why does it have to be so difficult

A

anferne85

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Feb 15, 2011
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Just imagine if you could buy off the shelf a cool, quiet, compact HTPC, preconfigured with media centre and all the common plugins. It would be ready to stream say 100 of the most common channels like those found on HULU. It would have easy to use recording features, it would be easy to switch to TV, movies, radio. everything would be at your fingertips - just add a screen and speakers.

Unfortunatly its not that easy to setup a HTPC. I class myself as VERY computer literate and all this jargon, options amd configuring is too much for me.

When is someone going to design a ready to go HTPC with all the software features that the enthusiasists use all in one simple interface ? Why hasnt someone done this already?

Im sure moderatly tech savvy mums and dads (the average viewer) is screming out for low runnign cost entertainment at your fingertips.. if only it wasnt all so complicated!

Yes there are Boxxee box (if thats what its called) but i dont think it really compared to what an enthusiast htpc can do.

Does anyone see a gap in the market here?
 
It would be cost prohibitive. You can't make a low cost MC machine to do all you describe above. The support calls would decimate your profit margin.
 
From what research i have done it seems like a cheapish box $500-$700 with the right software will do everything mentioned if it had the right software and configured properly.

tech support calls - i totally agree. There would be alot of things that just stop working and need to be reconfigured. And thats part of the problem of HTPC being too complex for the average user.
 
anferne85 said:
From what research i have done it seems like a cheapish box $500-$700 with the right software will do everything mentioned if it had the right software and configured properly.

tech support calls - i totally agree. There would be alot of things that just stop working and need to be reconfigured. And thats part of the problem of HTPC being too complex for the average user.
Click to expand...

Wouldnt even take 500.. Under 4 with current hardware.
 
the hardware isn't even the beginning. The hardware is the easiest part, its the software thats the killer. Even experienced computer users can't get it right the first time, let alone the kind of people who buy off-the-shelf systems. Aside from the complexity of configuring the software within the current OS frameworks, a major sticking point is DRM. Without DRM somebody could probably create a custom linux version with everything built right in tailored to a specific hardware configuration. Unfortunately, DRM is, by its very nature, not open source, so only those who pay for the licenses get to play (AKA Microsoft) which rules out BD playback and CableCard, and CableCard doesn't have On Demand and all the other stuff that most people are used to. And you'd HAVE to have CableCard because the "average" consumers that would pay 600+ (probably more like $800 with the software suite) for an HTPC would be the ones who want to watch cable on it.

I think the biggest problem of all, though, is that the average consumer is borderline retarded compared to most of us (with regard to computers). They don't even know HTPC's exist, and even if they did they would be too stupid or lazy to figure out even the most basic system. Hell, I've seen plenty of people too stupid to figure out the default cableco box, let alone something they'd have to plug in themselves. I agree, there software options out there leave a LOT to be desired, but thats because none of the big players are putting too much effort into them as a result of the market being too small. (I will concede the notion that maybe if somebody put out decent, easy software that perhaps the market would grow)
 
anferne85 said:
Just imagine if you could buy off the shelf a cool, quiet, compact HTPC, preconfigured with media centre and all the common plugins. It would be ready to stream say 100 of the most common channels like those found on HULU. It would have easy to use recording features, it would be easy to switch to TV, movies, radio. everything would be at your fingertips - just add a screen and speakers.

Unfortunatly its not that easy to setup a HTPC. I class myself as VERY computer literate and all this jargon, options amd configuring is too much for me.

When is someone going to design a ready to go HTPC with all the software features that the enthusiasists use all in one simple interface ? Why hasnt someone done this already?

Im sure moderatly tech savvy mums and dads (the average viewer) is screming out for low runnign cost entertainment at your fingertips.. if only it wasnt all so complicated!

Yes there are Boxxee box (if thats what its called) but i dont think it really compared to what an enthusiast htpc can do.

Does anyone see a gap in the market here?
Click to expand...


It's simple.

What you are asking for is a $1000 machine, if not possibly more. Not going to be much of a market for something like that when the rest of the competition is < $200. This is no different than PC gaming. You have your average consumer, for HTPC, this would be your regular DVR subscriber; for PC gaming, this would be your "I use whatever computer I have available to play my favorite game". Basically, the stereo typical average user, the majority of the customer base. An above average consumer, for HTPC, would be your uVerse/Upgraded Tivo/Boxee/etc. user; for PC gaming, it would be the type of person that buys a high end computer at Best Buy or something so he can play the latest games. Basically, it's the type of person that is looking for a little more than what the average person would be happy with. Then you have the enthusiast market. They typically stray from the store bought pre-configured options because they want as much control/features as possible. Some may be more extreme than others, but basically, it's a hobby of some sorts for them. For HTPC and PC gaming, it's *usually* the type of people that build their own systems. The type that wants "the best" their money (However much they can afford) could buy, the same type of people you find here...

To finish with the HTPC/PC gaming analogy, if you happen to be an "enthusiast" and you want "the best" without doing it yourself, there is always someone willing to take advantage of that (lol, gotta love capitalism ;)).

For PC gaming, Alienware has been making custom/high end PC's for years. Possibly even a decade by now... I feel like they have been around forever now...

For HTPC, check out http://www.cannonpc.com/ They might have exactly what you are looking for.



EDIT: Forgot to mention, even though you might be able to purchase the parts for $400/$500/$600/Whatever, people don't work for free. I simply pulled $1000 out of my ass to take into account an extra couple of hundred for overhead.
 
xFROSTx said:
It's simple.

What you are asking for is a $1000 machine, if not possibly more. Not going to be much of a market for something like that when the rest of the competition is < $200. This is no different than PC gaming. You have your average consumer, for HTPC, this would be your regular DVR subscriber; for PC gaming, this would be your "I use whatever computer I have available to play my favorite game". Basically, the stereo typical average user, the majority of the customer base. An above average consumer, for HTPC, would be your uVerse/Upgraded Tivo/Boxee/etc. user; for PC gaming, it would be the type of person that buys a high end computer at Best Buy or something so he can play the latest games. Basically, it's the type of person that is looking for a little more than what the average person would be happy with. Then you have the enthusiast market. They typically stray from the store bought pre-configured options because they want as much control/features as possible. Some may be more extreme than others, but basically, it's a hobby of some sorts for them. For HTPC and PC gaming, it's *usually* the type of people that build their own systems. The type that wants "the best" their money (However much they can afford) could buy, the same type of people you find here...

To finish with the HTPC/PC gaming analogy, if you happen to be an "enthusiast" and you want "the best" without doing it yourself, there is always someone willing to take advantage of that (lol, gotta love capitalism ;)).

For PC gaming, Alienware has been making custom/high end PC's for years. Possibly even a decade by now... I feel like they have been around forever now...

For HTPC, check out http://www.cannonpc.com/ They might have exactly what you are looking for.



EDIT: Forgot to mention, even though you might be able to purchase the parts for $400/$500/$600/Whatever, people don't work for free. I simply pulled $1000 out of my ass to take into account an extra couple of hundred for overhead.
Click to expand...
I actually view it more along the lines of consoles vs PC gamers. People with the standard DVR = console gamers, people with HTPC = pro PC gamers. The middle ground would be "PC gamers who use consumer (read: not enthusiast) level PC's to play" and their needs may not quite be met by the Roku's, Boxee's, etc of the world. Unfortunately its true, the costs are just too high. People might see a kick-ass HTPC and want it, but when they see 800$+ they'll decide that a $100 Roku is "good enough"
 
Activate: AMD said:
I actually view it more along the lines of consoles vs PC gamers. People with the standard DVR = console gamers, people with HTPC = pro PC gamers. The middle ground would be "PC gamers who use consumer (read: not enthusiast) level PC's to play" and their needs may not quite be met by the Roku's, Boxee's, etc of the world. Unfortunately its true, the costs are just too high. People might see a kick-ass HTPC and want it, but when they see 800$+ they'll decide that a $100 Roku is "good enough"
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Touche salesman. Either way, we both have the same point. If you put a $1000 HTPC next to the $100 Roku's at your average electronics store, the average consumer will not understand the justification of 10x the price. I like golf, but it's not a hobby of mine and I'm not an enthusiast. I'm sure a $1000 set of clubs are better than my $200 Wilson's, but unless the putter gives me a bj every time I 1-putt :cool:, I don't think they will improve my game enough to justify the extra $800.
 
xFROSTx said:
Touche salesman. Either way, we both have the same point. If you put a $1000 HTPC next to the $100 Roku's at your average electronics store, the average consumer will not understand the justification of 10x the price. I like golf, but it's not a hobby of mine and I'm not an enthusiast. I'm sure a $1000 set of clubs are better than my $200 Wilson's, but unless the putter gives me a bj every time I 1-putt :cool:, I don't think they will improve my game enough to justify the extra $800.
Click to expand...

haha !! i see your point - Although I do believe the average consumer would pay $800 or so for a system that does everything mentioned in the OP. Technology is becoming a part of our lives unlike putters that give BJ's its almost a necessity to everyday living.. (haha)

I think the problem is that the average consumer is not aware of what a $800 well configured HTPC can do for them. I know non IT enthusiast people that would love to have all these options at their figertips, working smoothly and effortlessly they would happily pay $800 for it. I would...Would you ?

from my understading a good HTPC can do

movie and mucis libraries
cetegorise live tv strams
internet radio
skype
weather
games
email
net browsing
(have i missed any benefits ???)


All from your TV !!!!

I'll take 2!
 
VOLUME is the great cost cutter.

It is easy to build a $300-400 machine that will do all the media you want. We just need to make enough of them.
 
$800? No way would consumers pay for that. $300 - $400? Still too expensive. It needs to be $199 or less to have any chance at significant sales and be brain dead simple to use.
 
anferne85 said:
haha !! i see your point - Although I do believe the average consumer would pay $800 or so for a system that does everything mentioned in the OP. Technology is becoming a part of our lives unlike putters that give BJ's its almost a necessity to everyday living.. (haha)

I think the problem is that the average consumer is not aware of what a $800 well configured HTPC can do for them. I know non IT enthusiast people that would love to have all these options at their figertips, working smoothly and effortlessly they would happily pay $800 for it. I would...Would you ?

from my understading a good HTPC can do

movie and mucis libraries
cetegorise live tv strams
internet radio
skype
weather
games
email
net browsing
(have i missed any benefits ???)


All from your TV !!!!

I'll take 2!
Click to expand...


Something to note, a lot of this functionality you are talking about either didn't exist, or was glitchy to all hell up until the past year or so. We could debate "the turning point" all day long, but for the sake of discussion, IMO, it wasn't until Windows 7 came out did we really see HTPC's start to come into their own. I think I built my first HTPC using a PVR-150, Windows XP and Beyond TV back in 2006. Looking back, that thing had 1/10 of the functionality, quality and reliability I have now. Hell, I don't even think Beyond TV is even still around anymore. This all kind of reminds me of back in the late 90's when IMO, PC gaming really started taking off. Yeah, it had been around for a while before hand, but case modding/O.C.'ing was starting to become really popular and the original GeForce 256 was released. Even IT "enthusiasts" at the time had a hard time understanding why you would pay $300 for a video card, cut holes in the side of your case and paint it black (Half life was all the rage back then... Ahhh, memories :)). I picked one up as soon as I could save enough money to put in my newly modded PIII 550 and thought to myself, "Wow, it's a whole new ballgame now." HTPC's are just now starting to break out of this niche market area. Give it another couple of years, and I bet we will have the HTPC market you are picturing now.



EDIT: Jesus christ, this post makes me sound old for still being in my 20's.
 
danman said:
$800? No way would consumers pay for that. $300 - $400? Still too expensive. It needs to be $199 or less to have any chance at significant sales and be brain dead simple to use.
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Exactly! I'm no marketing major, but look at other industries as a blueprint. Cell Phones/Cable/Sat/Internet industries all do the same thing. Instead of having their "average" consumers pay high upfront costs for the equipment, it is subsidized with a contract and a monthly fee over time. Regardless of our own personal opinions on this, it's tried and true; and just they way things work. HTPC's just aren't quite ready to break into this "average consumer" market. Costs are quickly coming down enough to make this plausible, but the ease of use just isn't there yet. I'm sure it will get there eventually, but it takes time.
 
To be quite honest I think a HTPC should be a VCR-like device with a (hot-swappable) HDD (rack) and a CD/DVD/BR reader.

In other words, I think the cost of a basic (diskless) HTPC should be the same as a mass-market Blu-Ray player from Wally World. The HDDs should be plug-and-play and priced like the external HDDs you can buy from NewEgg.

This isn't complex, it's standardization of software and manufacturing volume.

Ultimately, a HTPC is an appliance.
 
Companies have been trying to put a PC in the family room for close to 20 years and the mass market has shown little to no interest. The cable and satellite companies equipment is usually straight forward and easy to use. It will probably be those companies that eventually bring Internet tv to those devices long before someone is able to mass market an idiot proof HTPC for the masses.

If the cable or satellite companies would get in bed with Hulu, Netflix, and the other major streaming services and split the profits of adding those subscription based services in with their monthly programming the masses would hop all over that. The masses want easy first and foremost and anything that involves more than turning it on and using a remote is not going to sell.
 
You can pretty much installed Media Portal with streamed MP, select directories where your media is stored, select your prefered codecs and your good to go. Where it gets complicated is setting up HULU and TV. (Although if you want the green button to work you need to disable WMC, so that is one tweek that can't seem to be avoided for now)

Every TV service has different demands and thats the way cable/sat companies want to keep it. They have no desire to make it easy for consumers not to rent their shit. Same gos for HULU, it's their fault it is not easy to integrate with. So once you get into needing TV configured good luck. Everyone has different TV demands, I prefer Medica Centers that support Client/Server connections so I don't need a TV card and cable connection for every computer and laptop in the house.
 
xFROSTx said:
Exactly! I'm no marketing major, but look at other industries as a blueprint. Cell Phones/Cable/Sat/Internet industries all do the same thing. Instead of having their "average" consumers pay high upfront costs for the equipment, it is subsidized with a contract and a monthly fee over time. Regardless of our own personal opinions on this, it's tried and true; and just they way things work. HTPC's just aren't quite ready to break into this "average consumer" market. Costs are quickly coming down enough to make this plausible, but the ease of use just isn't there yet. I'm sure it will get there eventually, but it takes time.
Click to expand...

If anything the device would have to have the dead simple UI of an Apple TV, the online support of a Boxee box, and the cablecard support of Media Center. It would need 2 cablecard tuners and at a minimum 500GB HD and a blu-ray drive to play BD's.

Consumers have two boxes connected to their TV - a cable box from their MSO and a BD/DVD player. You need to convince them why then need to replace one or the other with a new box.

All for $199 or less.
 
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Justintoxicated said:
You can pretty much installed Media Portal with streamed MP, select directories where your media is stored, select your prefered codecs and your good to go. Where it gets complicated is setting up HULU and TV. (Although if you want the green button to work you need to disable WMC, so that is one tweek that can't seem to be avoided for now)

Every TV service has different demands and thats the way cable/sat companies want to keep it. They have no desire to make it easy for consumers not to rent their shit. Same gos for HULU, it's their fault it is not easy to integrate with. So once you get into needing TV configured good luck. Everyone has different TV demands, I prefer Medica Centers that support Client/Server connections so I don't need a TV card and cable connection for every computer and laptop in the house.
Click to expand...

If my mom can't do it then it is DOA. Remember the blinking clock on VCR's? Device must be brain dead simple to use.

HITS:

DVD/BD player - stick in disc, hit play.
Cable box - Select station, its plays

Failures:

Media Center or any 'like' product - Know how to load an OS, install drivers/HW, configure codecs, etc.
Tivo - as easy it is to use its still a failure.
Goog TV, Boxee, etc - Niche products, large market failures.
 
danman said:
If my mom can't do it then it is DOA. Remember the blinking clock on VCR's? Device must be brain dead simple to use.

HITS:

DVD/BD player - stick in disc, hit play.
Cable box - Select station, its plays

Failures:

Media Center or any 'like' product - Know how to load an OS, install drivers/HW, configure codecs, etc.
Tivo - as easy it is to use its still a failure.
Goog TV, Boxee, etc - Niche products, large market failures.
Click to expand...

Well IMO the user has to take some responsibility for themselves or pay to have it setup. For example if you want to drive a Car, you need to learn to do it. If you want to setup OTA tv you need to learn about the topic or pay someone to do it for you. If youw ant to reload ammo, it's not going to reload itself.

If you strip away all the custom functionality of an HTPC your pretty much left with a DVD player. I guess I don't understand the question. Unless all of a sudden all the different business start holding hands and working together, and I do Mean ALL, then there won't be a plug in and everything just works solution. The only company I can see that working for is Apple where you have to conform to everything within their system to use their products. I don't see all internet media companies conforming to a single company any time soon.

I mean what would the said Media Center box be? A HTPC with Unlimited Storage, that automatically rips your movies and stores them for you, while conforming to Windows, Apple / Linux standards to make it available on the network to all other types of computers and devices? It would need to have Multiple different TV tuners and cable cards to be able to autodetect your cable company or service providers. or it would need to automatically detect media on other devices in the network and decide whether or not it should have permission to them. It would need to auto detect your Netflix / Amazon / Hulu information (because God forbid the user should have to program it in). It would need to auto detect your internet and network speeds, etc.

Don't forget that cable box isn't plug in and it plays, they vary from cable company to cable company and I can guarantee there is a lot of configuration that goes into those boxes as well.

Once a HTPC is configured it is as easy to use as a DVR or cable box. Maybe even easier since it's all integrated into one system.
 
Justintoxicated said:
Once a HTPC is configured it is as easy to use as a DVR or cable box. Maybe even easier since it's all integrated into one system.
Click to expand...

Too tired to address your other points, but I just wanted to point out that this isn't the case. Things break in HTPC's way more often than they do in a simple media box (be it STB, DVD player, or roku-type thingy). Its just the way of things when you have so many different pieces of hardware and software mashed up together. Stripping it all out isn't a solution either, because then, like you said, you're left without some of the key features of an HTPC (aka flexibility). When my HTPC acts up, I can fix it because I know how to do it.. but my mom sure as hell wouldn't even know where to start. Just because they know the basics doesn't mean they can fix the problems that crop up, and with any other kind of device, the basics are all they need.

What would be a good middle ground is if there was an HTPC-specific operating system. MS is working on developing WMC embedded, but that won't be customizable the way we're used to. Perhaps if they added some kind of "app" framework to streamline installation of extra functionality and make it much more transparent to the end user. The only major hurdle in my mind in that case would be the addition of non-standard codecs. currently, many people use external players like MPC-HC in order to play MKV's and the multitude of different audio, video and subtitle codecs found online. It would be very difficult to strike a balance between user-upgradable functionality (aka flexibility) while maintaining the ease-of-use that comes with a closed system which often have to be firmware upgarded to add functionality.
 
This is not how we make budget gaming computers in today's world.+ A few years ago, maybe, but not today.+ Here is what wedo today:

BUDGET: $500

$250: Biggest widescreen LCD you can find (HP 23 inch from Office Max for $240+tax) $150: Some used computer from Craigslist with decent specs.+ Talked the guy down from $300, because he needs to make rent. Make sure it has Vista, probably comes with speakers, keyboard, monitor, etc. $50:

Buy some more RAM
BONUS!+ If the computer you got from Craigslist came with anything like a monitor, printer, scanner, etc... sell it on Craigslist and buy more RAM (and maybe a cheap video card

MAIN POINT: A big awesome screen is way more important than pure specs
 
It's the cable industry that's the real problem here. I disagree with alot of this thread. I have a working HTPC windows 7 with a Ceton Cable card tuner - and I used to have a timer warner DVR.

1) Cable company hardware is NOT trouble free and reliable. They are usually outdated and glitch filled hardware that at most $200 bucks worth of components that they will charge you up to 12 bucks a month to use. So understand its in the cable companies BEST INTEREST to keep you using and renting their parts. It's a gold mine.

2) Cable Companies and the Cable card people have basically worked together to make it REALLY REALLY hard to do something relatively simple - record streams of an incoming data feed. Why? They want it this way. They make money when people like some of the above posters decide that cable company hardware is cheaper and more easy to use. The lose money when people like me build an HTPC and no longer pay their monthly fee.

A good example is something called 'switched digital video" here in NYC they use it to supposedly save bandwith. What it does is act like a mini cable modem and report back what channel you need so time warner can send those streams on demand. Time warner of course uses a propietary protocol for this rather then using something like internet protocol. This is so they can force HTPC users like me to add two of their switched digital adapters to my system - making it more bulky, unweildely and unreliable. Again they are actively working to screw people over who don't use their stuff.

Technically the challenges are pretty low and their is about zero reasons an XBOX 360/PS3 couldn't be adapted to solve all the 'technical' challenges the OP is talking about with mininal hardware costs added to the platform. But Microsoft and the other tech companies don't feel like taking on the mismatch of the cable's "technology" which serves at little more then a means to block competition for their hardware. In fact overseas the PS3 has a tuner card which would allow PS3 users to do most of what the OP wants. But over there cable companies weren't given such a stranglehold over the market.
 
Time Warner tuning adapters are the biggest pieces of shit ever made. Continuously need to be rebooted, replugged, etc.

I would really like to see one of the cable content providers float a streaming subscription model. Hell, I'd pay $5 a month just for Discovery, History or Science channels.
 
Machupo said:
Time Warner tuning adapters are the biggest pieces of shit ever made. Continuously need to be rebooted, replugged, etc.

I would really like to see one of the cable content providers float a streaming subscription model. Hell, I'd pay $5 a month just for Discovery, History or Science channels.
Click to expand...

Too bad the content providers won't let that happen at that price point. They like to bundle a number of channels together. For every DIY Channel that actually makes money, there's two shitty networks that wouldn't exist if it weren't for bundling.

Do you think anyone actually watches E or the TV Guide network?
 
I know plenty of chicks (and some dudes) who watch E! but I get your point. IPTV should alleviate some of the cost burden of shitty channels, though.

As to price points, that would be market driven, I was just throwing a # out there. I currently get some absurd number of channels (of which I watch maybe 15-20, and then only 2-3 regularly)... even if it was $10 a mo each for those three channels in HD, I'd still pay it and save a few bucks.
 
Activate: AMD said:
the hardware isn't even the beginning. The hardware is the easiest part, its the software thats the killer. Even experienced computer users can't get it right the first time, let alone the kind of people who buy off-the-shelf systems. Aside from the complexity of configuring the software within the current OS frameworks, a major sticking point is DRM. Without DRM somebody could probably create a custom linux version with everything built right in tailored to a specific hardware configuration. Unfortunately, DRM is, by its very nature, not open source, so only those who pay for the licenses get to play (AKA Microsoft) which rules out BD playback and CableCard, and CableCard doesn't have On Demand and all the other stuff that most people are used to. And you'd HAVE to have CableCard because the "average" consumers that would pay 600+ (probably more like $800 with the software suite) for an HTPC would be the ones who want to watch cable on it.

I think the biggest problem of all, though, is that the average consumer is borderline retarded compared to most of us (with regard to computers). They don't even know HTPC's exist, and even if they did they would be too stupid or lazy to figure out even the most basic system. Hell, I've seen plenty of people too stupid to figure out the default cableco box, let alone something they'd have to plug in themselves. I agree, there software options out there leave a LOT to be desired, but thats because none of the big players are putting too much effort into them as a result of the market being too small. (I will concede the notion that maybe if somebody put out decent, easy software that perhaps the market would grow)
Click to expand...

weuntouchable said:
Companies have been trying to put a PC in the family room for close to 20 years and the mass market has shown little to no interest. The cable and satellite companies equipment is usually straight forward and easy to use. It will probably be those companies that eventually bring Internet tv to those devices long before someone is able to mass market an idiot proof HTPC for the masses.

If the cable or satellite companies would get in bed with Hulu, Netflix, and the other major streaming services and split the profits of adding those subscription based services in with their monthly programming the masses would hop all over that. The masses want easy first and foremost and anything that involves more than turning it on and using a remote is not going to sell.
Click to expand...

danman said:
If anything the device would have to have the dead simple UI of an Apple TV, the online support of a Boxee box, and the cablecard support of Media Center. It would need 2 cablecard tuners and at a minimum 500GB HD and a blu-ray drive to play BD's.

Consumers have two boxes connected to their TV - a cable box from their MSO and a BD/DVD player. You need to convince them why then need to replace one or the other with a new box.

All for $199 or less.
Click to expand...

these responses are full of win!
 
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