HardOCP News
[H] News
- Joined
- Dec 31, 1969
- Messages
- 0
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Why Microsoft Loves Linux
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
Shmee
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2014
- Messages
- 1,148
He seems like a pretty smart guy. I am interested to see what his company turns in to.
Red Falcon
[H]ard DCOTM December 2023
- Joined
- May 7, 2007
- Messages
- 12,445
Microsoft's goals aren't designed to work with Linux, this is just a ploy to get Microsoft-based products embedded into Linux OSes and distros, and make the Linux community eventually work for Microsoft.
They can save this nonsense for their PR campaigns.
One does not stop a moving train by standing in front of it.
They do so by getting on board.
I admit, Nadella isn't stupid, but then again, neither is the Linux community.
Ballmer wanted to crush and destroy.
Nadella wants to poison, enslave, and oppress.
Sounds pretty extreme, right?
Let's talk about this again a decade from now and see where everything is at.
Cloud-dependency is the wave of the future, sadly.
Consoles, programs, and many games are already doing this.
Computer technology is in for some dark times unless things start to change for the better.
They can save this nonsense for their PR campaigns.
One does not stop a moving train by standing in front of it.
They do so by getting on board.
I admit, Nadella isn't stupid, but then again, neither is the Linux community.
Ballmer wanted to crush and destroy.
Nadella wants to poison, enslave, and oppress.
Sounds pretty extreme, right?
Let's talk about this again a decade from now and see where everything is at.
Cloud-dependency is the wave of the future, sadly.
Consoles, programs, and many games are already doing this.
Computer technology is in for some dark times unless things start to change for the better.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Already more than a decade has past since Ballmer called Linux "a cancer". And it would seem that Microsoft moved past that type of thinking some time ago.
When you look at something like Azure, and the sheer amount of things that it supports across different platforms and that can be stood up quickly and as the price declines, it's just inventible the cloud world is going to grow. The success of the cloud, like any technology comes down to price and cost effectiveness and now those numbers are starting to play into the clouds favor.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Windows RT 2, The Wrath of Chaka Khan.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Eventually we will see Lindows. Years ago they bought the trademark in 2001
This article was really about the backend, desktop Linux is another matter. And the Lindows thing, yeah. Cause changing the first letter of a market leading product is never a problem.
Microsoft should stay as far away from Linux as it can, at least where the desktop OS is concerned. That world is so fragmented its ridiculous. I don't think even the SteamOS will make much of a dent if/when it ever gets released.
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2013
- Messages
- 1,289
"Fragmented" but has had a longer period of stable api and abi than windows could ever dream of.. You try runni ga windows applicarion written in 95 on win8
This whole "fragmented" argument is juat a Non sequitur digression.
A distro really is a bunch of like minded induviduals packaging together software around a package manager...
There really is only like 5 distros. If you can get something working on one distro you can be sure you can get it working on any. The way shared libs work in UNIX helps facilitate this
This whole "fragmented" argument is juat a Non sequitur digression.
A distro really is a bunch of like minded induviduals packaging together software around a package manager...
There really is only like 5 distros. If you can get something working on one distro you can be sure you can get it working on any. The way shared libs work in UNIX helps facilitate this
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Semantics
2[H]4U
- Joined
- May 18, 2010
- Messages
- 2,811
Ease of use with current marketplace of hardware and software.
If your talking gaming, which is what it would take to get any desktop market share then your "lottery lucky" if you can get many game to "just work". Hope your an expert with cli and searching forums/google. So many UI's, packages, dependencies, kernels which can all cause issues. And gosh forbid any hardware driver(s) doesn't install correctly during OS install.
I lol'd.
No kidding - I actually AM really solid with PCs, and dual-booted Linux and Windows for a while, but never really got into gaming on Linux as it was DOS 6.x flashback-time trying to get anything to work.
Steam's Linux port has improved things tremendously, but even then - was jumping through hoops to get a few titles working with it, having to hunt down specific driver revisions, it's just...miles and miles from the Windows-Steam experience of 'click buy, wait a minute or two, then play'.
I want nothing to do with it, will end poorly one way or another.
westrock2000
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2005
- Messages
- 9,433
Allowing alternative filesystems would be a nice gesture of good will.
Windows does gaming/multimedia very well. Linux does command line and data handeling very well. It's ok that they are different.
Windows does gaming/multimedia very well. Linux does command line and data handeling very well. It's ok that they are different.
Ashbringer
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2010
- Messages
- 5,522
People tend to forget that Android is Linux and it's fragmented as hell, but it works and nobody complains. But yea in desktop linux you have Debian/Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, and Suse as primary distros. Every other distro is basically an extension of these. About 60% of distros are Debian based. On top of that nearly all Linux distros are essentially the same damn thing. There are very few differences between one distro to another. Ubuntu is Debian with updated applications and a UI ripped from Gnome 3 they call Unity, but is essentially Gnome 3. Mint is Ubuntu with slightly different included applications and the Cinnamon UI, which is just a modified Gnome 3 UI. Elementary OS is Ubuntu with yada yada and the UI is called Pantheon and it's based off Gnome 2.
Guess what are the top 3 Linux OS's? Yep, the ones I listed. But for the most part a Linux distro is just a few guys in a garage who happen to be walking down the linux isle in linux Walmart. Picking pieces off a shelf and assembling it into a distro with a custom UI. That is how the Linux do.
But whenever Windows fans/employee's hear about Linux the inevitable fragmentation argument is bound to be thrown around. Despite that nobody using Linux complains and that Windows isn't exactly fragmentation free. You have Windows 7 Starter, Home Basic, Premium, Professional, Enterprise, and Ultimate. Then there's DirectX 10 for Vista and not XP. Maybe DX12 for Windows 10 and not 7.
Linux fragmentation means someone thought they should make a custom UI cause that's what seems cool to them. Windows fragmentation means Microsoft wants to force your ass to upgrade, so no DX12 for you Windows 7 users. That is not how Linux do.
Dr. Righteous
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2007
- Messages
- 3,163
Exactly. This "BUT linux is FRAGMENTED" argument is meaningless.
What does that mean? It is only pointing out there is FREEDOM to make choices in the linux world and groups of people customize and distribute a version of linux they like better.
There IS NO SUCH FREEDOM with Windows. It is LOCKED DOWN, and you get what you get and there is nothing you can do about it.
IF you don't like the massive overhead with 5 thousands processes running that have NOTHING to do with the thing you need to do with your computer; too bad. This is WINDOWS.
With Linux, you have the complete freedom to chose what kind of OS you want. As fat and flashy as UBuntu, as Minimal as ARCH; and lots of variations in between.
And guess what. It's FREE.
BladeVenom
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2005
- Messages
- 7,707
Nadella understands technology better than Ballmer.
Windows 10 is going to get a Linux like package manager, OneGet.
Windows 10 is going to get a Linux like package manager, OneGet.
Thank you for proving my point of how fragmented Linux is. Every one of those different distro's, UI's, packages, etc., using the same "Linux kernel" (that's even hard to say since there are so many revisions) can cause users all sorts of unique issues and crashes, That increases the chances of problems exponentially, especially for something as simple as installing and running modern 3D games. Nobody cares what Kernel an OS like Linux/MS uses. They just want their games to work. Linux distro's are fragmented way to much to have any impact on desktops.
I agree, I don't know what would MS want with Linux.. it would be nice to see office on it.
I do wonder if MS is realizing Linux will be the backbone of competitors clouds and they need to embed themselves NOW, you know to get royalties ala Android (?) I guess.
I agree with the statement about the cloud.... I too personally see it as a bad idea.. what I do wonder is, if competition would sky-rocket (?).. I mean if devices are to become front-end handlers in many ways, then what is to stop Google from making their own awesome cloud for less, or HP, or Dell/WYSE, or Amazon.. I mean Google already has android.. It seems to me its a hop, skip and a jump to full-blown function from desktop front-end to tablets to phones.
Maybe someday choosing and 'OS' will be a matter of saying.. hmmm.. I can get XYZ software with MS, or GHF with Google for this much.. I can get open stuff with GOOGLE, Apple is a walled garden... let me think!, I am going with the HP clould.. you know something like this.
I am going to have to call bull shit on your post. You run into similar issues on Linux.
First off software doesn't care if you have windows home basic, premium, ... a program made to run on windows 7 will run on all of them, programs for windows 8 runs on all of none RT versions... Your directX example is just an example of new enhancements being made to the OS that they aren't going to put into older versions. Which happens in Linux also
I have seen many times where you can only run a certain distro & release level of Linux for a given program. And in a few cases have even seen were you can't upgrade the distro then as that would upgrade some given program which would break some other program due to it not being.
I have had driver support vanish from one release of Linux to the next because they didn't want to rewrite them for new versions of the OS.
at the end of the day just remember this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPRvc2UMeMI
Ashbringer
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2010
- Messages
- 5,522
You're right to one degree but different Linux distros don't have problems running applications. On the other hand different Windows versions come with different software. Stuff that I would consider standard is being used to fragment the OS's. You don't see Apple doing this with Mac OS X.
It's also been proven in the past that DirectX10 could be done on XP. Bad enough move that nobody ever used DX10.
I've never had that problem. Though upgrading a linux distro doesn't mean you lose your UI, unlike Windows 8. You like Metro UI and shutup. Sorry, Modern UI which means it's better. On linux the demand for Gnome 2 was so high that people made Mate. Just cause you upgrade your linux distro doesn't mean you lose your favorite UI.
Most drivers now are open source. Even AMD has announced they plan to go open source with their drivers.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Proven how? I'm not saying that it could have been done, but what would have been the effort and how much work would have had to be done to XP and then retested?
I have tried to use many programs / services that are distro specific. They might work on Red Hat but not Debian, or for some work on Red Hat but not Centos or work on Debian but not Ubuntu, or vice versa. None of them desktop program mine you but server side applications.
Anything could be done on anything. I am sure if you spend enough time you can make windows 98 64-bit, the question is when do you stop working on the old OS and start working only on new ones. What you are talking about for DirectX 10 actually required somebody to write new compatibility patches for windows XP. Which sure Microsoft could have rewrote parts of Windows XP, but at some point you stop trying to upgrade the old OS and move onto the new one. Which again I have broke programs because they work in Centos X but not the next release, or work in Debian X but not the next release. Then have to spend hours trying to figure out how to get all the older versions of programs that I need and what I need to manually edit to get the software working again because it didn't like my upgrade.
And actually wasn't it GNOME 3 that added a new UI where you had a bunch of icons when you clicked on your application list that filled the entire screen instead of giving you a start menu type text list? I know there was a release where they made a massive change to the UI because I recall years before windows 8 somebody showing me how they upgraded their desktop manager and hated it, they also didn't like how it killed their computer due to the amount of memory and cpu power needed to display the application list.
The example I was referring to for drivers was trying to use SAS multipath with Dell servers and external hardware arrays. The drivers and software needed for this functionality works on Windows and old versions of Red Hat, can't use it on current versions of Red Hat. I have also had Dell server drivers get removed from updates before, however I was able to acquire them from a different computer and just mount a drive with them. that still is a pain when you are upgrading a server and lose your network cards because while v X.Y had the drivers v X.Z removed them. But that is still different than having drivers that are not open source and you are stick with no working method to use features / devices that you need to use such as sas multipath for servers connected to their drives in a raid enclosure.
Ashbringer
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2010
- Messages
- 5,522
You really can't compare Linux to Windows in that sense. Linux doesn't artificially limit anything. As for programs I really never experience that problem. I have experienced programs that needs packages to get working, but anything off the repository just works.
And that's why Mint and Elementary OS have more users than Ubuntu. The pendulum swings both ways.
If the drivers were removed maybe that Dell server is old hardware? That's the only reason why the driver is removed. They do this with Wifi. As hardware becomes legacy the linux guys slowly remove stuff to try to keep things from growing out of control. I have a old laptop from 2002 that i wanted to get working and I had to download B43 legacy drivers to get it working.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Artificial isn't the same as financial. Desktop Linux doesn't have financial constraints, in as much as Linux code can be modified without any need to recoup costs and make a profit. Windows biggest true strength is that it can still be monetized directly, i.e. it can be sold independently of anything else in most situations still. But it's kind of it's biggest weakness as well. Linux's biggest strength is that it doesn't need direct monetization. But until developers don't need food or housing or all win the lottery there has to be some way to monetize it.
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2013
- Messages
- 1,289
Still spinning the "fragmented" argument when it isn't relevant to linux ...
EVERY distro pools from the same source for EVERY package... gimp, kde, firefox... They just the choose what to add by default.
I can take an Ubuntu and make it exactly like Kubuntu all without even touching the command line.
This isn't fractured like Android or Windows (with XP & Win7...) this is diversity
With Android there is stuff that you just cannot do between versions. The same with windows the same with OSX..
The diversity of linux distributions does not enable one to be better and one thing than another and that is why the whole "Fractured" is a non-sequitur
It was fractured back in the late 90's when there was Kernel 2.4.x and the updates to the core libraries (that all distributions used) was few and far between RESULTING in each distro carrying massive patchsets before *some* were merged into upstream. This did result in some pretty significant differences in how applications worked .. distro to distro. FRACTURED
That changed almost a decade ago & with GIT being used for all the main project, all distro's are now almost all in sync, where it actually matters to ensure compatibility between distro's.
YES there has been fracturing in the pass when there were big changes
2.4.x --> 2.6.x (2.6.x --> 3.x was transparent as there was no api/abi breakage) until attrition removed the old
pthread --> ntpl until attrition removed the old
Both of these were a decade ago...
Take modelsim, big simulation package it's only official supported distros are REDHAT & SUSE .. bam got it immediatly working on my work Ubuntu box without any problems...
Take Matlab again, RH is the only supported distro... worked 1st time on Ubuntu...
Take EFFE (custom application by Bath uni). I just had to use the GUI package installer to install the FORTAN runtime... This program only officially support's GENTOO... bam it works..
Why... shared libs, sane naming of shared libs (to facilitate different versions living side by side) sane development to keep API/ABI compatibility within versions...
XORG, Kernel version 2.6 or later and glibc version 2.11 or later are the typical minimum requirements for matlab (they recently dropped 32bit as well)
kernel 2.6 came out in 2003
glibc 2.11 came out in 2009
EVERY distro pools from the same source for EVERY package... gimp, kde, firefox... They just the choose what to add by default.
I can take an Ubuntu and make it exactly like Kubuntu all without even touching the command line.
This isn't fractured like Android or Windows (with XP & Win7...) this is diversity
With Android there is stuff that you just cannot do between versions. The same with windows the same with OSX..
The diversity of linux distributions does not enable one to be better and one thing than another and that is why the whole "Fractured" is a non-sequitur
It was fractured back in the late 90's when there was Kernel 2.4.x and the updates to the core libraries (that all distributions used) was few and far between RESULTING in each distro carrying massive patchsets before *some* were merged into upstream. This did result in some pretty significant differences in how applications worked .. distro to distro. FRACTURED
That changed almost a decade ago & with GIT being used for all the main project, all distro's are now almost all in sync, where it actually matters to ensure compatibility between distro's.
YES there has been fracturing in the pass when there were big changes
2.4.x --> 2.6.x (2.6.x --> 3.x was transparent as there was no api/abi breakage) until attrition removed the old
pthread --> ntpl until attrition removed the old
Both of these were a decade ago...
Take modelsim, big simulation package it's only official supported distros are REDHAT & SUSE .. bam got it immediatly working on my work Ubuntu box without any problems...
Take Matlab again, RH is the only supported distro... worked 1st time on Ubuntu...
Take EFFE (custom application by Bath uni). I just had to use the GUI package installer to install the FORTAN runtime... This program only officially support's GENTOO... bam it works..
Why... shared libs, sane naming of shared libs (to facilitate different versions living side by side) sane development to keep API/ABI compatibility within versions...
XORG, Kernel version 2.6 or later and glibc version 2.11 or later are the typical minimum requirements for matlab (they recently dropped 32bit as well)
kernel 2.6 came out in 2003
glibc 2.11 came out in 2009
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2013
- Messages
- 1,289
but it isn't fragmented as what works on one works on another.
Thats like saying the automobile industry is fragmented because there are different models YET they use the same road, adhere to the same standards (emissions, indicators, pedels etc..) and use petrol/diesel.
There is nothing wrong with diversity, fragmentation can cause issues but doesn't have to.
Thats like saying the automobile industry is fragmented because there are different models YET they use the same road, adhere to the same standards (emissions, indicators, pedels etc..) and use petrol/diesel.
There is nothing wrong with diversity, fragmentation can cause issues but doesn't have to.
Red Falcon
[H]ard DCOTM December 2023
- Joined
- May 7, 2007
- Messages
- 12,445
Well, when Microsoft started selling Vista, there was truly little reason to switch to it from XP.
So, one the big selling points was DX10.
Why didn't Microsoft patch DX10 into XP?
Because they wanted it to be strictly for Vista in order to sell more licenses of it and push it harder.
It was both artificial, and financial, which makes sense for them, but screws the customers over, especially when there was no real need for them to switch from XP.
Anyone remember this?
Notice in the upper left-hand corner, "Requires Windows Vista", even though this game was obviously DX9 and was released years before DX10 or Vista.
The DX10 version was simply a ploy by Microsoft to get people to buy not only the "new" game, but their new OS as well.
The real bombshell, was that there were virtually no differences between the DX9 and DX10 versions of Halo 2, both visually and technically.
People are becoming weary of Microsoft because of incidents like this, again and again and again.
Microsoft is becoming more and more like a government agency.
They only exist to justify their own existence.
The innovation is gone, and rather than use what works, they constantly screw their loyal customers over and over.
It's sad, because Microsoft wasn't like this back in the 80's and 90's, though they did screw over their competition and allies alike.
Poor Gary Kildall, if only he could have seen how Bill Gates was using him and his ideas.
I would much rather have seen where CP/M would have gone than Windows.
This is a troll right? One of Windows strengths is it's app compat, and the work that goes into making old apps just work.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
CreepyUncleGoogle
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2013
- Messages
- 6,871
I disagree a whole lot-cakes with the crashing thing. I've been using Linux at home on and off for a while now and I've really never seen it crash...ever. Mint, Slackware, Ubuntu, Puppy, Knoppix...all of them have been crash-free even with a novice that was just learning at the keyboard. I think, at least in that one point, your concerns aren't really justified.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
But that's just it. Where's the cost benefit analysis of offering newer features for older OSes? There's a difference between screwing customers and spending money on something that may or may not be worth it. It would be better for Microsoft and consumers I think for Microsoft to simply offer free or low cost Windows upgrades rather than Microsoft spending resources on retrofitting an old OS with new features.
I do, I bought that game. You have some legitimate points but I think, as is the case with detractors of any huge tech company, be it Apple, Google, whomever, the points are overstated.
I just bought an HP Stream 7 Windows 8.1 tablet, $96.51. Pretty low end device, 1 GB RAM/ 32 GB storage but it comes with a year of Office Personal and that's $69 dollars alone. Of course Google has put pressure on Microsoft in the low end and tablet space and Microsoft had to respond accordingly, but in a lot of cases these days, Windows is now free.
It doesn't matter which way the pendulum swings. You stated that there is no program that requires a given distro of Linux but that instead any program made for one (say Red Hat) will work perfectly on every single release of every single other distro. Which isn't true. You stated that Microsoft is the first and only company to ever change the way their UI looks from one release to another. That isn't true.
My comments are just to show that Linux isn't perfect. No OS is. they all have issues, they all have limits.
Ashbringer
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2010
- Messages
- 5,522
The thing is anyone who uses Linux doesn't see the fragmentation issue that you all talk about. I've never sat down and said, "omg I have too many choices for linux". That's like buying cereal and wishing that there was only a handful of choices.
Windows on the other hand has been known to cause fragmentation that people complained, cause Microsoft can be dicks. Take a look at Vista and DirectX10. This wouldn't have been such an issue if Vista didn't suck, but it did and Microsoft wanted everyone to upgrade. People stuck with XP until 7 was released and a lot of people still stick with XP.
Point is Linux fragmentation is a non issue for Linux users. Maybe if you're coming from Windows and you're suddenly overwhelmed with choices, but we all know the one choice that makes sense. You use Ubuntu because it's the most simple Linux there is. I personally don't use it cause I like Mint better, but Ubuntu is the Go To linux distro for noobs. The reason why 60% of distros are based on Debian is because of Ubuntu.
Yup....sounds easy as pie until you actually try to get a person or group switched to using Linux from Windows. Especially if their a gamer. So many delusional Linux fans in here vs reality. There's a reason even IOS has more market share than Linux...
CreepyUncleGoogle
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2013
- Messages
- 6,871
Gamers, I could understand them not wanting to change. They want to use their computers for quick gratification and don't really understand very much about how they work. Sure they can read about some benchmarks and gawk at a chart that says part so-and-so is faster that some other part, but they don't strike me as a very technical, patient, or (thanks to recent activity that's been in the media spotlight) thoughtful. That doesn't work well when the OS has a learning curve of any sort. I mean really, they freaked out over Windows 8 even, why would anyone think they could possibly get Linux or OSX? Too complicated.
Red Falcon
[H]ard DCOTM December 2023
- Joined
- May 7, 2007
- Messages
- 12,445
I think this is why Valve is pushing SteamOS so much.
Minimal learning curve and quick functionality and gratification for their customers.
Why Microsoft hasn't doesn't do this as well, I have no idea.
heatlesssun, I definitely see where you are coming from.
Yes, all mega-tech-corps seem to do this now, it's just that when they say they are going to do something, they actually do it.
Microsoft tends to back-track or overly quickly EOL products and software, more so than should be necessary; again this is why people are becoming weary of them.
Hopefully they actually stick to what they say they are going to do, but many of us won't be holding our breaths.