damn thing over theyre internal modem and they obliged, could be something with the fact that at the time when I got my 3 megabit connection it was expensive as shit!!!! lol
Anyhoo back to the subject at hand
Ive been to several peoples houses having numerous problems with their broadband installations, replacing hubs with a router and some switches works wonders!!!!
 
sparkomatic said:
I guess I got lucky with bellsouth.

Instead of the regular internal DSL modem they give everyone else, they gave me a Netopia 5 port modem/router w/ wireless for free. All I did was ask for the damn thing over theyre internal modem and they obliged, could be something with the fact that at the time when I got my 3 megabit connection it was expensive as shit!!!! lol
Anyhoo back to the subject at hand
Ive been to several peoples houses having numerous problems with their broadband installations, replacing hubs with a router and some switches works wonders!!!!
Click to expand...

I see Bell South commercials on TV...they brag about prices that would get me twice as much bandwidth with SBC.

$25 for 3M down/768k up
 
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