Why is Apple missing the midrange?

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supergper said:
I think its funny cause most you guys are crying about being able to control your computer and do what you want to do with it. Apple has never allowed for easy expansion so why would they start now? Part of what make Macs work so reliably is this very fact. Some are crying about "...but I can do this in windows..." well, be my guest, go do it in windows and run that sorry OS...have fun with your viruses and spyware. No skin off my nose :D
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PowerMacs have always been expandable. As are Mac Pros.

So was the Cube.

It's not as if people are asking Apple to include overclocking tools and complete freedom to change around the machine... All we want is the ability to use our own monitor on a Mac that costs less than $2500 and still be able to swap video and hard drives.
 
Rocketpig said:
PowerMacs have always been expandable. As are Mac Pros.

So was the Cube.

It's not as if people are asking Apple to include overclocking tools and complete freedom to change around the machine... All we want is the ability to use our own monitor on a Mac that costs less than $2500 and still be able to swap video and hard drives.
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yeah, expandable with the small (very small infact) list of approved devices...I don't consider that expandable. Also, you just listed the top machines (well, not the cube) Apple makes...so I ask again, why would they start now with a "mid-ranged" computer thats just a tower? IMO, you guys in this thread are by far the minority in this case. Using a forum that's very heavily into modding and bulding your own machines as your basis for an Apple product is assinine. Apple's target audience are the people that like to be able to turn on the machine and just have it work, no need to upgrade or load drivers, or configure this or that. I doubt you'll see this mid-range tower anytime soon (atleast not under Jobs)
 
i still have my g4 imac. One of the first ones with a 1x superdrive. It still runs and does everything it needs. Mind you all the upgrades in software now are bloated(like itunes) and it takes 10 secs to load between aps but it still runs. I still use it to do online banking,torrent pr0n from unsavory places, and use it store photos and web browse.

Id love a midrange mac but alas APPLE in general is akin to euro cars that you buy, use and appreciate. Thats it. When its passed its usefullness its a vintage piece collectors item. Each with its own timeless style just like porsche and rolls royce. Just image the horror of someone ricing out a mac with two bit hardware manufacturers. On a pc it can be done very well but there are alot of downfalls. Apple wants to maintain its image but not letting outsiders touch it, simple as that.
 
supergper said:
yeah, expandable with the small (very small infact) list of approved devices...I don't consider that expandable. Also, you just listed the top machines (well, not the cube) Apple makes...so I ask again, why would they start now with a "mid-ranged" computer thats just a tower? IMO, you guys in this thread are by far the minority in this case. Using a forum that's very heavily into modding and bulding your own machines as your basis for an Apple product is assinine. Apple's target audience are the people that like to be able to turn on the machine and just have it work, no need to upgrade or load drivers, or configure this or that. I doubt you'll see this mid-range tower anytime soon (atleast not under Jobs)
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Things are different now. With the ability to run XP on a Mac, people who never considered a Mac before (people into building their own machines) are now tempted by the ability to run dual OSes on a slick-looking machine.

Apple is stupid if they don't take advantage of this newly found market opportunity. I know at least two people (excluding myself) who would consider buying this machine instead of building their own rig next time they upgrade.
 
Rocketpig said:
Things are different now. With the ability to run XP on a Mac, people who never considered a Mac before (people into building their own machines) are now tempted by the ability to run dual OSes on a slick-looking machine.

Apple is stupid if they don't take advantage of this newly found market opportunity. I know at least two people (excluding myself) who would consider buying this machine instead of building their own rig next time they upgrade.
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Apple's not stupid for passing this up, Apple wants to remain an industry standard of stability. They may as well sell their OS to Dell and allow Dell to start putting it on their machines as well, same thing...Apple wants to know what THEIR OS is going on (not OSx86, that's a different story all together) and have control of the compnents in that machine. This way there's not the unknown of what people will be adding to the machine. Again, modders are not Apple's market, that's like saying Apple should start catering to the gamers cause thats a huge market...it is, but it's not Apple's market niche.
 
supergper said:
Apple's not stupid for passing this up, Apple wants to remain an industry standard of stability. They may as well sell their OS to Dell and allow Dell to start putting it on their machines as well, same thing...Apple wants to know what THEIR OS is going on (not OSx86, that's a different story all together) and have control of the compnents in that machine. This way there's not the unknown of what people will be adding to the machine. Again, modders are not Apple's market, that's like saying Apple should start catering to the gamers cause thats a huge market...it is, but it's not Apple's market niche.
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Come on. If the ability to add/remove hard drives and swap vid cards on the Mac Pro don't effect stability, those same mods put into a cheaper consumer tower won't either.
 
Um, what? Macs have always been expanable. Even the Performas back in the day were expandable to a degree.

Being able to stick an extra SATA controller card in your Mac won't somehow make it less stable.
 
Black Morty Rackham said:
Um, what? Macs have always been expanable. Even the Performas back in the day were expandable to a degree.

Being able to stick an extra SATA controller card in your Mac won't somehow make it less stable.
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According to supergper it does. Hell, according to him being able to use a different moniter/keyboard does as well. :rolleyes:
 
supergper said:
I think its funny cause most you guys are crying about being able to control your computer and do what you want to do with it. Apple has never allowed for easy expansion so why would they start now? Part of what make Macs work so reliably is this very fact. Some are crying about "...but I can do this in windows..." well, be my guest, go do it in windows and run that sorry OS...have fun with your viruses and spyware. No skin off my nose :D
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The Mac pro/ Powermacs completely ruin your entire arguement, as they offer exactly this kind of expandability, and have for awhile. We simply want that in the mid range, and theres nothing wrong with wanting it. And no, since you'd be adding Apple approved devices, it wouldnt be any less stable.

You're the kind of person that makes me not want to get a mac of any sort because you act like such a damn Apple drone. Defending every move, even the ones that do not make sense.
 
just curious, if i were to upgrade what would the official list of hardware for apple? i prolly wouldnt go get unapproved gear just like i dont use beta stuff for my PC.

id like to upgrade things i want at a lower cost than oem mac stuff. Did u guys see what they wanna charge for an extra stick of ram. I wish OCZ was approved so i could get 2gb for like $150 ddr2. Id also want a nicer vid card and not that x1600, more like an x1800 or 7900gt

basically this is what i would like to see in a midrange mac

ability to have 3 drives
my own gaming gpu
ram of my choice
my own monitor

id like to have that for less than 1500. if they have to skimp on ram/video and a small oem hd fine, but let me put that in it. It shouldnt be that hard to approve stuff from nv or ati only two gpu manufacturers and hds already work with macs. Dvi is already an established platform on both sides so its easy.
 
Macs use off-the-shelf RAM. Any of it will work if you know what config to buy for your rig.

Though I'm not sure about vid cards... Do you still have to flash the BIOS to use an aftermarket card (unless you buy the Mac version, of course)?
 
Do you still have to flash the BIOS to use an aftermarket card (unless you buy the Mac version, of course)?
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Yes.


Id also want a nicer vid card and not that x1600, more like an x1800 or 7900gt
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The only Macs that have X1600s are the iMacs and the Macbook Pros. The GPU is integrated onto the motherboard for space reasons. A PCI-e card just wouldn't fit.
 
Like the above poster said, you guys are complaining that macs are customizable and that you can do this and that on a white box pc for so much less. Well if you want to bring that up, then stick to it and use winblows. I bought a iBook last year before school started and it has made my computer experience so much more enjoyable. It still amazes me today the innovation and things winblows user are missing out on. Also quit complaining about the iMacs... they are a beautiful piece of work, my freind from just bought one for his college dorm the 20" model and its so nice.
 
I3roknI3ottle said:
Like the above poster said, you guys are complaining that macs are customizable and that you can do this and that on a white box pc for so much less. Well if you want to bring that up, then stick to it and use winblows. I bought a iBook last year before school started and it has made my computer experience so much more enjoyable. It still amazes me today the innovation and things winblows user are missing out on. Also quit complaining about the iMacs... they are a beautiful piece of work, my freind from just bought one for his college dorm the 20" model and its so nice.
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1: The iBook is great. I should know; I have one myself.
2: The iMac is also great.
3: However, the iMac is not for everyone. I need more RAM expandibility than the iMac has, and a better GPU is also necessary.
4: I can't spend three thousand dollars on a Mac Pro.
5: I can and would spend ~$1500 on a just plain Mac with replacable video card, more RAM slots and a Core 2 Duo
 
Should we start a poll to see just how large the "minority" is that would be interested in a system like this? Suggestions on possible answers?

Would you buy a mid-range Mac (tower) system?
-No: the iMac is powerful/expandable enough.
-No: the Mac Pro provides the necessary expandability.
-Yes: increased expandability and specs, moderate price.
 
I3roknI3ottle said:
Like the above poster said, you guys are complaining that macs are customizable and that you can do this and that on a white box pc for so much less. Well if you want to bring that up, then stick to it and use winblows. I bought a iBook last year before school started and it has made my computer experience so much more enjoyable. It still amazes me today the innovation and things winblows user are missing out on. Also quit complaining about the iMacs... they are a beautiful piece of work, my freind from just bought one for his college dorm the 20" model and its so nice.
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Your opinion was invalidated the moment you used a term as stupid as "winblows". Act like something less of an idiot here and we might care what you think.
 
pixelbaker said:
Should we start a poll to see just how large the "minority" is that would be interested in a system like this? Suggestions on possible answers?

Would you buy a mid-range Mac (tower) system?
-No: the iMac is powerful/expandable enough.
-No: the Mac Pro provides the necessary expandability.
-Yes: increased expandability and specs, moderate price.
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Obvious yes here. This whole "if Apple doesnt do it, you dont need it" crap bugs the living hell out of me. I cant believe people are so stupid.
 
Tutelary said:
Obvious yes here. This whole "if Apple doesnt do it, you dont need it" crap bugs the living hell out of me. I cant believe people are so stupid.
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I agree, I'm actually suprised by the comments these people are making. .
 
Who remembers the LCIII? At the time a great bang for your buck midrange Mac with no monitor. I'd love to see something in the spirit of that, with a PCI-E x16 slot for upgradable graphics in a slim tower design.
 
supergper said:
Some are crying about "...but I can do this in windows..." well, be my guest, go do it in windows and run that sorry OS...have fun with your viruses and spyware. No skin off my nose :D
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I like spyware....... It keeps me on my toes..... :rolleyes: ;) :p
 
Tutelary said:
The Mac pro/ Powermacs completely ruin your entire arguement, as they offer exactly this kind of expandability, and have for awhile. We simply want that in the mid range, and theres nothing wrong with wanting it. And no, since you'd be adding Apple approved devices, it wouldnt be any less stable.

You're the kind of person that makes me not want to get a mac of any sort because you act like such a damn Apple drone. Defending every move, even the ones that do not make sense.
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If you'd actually read my above statements I already covered this ground, the VERY small list of approved devices for macs is, IMO, not considered "expandable"...it's merely a few different options (notice I qualified that with IN MY OPINION) :D. If you just want to be able to pick and choose from the four available GPUs, a few RAID cards, etc then so be it...and as I said earlier as well, a mid-range tower would be cool and I can deffinitely see a market for it, but that market is not nearly as large as you guys are making it out to be, and it's not in Apple's interest (at this point) to cater to that market. There are three different sides in this thread, those that think the mid-range will never happen, those that want the mid-range with the option to add an aproved mac device, and those that want a mid-range with the ability to expand it like you do a windows box (the latter will never happen, like I said before...atleast under Jobs it won't).

Apple Drone???? Keep dreaming, I'm just point out the reality of the situation. I love the Mac product, but there are MANY things I can't stand about the company. I use to be 100% windows, then I started to learn there are much better alternatives out there. Now I'll only run windows out of necessity, and it'll be on my Macintel :p So Apple Drone, not even close, but an Apple Fan...sure, why not ;)
 
supergper said:
Apple Drone???? Keep dreaming, I'm just point out the reality of the situation. I love the Mac product, but there are MANY things I can't stand about the company. I use to be 100% windows, then I started to learn there are much better alternatives out there. Now I'll only run windows out of necessity, and it'll be on my Macintel :p So Apple Drone, not even close, but an Apple Fan...sure, why not ;)
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It looked like you were going to name those "many things"...but then you just drifted back to talking about windows again :confused:
 
supergper said:
I can deffinitely see a market for it, but that market is not nearly as large as you guys are making it out to be
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look at the number of people in this thread calling for it vs. the number of people saying it isnt needed...
 
Tutelary said:
look at the number of people in this thread calling for it vs. the number of people saying it isnt needed...
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and look at the nature of this forum...(as I already said earlier)


go post this same stuff on Apple's forums or whatever and you'll get a much better feeling for the market. This is THE only place I've ever heard people crying for this...
 
supergper said:
and look at the nature of this forum...(as I already said earlier)


go post this same stuff on Apple's forums or whatever and you'll get a much better feeling for the market. This is THE only place I've ever heard people crying for this...
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WE ARE THE NEW TARGET AUDIENCE. Wake Up! My experience with most mac forums is that they are filled with people who wouldnt know HOW to upgrade anything, so of course they aren't going to ask for the option to do so.

Even having to argue such a simple concept is irritating to the point that if this is how the mac community is in general, I'll just stick to windows.
 
Tutelary said:
WE ARE THE NEW TARGET AUDIENCE. Wake Up! My experience with most mac forums is that they are filled with people who wouldnt know HOW to upgrade anything, so of course they aren't going to ask for the option to do so.

Even having to argue such a simple concept is irritating to the point that if this is how the mac community is in general, I'll just stick to windows.
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Tutelary - You gotta understand that you're preaching to the choir here. Of course all of us that are real [H]'ers have built a PC, thus we have a higher demand for value than the traditional Apple customer.

Apple customers could be anyone from your disheveled noobie Windows user, to loyal customers. They typically don't buy Apple for value, but more for the ideology or style. They are hardly going to Apple first looking for the "best value"--I mean, just look back at my 1.6Ghz G5 comment a page or two back. That machine alone is an example of terrible value per $ spent.
 
supergper said:
go post this same stuff on Apple's forums or whatever and you'll get a much better feeling for the market.
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Swapping out a bunch of tech geeks for a bunch of Apple apologists won't tell us anything about target markets.
 
Tutelary said:
WE ARE THE NEW TARGET AUDIENCE. Wake Up! My experience with most mac forums is that they are filled with people who wouldnt know HOW to upgrade anything, so of course they aren't going to ask for the option to do so.

Even having to argue such a simple concept is irritating to the point that if this is how the mac community is in general, I'll just stick to windows.
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that's just it, you're not the target audience...you want to be with this dream machine, but in reality you're not.

I'm finished with this thread...it's starting to sound like a broken record in here.
 
supergper said:
that's just it, you're not the target audience...you want to be with this dream machine, but in reality you're not.

I'm finished with this thread...it's starting to sound like a broken record in here.
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..and thats why Apple is "enjoying" a 2% share in the US, and 3.x% in the WORLD.
 
supergper said:
that's just it, you're not the target audience...you want to be with this dream machine, but in reality you're not.

I'm finished with this thread...it's starting to sound like a broken record in here.
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You're right, Apple's current target audience are the same people that they always were which is why, like Tutelary pointed out, Apple maintains a 3.x% worldwide market share. Have you ever stopped to think why Apple's marketshare has shrunk so much?

Honestly now. I grew up on Macs, I love Macs but I'm no Apple apologist. If Apple wants to grow their marketshare then they have to open their OS up alittle to allow thrid parties to write drivers for their hardware and they need to actually make a god damn midrange system that appeals to the average "windoze" ( :rolleyes: ) crowd. This doesn't mean it has to cost as much as Dell's cheapest pile of crap; it means Apple needs to have a system that has both performance and the option to let people add their own moniter and things.

The Mac Mini is not it. The iMac is not it. We don't need another damn all in one system.

Like I said, we need another Cube but atleast this time Apple has the tech and the know how to finally pull it off.
 
Wow this discussion got really nasty really quick. While I do see there is a small gap between the imac and mac pro in price and such, and it would always be cool if apple introduced new systems, I honestly dont see it happening. But who knows more power to apple if they do, more systems means more options :D
 
Jeez guys can't we have a relevant discussion without the constant ribbing and poking?


Here's the deal, and it's been said before, hundreds of times...


*WE* (as in people who've come to [H]) are upgraders, modders, tweakers, overclockers, and hackers (in the hardware sense).

We represent one small corner of the computing universe. Think of us as the solar system, sitting off to the side of the entire milky way.

So while Apple's overall marketshare (that be edu, commercial, home and science) may be some small number between 3 and 5%, *WE* end up being about 2% of THAT.
(my numbers are probably off, but you get the point)

As far as apple is concerned, they *ARE* hitting the midrange, with the Macbook, mac mini, and iMacs.
They are inexpensive enough to populate desks, upgradeable enough to last a few years, and powerful enough to get work done.

Are they for everyone? No. Are they for people like us? More than likely, NOT, for the reasons that lots of us have pointed out in this thread.

I'd love something slightly more upgradeable than my mac mini, but it's not all that big a deal to me. (I use my computers as tools, and they get their job done as it is...)
 
The way i see it:
There are solutions to everything, you just have to get used to them.
Im a windows guy...i hope to be a Mac OSX guy once the new macbookpro's show up with merom, and ive played with macosx for some time now having a g/f with a powerbook G4 ( and a tower before that which some of you are whining about). I also know what its like to use two big screens and need that much space...i really do...being an engineer and doing some coding and all that stuff (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img07440ag.jpg used to be my rig...since changed...new speakers, new desk, new keyboard, down to one monitor...no 700m anymore). These things did everything i needed...multi screens, tons of HD space (and RAID), my portable lappy for classes and stuff.

And i have or am getting rid of most of it.

Why would i discard such a beauty that i saved and sweated for? Heres the way i see it.
After using my g/f's powerbook with 10.4.XX on it and expose for some time now on her 15in screen...i dont find myself needing a second monitor. And with 10.5 and spaces around the corner...i see the need even less.
Lets say i have a brand new macbookpro, 2gigs ram, 100 gig hd, x1600 with 256 vram.
What needs are not filled?

Ok, say you need more screen space...tack on a 30in LCD...done...if you *need* more than that...you need a mac pro.

Ok, say you need more hard drive space (which i do), get a portable hard drive...need raid reliability?...buy a NAS or build one....need something more robust?...build or buy a fileserver....yes use windows or linux i dont care...just because your platform of choice is OSX doesnt mean that your incapable of using windows/*nix...really really really need all that storage on your computer at all times for everything you do?...you need a mac pro.

Ok, say you want more gaming ability...buy an xbox360...still want your FPS games ultra fast...well then u should be going PC anyway so give up and go home or turn that fileserver into a gaming/fileserver box like mine currently is (well...sorta..i ditched my x800xt because i dont need it cause i dont play games anymore...but you could throw in one hell of a vid card in here and rock out with your cock out). The Mac Pro is not a gaming FPS machine so im not even going to go there.

All this discussion comes down to one point...what do you really need to get the job done, not what do you want but doesnt exist so you can complain about it. Theres a lot a ways to accomplish what you need relatively cheaply before you get to the mac pro level. As far as the amount of ram goes, thats the only real holding point that i see, but 2Gigs really accomplishs what you need to relatively well (my g/f should know, she creates illustrations in photoshop all the time, full page spreads for childrens books / magazines...you name it...textures galore with hundreds of layers...everything works fine and dandy).
 
A $1200-$1700 monitorless PC from Apple would sell well, I think.
 
I'm sure it's been discussed already, but the iMac is Apple's Midrange system..

Sure it's not a monitorless expandable tower, but that's what the iMac is for.

I'd be fairly interested if Apple came out with such a computer, but their laptops do me just fine.
 
My guess is that apple figures that people buy them for two reasons: ease of use or for higher end media creation stuff. The ease of use people obviously either 1. only need an "imac" or 2. have cash to blow so go with a "mac pro" with the power users going for the mac pro. Apple has never been a value oriented company and I have noticed that they frequently tend to keep some features in their higher $ offerings to "force" customers to spend more (many computer vendors and actually many entirely different industries use this method too). I'm sure the boys are marketing have graphs showing the benefits and losses of doing this and decided they would come out on top if they either hold the release of a midrange offering or never release one at all.

another apple example: want a laptop with a screen larger then a measly 13.3 inches under 1500? TOO BAD! Now of course this means that anyone wanting a 15.4 or 17 inch laptop (maybe they have bad eyes, maybe they want a DTR, maybe they like watching video?) have to get a macbook pro (or one of the hundreds of PC offerings, but remember these people want an apple!) Apple knows they will pay for one so they can do that.
 
Well, if Apple made a reasonably priced machine that came sans monitor, I'd have probably bought that instead of my current home-built desktop.
 
Tutelary said:
The Mac pro/ Powermacs completely ruin your entire arguement, as they offer exactly this kind of expandability, and have for awhile. We simply want that in the mid range, and theres nothing wrong with wanting it. And no, since you'd be adding Apple approved devices, it wouldnt be any less stable.

You're the kind of person that makes me not want to get a mac of any sort because you act like such a damn Apple drone. Defending every move, even the ones that do not make sense.
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And just to back this up, a few years ago Apple was offering G4 PowerMacs starting around $1500-1600 or so, so they definately *can* offer a lower-priced system. However,I think the entry-level PowerMac was accounting for quite a few sales, but they weren't making as much money off of it (obviously), so the next major revision of the time boosted the price back to around $2000.
 
supergper said:
well, be my guest, go do it in windows and run that sorry OS...have fun with your viruses and spyware. No skin off my nose :D
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While Windows XP has it's major faults, look at the vast array of hardware it supports.

Not only that, but in the past 4-5 years, I've had one Virus. And only because I wasn't being careful. And I can guarantee my current system is likely running faster and more stable under Windows XP, than your current Mac system is.

That type of arguement "OS X doesn't suffer from viruses and spyware", is exactly the type of attitude that is going to cause major problems with OS X in the future.
 
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