Why is my loop so bad?

[JayJapanB]

Old photo, now just running distilled water + liquid utopia. Also, flipped the ap181's to the top of the rad.

Pump is a d5 vario on 4 and the 180mm fans are on 600rpm.

Cpu is 53 deg idle, 80deg temps in prime95 small fft running a 1.33 vcore.

Gpu is a gtx670: 36deg idle, 70deg load.

Not enough rad?
Clogged EK block?(might check soon)
Too many blocks?
Expecting too much from x58? (used a 950 and a 920)

 

[Crispy002]

Mounting the res sideways is going to make it noisy unless it's all the way filled. It also might be generating bubbles which could be pumped through the loop and collect in the radiator. Air in the rad is never a good thing! Hard to tell how the pump is wired, but run it off the PSU directly instead of using a mobo fan header if you're doing that.

 

[JayJapanB]

Mounting the res sideways is going to make it noisy unless it's all the way filled. It also might be generating bubbles which could be pumped through the loop and collect in the radiator. Air in the rad is never a good thing! Hard to tell how the pump is wired, but run it off the PSU directly instead of using a mobo fan header if you're doing that.

The pump is running molex with the speed monitor on the cpu header (check the boss cable management on the right side of the mobo )
Don't think there would be a motherboard out that could power a d5.

Air entering shouldn't really be an issue after bleeding from what I have observed. The intake on the res is at the top and the outtake to the pump is at the bottom.
I could be wrong though.
I'll continue to check for bubbles. Not sure what you can do if they are stuck in the rad though.

Thanks for your input.

 

[baldrik]

70c on a 670 sounds like a bad mount or you've got shit stuck in your loop.

 

[Crispy002]

I'll continue to check for bubbles. Not sure what you can do if they are stuck in the rad though.

Thanks for your input.

Preferably while the pump is running, tilt your case forwards and side to side by 45 degrees or so. Don't tilt it backwards or your pump will starve in that res setup. If there's air trapped in the radiator you'll hear the bubbles escaping, repeat until no bubbles come out. You should be okay if your water appears completely clear and bubble free, a flashlight behind the tubing is a good way to check for small bubbles.

Baldrik makes a good point too. Depending on how long you ran that white coolant goo, you might have some buildup in the CPU block restricting flow.

 

[LigTasm]

Lots and lots of right angles, are you sure you got all the air out? Also, a single 280 might not be enough for CPU, GPU, and chipset. X58 runs hot.

 

[thesecond]

I think you need more rad area, and/or with better fans. Big fans don't have great static pressure. Since you're limited with 180mm's on that 360 rad, you might want to look at getting another, maybe single 120mm rad with some high static pressure fans like scythes on it.

 

[baldrik]

If that's a 180x2 rad, I think he should have plenty of rad surface area. 180x180x2=64800mm^2, whereas 120x120x4=57600mm^2.

 

[jojo69]

EK block

I had to clean my HF "supreme" recently, totally clogged with failed plating shreds.

never again EK

 

[thesecond]

If that's a 180x2 rad, I think he should have plenty of rad surface area. 180x180x2=64800mm^2, whereas 120x120x4=57600mm^2.

But its lots of rad area with low static pressure fans. There simply isnt enough air flow making it through the fins to cool it.

If it had 120mm high static pressure fans, it would be getting a lot more airflow through those fins.

its more of an airflow issue than a surface area issue. Large fans do not provide enough static pressure to push/pull air through rads. So while its nice in theory to have that extra surface area, it really isn't going to very good use.

 

[baldrik]

But its lots of rad area with low static pressure fans. There simply isnt enough air flow making it through the fins to cool it.

If it had 120mm high static pressure fans, it would be getting a lot more airflow through those fins.

its more of an airflow issue than a surface area issue. Large fans do not provide enough static pressure to push/pull air through rads. So while its nice in theory to have that extra surface area, it really isn't going to very good use.

Yeah, and he's also only rolling with them at 600rpm too. Still, temps on the GPU should be a hell of a lot better. In the system in my sig, my 6950 tops out at 46c. I'm running some cheap Xigmatek fans @ ~1000rpm on the 240 and one 120 and a scythe 12mm fan @1200 rpm on the other 120.

 

[baldrik]

EK block

I had to clean my HF "supreme" recently, totally clogged with failed plating shreds.

never again EK

There's this possibility too. Only way to check is to rip apart those blocks.

 

[JayJapanB]

Just wanted to say thanks for all your input.
I don't have a lot of time this weekend to work on it but I'll give an update when(if) I've made some progress.
If anyone has any other ideas feel free to chime in.

Also, from my experience with the substance(Ice Dragon), the white coolant doesn't seem to clog.
It can dry up if spread thin however it seems to be really water soluble and the cpu block fins haven't looked clogged. It's the only easy thing to check.

Edit:

EK block

I had to clean my HF "supreme" recently, totally clogged with failed plating shreds.

never again EK

Recent block? I thought they had fixed their Nickle issues then I saw a real messed up 7970 block in some thread.
I am really having concerns now and not many/any other blocks will fit a windforce 680pcb due to the power connectors.

 

[jojo69]

this one is almost 2 years old

I cleaned it up and am running it, but I am pissed

 

[Onemoar]

um call me crazy but I don't think milk is a very good coolant ...

 

[Tsumi]

Are your tubing and reservoir warm to the touch? If so, it's the 600 RPM fans not pushing enough air.

 

[JayJapanB]

this one is almost 2 years old

I cleaned it up and am running it, but I am pissed

Missing picture or am I missing understanding?

um call me crazy but I don't think milk is a very good coolant ...

Makes good cheese sticks though.

Are your tubing and reservoir warm to the touch? If so, it's the 600 RPM fans not pushing enough air.

Yes, however there isn't a huge change in temperature when I turn them up. They get real noisy though. I'm a silence freak. I used to run my pump on speed 1. Speed 4 doesn't seem to be making much difference though.

I was thinking of putting some fn-181s on the bottom of the rad and have the ap181s on top.

 

[staticlag]

Get 2 more 180 fans and do push/pull

 

[SonDa5]

Based on the number of blocks and bends in your loop I'm going to guess you have a flow/restriction problem.

 

[baldrik]

Based on the number of blocks and bends in your loop I'm going to guess you have a flow/restriction problem.

If it is a restriction problem, it's not from his bends and blocks. A D5 on 4 is more than enough for that little system; I'm running my D5 @ 3.5 with more restriction than he's got and that's plenty.

 

[cj3waker]

ambient temp and clearance under case? also what material is the case sitting on, looks like tile (which would be fine)

create a bigger air gap under the case for more airflow, and run your fans/pump at 100% and get back to us with updated temps (and ambient temp)

AP181s have a ton of static pressure

 

[BababooeyHTJ]

AP181s have a ton of static pressure

I don't know about that. The AP121 isn't really a very good rad fan.

I still don't think that is the issue though. That is a lot of rad space and he isn't running anything with a large heat load. There has got to be some gunk in the blocks. Is that the Ice dragon nano fluid or whatever? I've heard that shit leaves a film. I would pull the system and flush the shit out of the blocks and rad.

Does the tubing get warm when stressing the video card?

 

[Idef1x]

It has nothing to do with the fans or radiator. I have the 3x180 version in my rig with a [email protected], motherboard VRM and a MSI GTX 680 Lightning @1400 MHz core - so my wattage should be above that of the OP.

The GPU stays under 50c with the fans at low rpm and my D5 at "2". The CPU is about 65c at those settings. A D5 at "4" hould be just fine for the rig of the OP, in my opinion.

I have found, that the optimal way to orientate the fans are to let them pull air from the bottom. Somehow it just doesn't work as well for me if I let the push.

Or you have bad mounts.

 

[sok0]

Considering you are using one of the worst dual radiators in the slim version (or so it looks like in your pic), I would bet money that its your radiator + fans running way to slow. Try running prime 95 and furmark at same time at stock speeds and compare the temps to the overclocked speeds. I would also take a look at http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1720172 . My thermochills look to be 2-3 times thicker than the radiator in your picture.

 

[JayJapanB]

Get 2 more 180 fans and do push/pull

Thanks, I tried checking that. I have some spare 180mm fans but it doesn't fit. Sata ports get in the way.

If it is a restriction problem, it's not from his bends and blocks. A D5 on 4 is more than enough for that little system; I'm running my D5 @ 3.5 with more restriction than he's got and that's plenty.

I think you are right here. Changing pump speed doesn't alter the temps much.

ambient temp and clearance under case? also what material is the case sitting on, looks like tile (which would be fine)

create a bigger air gap under the case for more airflow, and run your fans/pump at 100% and get back to us with updated temps (and ambient temp)

AP181s have a ton of static pressure

Ambient temp: cool, ie <20'C
Case is on a table which is fairly clean. Right near the edge so the case has heaps of clearance.

It has nothing to do with the fans or radiator. I have the 3x180 version in my rig with a [email protected], motherboard VRM and a MSI GTX 680 Lightning @1400 MHz core - so my wattage should be above that of the OP.

The GPU stays under 50c with the fans at low rpm and my D5 at "2". The CPU is about 65c at those settings. A D5 at "4" hould be just fine for the rig of the OP, in my opinion.

I have found, that the optimal way to orientate the fans are to let them pull air from the bottom. Somehow it just doesn't work as well for me if I let the push.

Or you have bad mounts.

Firstly: Neat rig!

Secondly: I agree with putting the fans on pull. Temps are still average (though may have gone down 1-2'C) however the ambient case temp is less which may have been an issue given that I don't have an outtake fan.

Considering you are using one of the worst dual radiators in the slim version (or so it looks like in your pic), I would bet money that its your radiator + fans running way to slow. Try running prime 95 and furmark at same time at stock speeds and compare the temps to the overclocked speeds. I would also take a look at http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1720172 . My thermochills look to be 2-3 times thicker than the radiator in your picture.

That is maybe a little harsh on the rad. I accept that larger fans have less static pressure however due to the fin density I don't think the ap181s are too slow. On full rpm they still temps in the high 70's.
I don't like noise either. For what I want out of a computer, overclocks aren't worth 2000rpm fans. This rig will run with the fans at really low rpm and the d5 on 1 but I'm not super comfy with the temps and turning the pump up or the fans might max out at +-5'C difference.

Your thermochills are 60mm, the rad I'm on is 35mm

 

[jojo69]

hate to belabor the point

have you pulled the tops off those EK blocks yet?, was it this thread where I pointed out that my HF "supreme" was caked solid with failed plating flakes?

 

[JayJapanB]

hate to belabor the point

have you pulled the tops off those EK blocks yet?, was it this thread where I pointed out that my HF "supreme" was caked solid with failed plating flakes?

No, sorry, not yet. When I have the time its the first thing I'm going to do.
Been working lots and I have a party for my 21st this weekend and if I don't get it done before then I don't really want loose computer parts everywhere. I want to spend more time flushing the rad as well.

Don't worry though, I have not ignored your advice, it is high on my things to do list.

 

[Mr. K6]

The problem is your flow. Is the pump going to the reservoir first (big problem) or the radiator? Either way that isn't optimal. Secondly, there are tons of little things that added up are very restrictive - Supreme? Check. Right angle? Check. MOSFET blocks? Check. Reduce some of that and you'll see your temps increase dramatically.

I would drain the loop, clean all the blocks, and restructure the order (maybe mounting the pump below the PSU or something) so that it goes pump -> CPU -> mosfet -> GPU -> rad (lose the right angle, just use a gentle bend) -> reservoir -> pump. Also I'd lose the mosfet blocks entirely, they're functionally overkill.

EDIT: Just to show what I mean, here's my setup:

The worst bend I have is going into my GPU block. And this entire loop runs only on a MCP350/Laing DDC 3.x 12 watt and my temps are great.

 

[JayJapanB]

The problem is your flow. Is the pump going to the reservoir first (big problem) or the radiator? Either way that isn't optimal.

No the res goes to the pump. I did at least google "watercooling" before dropping 1k on parts. Pump to rad isnt 'optimal'? Need a little more clarification here.

Secondly, there are tons of little things that added up are very restrictive - Supreme? Check. Right angle? Check. MOSFET blocks? Check. Reduce some of that and you'll see your temps increase dramatically.

I have ditched the 'L' block, didn't make a difference either way. The I added blocks gradually and the chipset block didn't have any large effect on temps. I think things went down hill since my gpu block. (I will check soon the condition of the block)

I would drain the loop, clean all the blocks, and restructure the order (maybe mounting the pump below the PSU or something) so that it goes pump -> CPU -> mosfet -> GPU -> rad (lose the right angle, just use a gentle bend) -> reservoir -> pump. Also I'd lose the mosfet blocks entirely, they're functionally overkill.

I have found many reputable sources on the internet claim that component order doesn't matter(aside from res feeding to pump). Would you disagree with this?

The chipset blocks were added to decrease high ambient internal temperatures due to a lack of outtake fan. X58 with an nf200 chip lets off heat.

EDIT: Just to show what I mean, here's my setup:

The worst bend I have is going into my GPU block. And this entire loop runs only on a MCP350/Laing DDC 3.x 12 watt and my temps are great.

Have you previously had restriction due to bad ordering/fittings in the past to compare to?
There seems to be a lot more obvious variables between our rigs than restriction due to component placement. (smaller chip/different rads/fans/blocks)

 

[Mr. K6]

No the res goes to the pump. I did at least google "watercooling" before dropping 1k on parts. Pump to rad isnt 'optimal'? Need a little more clarification here.

Sorry if that came off as insulting, it wasn't meant to, but many times in people's excitement to assemble their gear they forget basic stuff (flow, didn't plug in PCI-E cables, yada yada). By not optimal, two things: 1) always have your pump pump from the lowest part of your case to the highest. That way gravity assists with loop flow. 2) Try not to start your loop going to the radiator as it's low restriction due to being massively parallel. When the water gets to your CPU block you'll have less pressure going in which can raise temps. If you look at my rig, that's why it goes straight from the pump -> CPU, then up to the radiator. I sacrifice a little help from gravity but it overall gives better temps.

I have ditched the 'L' block, didn't make a difference either way. The I added blocks gradually and the chipset block didn't have any large effect on temps. I think things went down hill since my gpu block. (I will check soon the condition of the block)

Full cover blocks are generally more restrictive than GPU-only. It could be that was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as flow reduction. That said, you may have to remove other components in the loop to remove restriction and get flow higher again. Like I said, the MOSFET block isn't essential and is very restrictive.

I have found many reputable sources on the internet claim that component order doesn't matter(aside from res feeding to pump). Would you disagree with this?

As long as you have good flow, it doesn't. When you don't, it does. As I stated, if you can get gravity to help, all the better. That, and I'd take the loop apart to check for clogging, gunk, etc.

The chipset blocks were added to decrease high ambient internal temperatures due to a lack of outtake fan. X58 with an nf200 chip lets off heat.

If you can put the original heatsinks on and just use a low-speed 120mm to cool them, it's something to think about.

Have you previously had restriction due to bad ordering/fittings in the past to compare to?
There seems to be a lot more obvious variables between our rigs than restriction due to component placement. (smaller chip/different rads/fans/blocks)

That's true. My point was to show some of the concepts that I mentioned in action, and that combined you can get a great flow with a low-power loop.

 

[LigTasm]

Have you tried running straight distilled water yet? It would help you notice if there was crap in the loop from the blocks or something.

 

[sok0]

Are you running both furmark and prime 95 at the same time to test this system? Since you are using 1 loop, this is how you have to test it. I would bet money at overclocked speeds, your 1 radiator cant cool both the cpu and gpu running 100% loads for a hour. Just my 2cents after watercooling for a long time.

Also, i have 2 dual thermochill radiators on a fan controller, if i turn both fans off on 1 radiator and run p95 and furmark, i can reach 80C . If i turn the other radiator on, im looking at 60C loaded. Res should always feed into the pump, thats about the only thing you have to worry about in loop order.

 

[verylostindeed]

Probably not enough rad, but temps seem high nonetheless. Do you have to use the mobo blocks? They're just adding restriction and are pretty much unnecessary.

 

[Reality]

sounds like the fans aren't really doing much if the rad is warm to the touch even with the fans cranked up

 

[Ozymandias]

How quickly does your loop hit those temperatures? I wonder if running without an exhaust fan is partly to blame. I know it's a FT02 case and heat rises, but I bet the interior gets pretty toasty and you might have some heatsoak.

 

[Nookie420]

it looks nice and seems like temps should be way better. your cpu and gpu are running really warm. A lot has already been covered. if your radiator is warm to the touch heat is not be dissipated good enough. My radiator doesn't feel warm what so ever, I don't have my gpu watercooled but my cpu and board is. My idle temps are under 30c on both my cpu watercooled and 680 classified on air.

I have a d5 Vario pump, I run it on 4 because its frequency is quietest for me. I'd ditch that white liquid for distilled water and a kill coil. Run white tubing if you want it to be white like I did.

Even if your radiator is a bit on the small side for your heat load, more airflow will compensate to a point yah know.

pics of my setup http://www.modsrigs.com/detail.aspx?buildid=30906

 

[JayJapanB]

EK nickel block is fucked,

I'll post pics when I can be bothered

Edit: Don't think the build up is from the block itself.

 

[aphasia]

EK nickel block is fucked,

I'll post pics when I can be bothered

sucks that your EK GPU block has flaked. at least you found the main source of the problem. if you can send back your EK block (good luck with that) and get a replacement (straight copper preferred) or refund, great. if you can't, could always scrub the inside (remove bulk of nickel plating) and reuse. you'll need to thoroughly flush the loop to get rid of nickel tho, extra care with pump.

i would ask that you post lots of pics of the EK block and state of loop. think it's important to have as much evidence as possible on EK's shithouse plating process and give the community a heads-up.

i've got 2 EK blocks (chipset & GPU) in my loop so not looking forward to the day when i need to strip down mine.

finally, was your GPU block plated in the old process or the newer 'EN'?

 

[Jorona]

See if RRT will replate it for you. They only accept fucked EK blocks, so hopefully yours is fucked enough.

 

[Mr. K6]

EK nickel block is fucked,

I'll post pics when I can be bothered

Wow, still? I will never buy another EK block.