KompressorV12
Limp Gawd
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ChingChang said:
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Why does HardOCP hate the ageia chip
- Thread starter iansilv
- Start date
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Big Fat Duck
Gawd
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I really dont want to pay $300 dollars more for my PC. That is all
pigwalk
[H]F Junkie
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If PPU pricing follows the trend of all over PC gear, then further down the line, when we do start seeing more than jsut 1 or 2 games utilizing it, prices should have gone down correct? So point is, why spend 300 now to use a PPU on 1 game and a tech demo, when in 6 months from now you can spend perhaps half that and have 10x's as many programs that can utilize it?
-wil
-wil
Terra said:Then don't?
No one is forcing you too, it's an emering technology, the support isn't widespread yet, I can understand you.
Terra - But I also see the possibilities of the PPU
It makes me laugh how people always say that. Look, it's not that we're bitching because we dont want to spend the $300, it's we are bitching because we dont want everyone to spend $300 on a PPU card that will eventually turn into something like Graphics cards, as in if you dont have one I guess you dont get to play the game. Things like PPU only levels will erupt, if you dont have a PPU it's as if your missing out on the world! I think the PPU has some serious potential and I think it will go places, which is why I'm bothered by the fact that sometime soon I'll be coughing up the extra dough just to see an extra 40 barrels flying around.
Another thing that bothers me is it using another PCI slot. Like it was said earlier, I dont have another PCI slot to sacrifice, will anything ever take advantage of these PCI-E 1x's? That would be a nice smart move. Also, put some sort of software package with it. PPU's should be coming with GRAW right now.
Killa_2327 said:
I think you misunderstand.
I am all pro-PPU.
No doubt about that.
But if people are not gonna buy it why whine?
Let people who buy it and regret whine.
They know what they are talking about
The PhysX will come in PCI-E form too.
It's no secret.
Never has been,
So I fail to see your complaint?
You will neither be one of the early adopters, nor can you infact use it right now even if yu got one.
GRAW is *beeeeeep* for promoting AGEIA's PhysX.
It mostly only does what HavokFX is all about..pure effect-physics.
The big "boom" will come when gameplay physics hits.
Physics is going to create some very inteactive "hunting" grounds
Terra - Not to mentions space-sims...every slug/beam/heatwave acts like a real unqiue slug/beam/heatwave...
The ppu is a great idea, and when implimented properly is pretty damn cool, but $300? Seriously, thats pathetic. Im not paying the same that I would pay for my video card just for physics, until the pricing comes WAY down you can definately forget it unless you have lots of money.
From what I've read so far, it looks like most of us are in agreement that the concept of a piece of hardware that can offload physics processing is a great idea. It's good to see that someone is trying to push the envelope in this direction. But until the engine can be written to take advantage of it, I really don't see it catching on too quickly. Maybe a few years down the road when developers have had a chance to work with it and develop the software to take advantage of it, then we will see some amazing stuff.
I think they might have really tripped themselves up by not having a software developer making an engine that could really show what it is capable of. (like ATI/Nvidia do with their cards) Unfortunately, right now, it looks like all they can do with the current graphics engines is just use it to add eye candy. Heck, maybe I'm wrong...maybe that is why the next Duke Nukem game has taken so long to come out! Maybe it is going to be the killer app for the card!!
I think they might have really tripped themselves up by not having a software developer making an engine that could really show what it is capable of. (like ATI/Nvidia do with their cards) Unfortunately, right now, it looks like all they can do with the current graphics engines is just use it to add eye candy. Heck, maybe I'm wrong...maybe that is why the next Duke Nukem game has taken so long to come out! Maybe it is going to be the killer app for the card!!
LoneWolf said:
That sums it up pretty much right there. When I buy a new video card for $300 I see an instant, and great improvement in all my games. When I buy a physics card for $300 I see some chunks fly off a wall in crappy GRAW. You'll have to pardon me if I don't wet myself.
NulloModo said:
1 & 2. I think you will find you are in the minority here. Most people are unsatisfied with the current physics in game. Why wouldn't you want things to be realistic? So that when you correct for a turn the way you'd have to in real life it doesn't help or turns too much? Why make people learn 2 different ways that things happen? And is it really that expensive to build a computer? $300 doesn't seem like that much to me for someone with a real job.
3. This has been discussed MANY times. The PPU is 100x more powerful at physics than a CPU core, you aren't gonna make up for not having a PPU with just 4 cores.
jester1176
[H]ard|Gawd
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Physics chips have the same hurdle to cross that sound cards have to. They have to show that there's a value to be had that justifies the cost. Value comes in either quality or performance. I wish them luck in proving both to enough people to be successful.
Russ said:
Yeah. I can't help but think "Pirate!" everytime I hear that lame argument. With the current quality of games, they last about 1-2 weeks each. So if you're buying all your games, $300 is nothing for real interactive physics in games - at last.
HardOCP News
[H] News
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- 0
When it comes to front page news, there is something a lot of people don't understand...we don't MAKE the news, we are simply reporting it. I get mail all the time "why are you hating on <insert company currently in spotlight>".
If you want to know what the truth is, let me explain how it happens:
a.) We are posting a collection of news from around the net that is of interest to our target audience. We post 2 or 3 news items an hour, all day, every day .
b.) Company A sends out product for review to wesites across the world. Soon enough, the reviews hit the net. For products under embargo / NDA they all hit the net at the same time.
c.) If the general concensus on a product is good / bad...it gets repeated a lot. Whether that is a good or bad conclusion isn't up to me, I just post the links to the various reviews.
d.) Fans of Company A are extremely upset when the review are less than favorable and tend to blame the bearer of bad news....the idiot that posted a link to the bad review (me).. If the reviews are favorable, fans of Company B...who hate Company A...start piling on that we are playing farvorites. Again the blame goes on the idiot that posted a link to the good review (me).
So, the moral of my story is this...we are not making the news, we just report it and sometimes that may make it seems like we only have "bad" things to say. A lot of the "hate" people see coming from the front page is misconstrued.
On the editorial side of things, you need only to remember this...the only "side" [H]ardOCP is on is YOUR side. Period. Read anything we have ever said about anything and you will know that to be true.
If you want to know what the truth is, let me explain how it happens:
a.) We are posting a collection of news from around the net that is of interest to our target audience. We post 2 or 3 news items an hour, all day, every day .
b.) Company A sends out product for review to wesites across the world. Soon enough, the reviews hit the net. For products under embargo / NDA they all hit the net at the same time.
c.) If the general concensus on a product is good / bad...it gets repeated a lot. Whether that is a good or bad conclusion isn't up to me, I just post the links to the various reviews.
d.) Fans of Company A are extremely upset when the review are less than favorable and tend to blame the bearer of bad news....the idiot that posted a link to the bad review (me).. If the reviews are favorable, fans of Company B...who hate Company A...start piling on that we are playing farvorites. Again the blame goes on the idiot that posted a link to the good review (me).
So, the moral of my story is this...we are not making the news, we just report it and sometimes that may make it seems like we only have "bad" things to say. A lot of the "hate" people see coming from the front page is misconstrued.
On the editorial side of things, you need only to remember this...the only "side" [H]ardOCP is on is YOUR side. Period. Read anything we have ever said about anything and you will know that to be true.
enlightenedby42
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,412
I think another big part of the criticism is simply that the product was launched with next to no software support. The two games it works on currently it doesn't help in any substanitive manner, and the numbers seem to have proved that quite a few times.
Also, it wasn't like Steve said on the front page that PhysX is ugly and its mother dresses it funny or anything. If anything I think a lot of folks are still giving Ageia the benefit of the doubt 'til games that actually use it drop.
The truth right now is that regardless of potential the only reason to bite is to be an early adopter, which is plenty of reason for a lot of people and that's all well and good!
Also, it wasn't like Steve said on the front page that PhysX is ugly and its mother dresses it funny or anything. If anything I think a lot of folks are still giving Ageia the benefit of the doubt 'til games that actually use it drop.
The truth right now is that regardless of potential the only reason to bite is to be an early adopter, which is plenty of reason for a lot of people and that's all well and good!
Well I'm not sure how much wiser one can gett from my post but anyways I'll try to say few words.
Well, Politics.
Good product ain't enough to make sucsses. Everything must fall in together. You have to have a place on a market and You have to know Your limmitations (I love Dirty Harry )
Hence if Ageia makes sucsses on PPU and makes a treath to a some major player I don't know how long are they going to be on market. We have seen even big Companies beeing destroyed. I've seen some muscling myself and couldn't belive it. But big fish eats small one. Only it's sad not knowing how small fish You are .
PCI-e x1 Products.
Many people wonder why aren't there X-Fi PCI-e x1 cards.
Well We all have seen what happend to AGP. Even if technology haven't reached it's full potential evolution can make it obsolete. Even politics can make it obsolete. For nVidia it was simple to push SLi and make quick end of AGP.
Why not PCI then? Well some of You might remmember Microchannel of IBM. It has destroyed IBM's 386,486 and PI PC Bizz. Why? It was propriatary bus. There is enormous aftermarket industry for PC. All of them where making ISA cards and wanted their share of a Microchannel but couldn't gett on a train. Aftermarket was much cheeper and wider then IBM's offerings on Microchanel and that was it. ISA was aftermarket standard.
Now days PCI is a aftermarket standard and almost all PC's have PCI slot's. If it's made for home user it's PCI.
I can understand a stand point of a Creative. They have invested in PCI products and have huge PCI market and good product why changing before it's needed.
There for Agaiemade good choice for PCI. They just couldn't see that people allready wanting their products are enthusisasts with cash and have Sli systems and have mostly not a single PCI slot free. Eventualy they are going to make it PCI-e x1 to.
PCI is not for ever but it lives longer then any other bus. It outlived a AGP to.
Back to PPU. Well most of Us look back into history and use their expiriance and their version of common sence to analyze amd predict what future could bring on Us.
Well nothing wrong with it. Basicly
I my self remmember having VooDoo I and just having few demos to run with showing to other friends who where more carefull with money what todays PC's can doo. It was magic but hardly worth it's money. Who cares I wanted to have it and I have had it.
Then came GL mods and real life apps and soon VooDoo I was lacking power so VooDoo II came out and came in two flavors and SLi capability. So I was running two 12 MB cards with many different 2D cards. Then came TNT and TNT2 and changed a world.
Point is 3dfx was capable to create it self a place in market with simple add on card wich have had a purpose and applications came along. Ageia trys a same but world is different now and there is no garanties same method can work twice.
Also very important to understand is a fact we all know somewhere inside but We like to ignore it. Timing fact. Like You have to bring a product to a market and then You solve bugs and envolve into a new more powerfull product if market accepts You.
TNT was promising everything but NTT2 started to doo some of it good and it took 4 generation of GeForce cards to have it play 3D games in realy better way.
VooDoo I open a market but couldn't realy cope with games still SLi technology We see even now and it's decendent of a 3dfx research back then (nVidia gott original SLi technology from 3dfx)
Look at XP. Install first version and start upgrading. Well You will need to DL whole new XP version if You look hoe much was changed. So first versions are actualy Beta versions and We all are testers.
So people wana have PPU now are just Beta testers and will form Public opinion and on some way make or brake a product.
Applications will doo just a same. If people like a game they are going to like PPU to disregarding on real need to have it or not.
Disregarding what realy happens in PPU and CPU and GPU all I see in videos showing a PPU technology is a more interactive objects. PPU is made to doo just that. To enchence effects and make things move. Lot's of thing. Better say everything You want (everything game designer wants to).
Makes me think on games with sequals where moving things came along in newer versions. I think on Counter Strike Condition Zero and Source. In source things move and interact. Great You can shoot barel and roll it to make it harder to oponent to move arround. Join a empty server and enjoy target practice day .All those bottles and cans could be fun to shoot. Still does it make a game better? Not realy because game isn't all about eye candy and Phisics and grafics and grafic engines it's more in game play. Specialy in case of a Counter Strike in multiplayers game play hence network ability.
I play still CZ it has simply better multiplayers engine and game feeling.
Also if game is intrigy and clever and sometimes very hard and even scary even with simple grafic engine, it can still be a hit. For average Joe even good drawn texture is worth more then hightech grafic engine solutions IMHO. Just from showing some stuff to people who aren't realy into a PC 3D grafics they look and notice mostly resolution AA, AF and nice textures. On second look they notice nice lightning effets and HDR. You have to show them soft shadows so they an realy notice it.
Personaly I find soft shadows sometimes great and sometimes distroying some textures in some games.
Also in good game You will be guided and to ocupided to enjoy sceenery in it's full eye candy potential.
I was to many times Pioneer. To many times I've waisted my money on newest and fastest stuff. I doo not doo it anymore. My time is gone I lett new generations (spend their money) test out PPU and wait till it's or accepted and functional in lot of games I play or I'm going to play or it reaches it's full potential ( PPU II anyone?)
Nothing holds back GPU making Companies to intergrate some sort of a PPU in GPU. Hell GPU's are already having more transistors then some CPU's. Nothing holds back game programers to use second cores better and We all see that dual and multicore CPU's marching strong. Look at Laptop market with Duo Core Centrinos. You can't gett a single core Centrino nowhere (atleast here in Netherlands You can't). All models are changed with new models and Widescreen is almost only option. So some things happen very very fast.
So I will wait and see. If PPU turns as needed I'll get one. If not who cares.
PPU definitly has potential and it's interesting and nice approach. Add a addon card and enjoy result.
Also soem people coment it price. Well it's what it is. Some people will gett it even if it costs 1000$. Specialy if it is going to prove it self as neccecary.
Also it's not fair to say grafic card plus PPU = to much money. You have a PC with grafic card allready I asume
We will see integrated PPU functions in GPU and software emulations of PPU and maybe some other PPU solutions. Then there are going to be a tests and reviews and We all are going to see what is fastes or best for Us.
If Ageia survives that period (maybe has allready second gen before otheres react) and makes best results it will sell and it will take serious part of 3D gaming market.
If they don't they are going to be forgoten as many others with clever solutions (PowerVR an Bit Boys and many others I've allready forgot)
So wait and see. People wanting to gett it now please doo and report.
I would like PPU to make it. Idea of having many different Processing units dooing their specific job allways looks interesting to me. I was allways adiring Consoles efficiency and simple solutions. Parallelizam and simplicity.
If we wan't PC gaming to envolve We need to welcome new ideas. Even if Ageia doesn't make it they have allready moved things in good direction and We are going to profit from it. Soon everything is going to interact and move in games. We loved moving lights and shadows. We are going to love sceens where whole jungle moves from wind and interaction.
Maybe to understand my stand point better I'm not running PIII and GeForceII but also not a SLi 7900GTX rig. In my gaming rig I run 7900GT. Before it I have had 6800GT so cards I think are best bang for a buck. I run SFF system Shuttle XPS SN25P with 4200+ X2 and 2 GB Corsair and 2x 250 GB HDDs + SB Audigy 2 NX. Hence low noise, nice looking, small still powerfull system. I want to be able to play new games but don't wan't to sell my kidney for it. I update when things gett to slow.
When PPU becomes necesity I will have one in one of my systems. Just to gett it to see how it looks like? Well not me, I don't have money for that kind of stuff anymore.
MD
Well, Politics.
Good product ain't enough to make sucsses. Everything must fall in together. You have to have a place on a market and You have to know Your limmitations (I love Dirty Harry
)Hence if Ageia makes sucsses on PPU and makes a treath to a some major player I don't know how long are they going to be on market. We have seen even big Companies beeing destroyed. I've seen some muscling myself and couldn't belive it. But big fish eats small one. Only it's sad not knowing how small fish You are
.PCI-e x1 Products.
Many people wonder why aren't there X-Fi PCI-e x1 cards.
Well We all have seen what happend to AGP. Even if technology haven't reached it's full potential evolution can make it obsolete. Even politics can make it obsolete. For nVidia it was simple to push SLi and make quick end of AGP.
Why not PCI then? Well some of You might remmember Microchannel of IBM. It has destroyed IBM's 386,486 and PI PC Bizz. Why? It was propriatary bus. There is enormous aftermarket industry for PC. All of them where making ISA cards and wanted their share of a Microchannel but couldn't gett on a train. Aftermarket was much cheeper and wider then IBM's offerings on Microchanel and that was it. ISA was aftermarket standard.
Now days PCI is a aftermarket standard and almost all PC's have PCI slot's. If it's made for home user it's PCI.
I can understand a stand point of a Creative. They have invested in PCI products and have huge PCI market and good product why changing before it's needed.
There for Agaiemade good choice for PCI. They just couldn't see that people allready wanting their products are enthusisasts with cash and have Sli systems and have mostly not a single PCI slot free. Eventualy they are going to make it PCI-e x1 to.
PCI is not for ever but it lives longer then any other bus. It outlived a AGP to.
Back to PPU. Well most of Us look back into history and use their expiriance and their version of common sence to analyze amd predict what future could bring on Us.
Well nothing wrong with it. Basicly
I my self remmember having VooDoo I and just having few demos to run with showing to other friends who where more carefull with money what todays PC's can doo. It was magic but hardly worth it's money. Who cares I wanted to have it and I have had it.
Then came GL mods and real life apps and soon VooDoo I was lacking power so VooDoo II came out and came in two flavors and SLi capability. So I was running two 12 MB cards with many different 2D cards. Then came TNT and TNT2 and changed a world.
Point is 3dfx was capable to create it self a place in market with simple add on card wich have had a purpose and applications came along. Ageia trys a same but world is different now and there is no garanties same method can work twice.
Also very important to understand is a fact we all know somewhere inside but We like to ignore it. Timing fact. Like You have to bring a product to a market and then You solve bugs and envolve into a new more powerfull product if market accepts You.
TNT was promising everything but NTT2 started to doo some of it good and it took 4 generation of GeForce cards to have it play 3D games in realy better way.
VooDoo I open a market but couldn't realy cope with games still SLi technology We see even now and it's decendent of a 3dfx research back then (nVidia gott original SLi technology from 3dfx)
Look at XP. Install first version and start upgrading. Well You will need to DL whole new XP version if You look hoe much was changed. So first versions are actualy Beta versions and We all are testers.
So people wana have PPU now are just Beta testers and will form Public opinion and on some way make or brake a product.
Applications will doo just a same. If people like a game they are going to like PPU to disregarding on real need to have it or not.
Disregarding what realy happens in PPU and CPU and GPU all I see in videos showing a PPU technology is a more interactive objects. PPU is made to doo just that. To enchence effects and make things move. Lot's of thing. Better say everything You want (everything game designer wants to).
Makes me think on games with sequals where moving things came along in newer versions. I think on Counter Strike Condition Zero and Source. In source things move and interact. Great You can shoot barel and roll it to make it harder to oponent to move arround. Join a empty server and enjoy target practice day .All those bottles and cans could be fun to shoot. Still does it make a game better? Not realy because game isn't all about eye candy and Phisics and grafics and grafic engines it's more in game play. Specialy in case of a Counter Strike in multiplayers game play hence network ability.
I play still CZ it has simply better multiplayers engine and game feeling.
Also if game is intrigy and clever and sometimes very hard and even scary even with simple grafic engine, it can still be a hit. For average Joe even good drawn texture is worth more then hightech grafic engine solutions IMHO. Just from showing some stuff to people who aren't realy into a PC 3D grafics they look and notice mostly resolution AA, AF and nice textures. On second look they notice nice lightning effets and HDR. You have to show them soft shadows so they an realy notice it.
Personaly I find soft shadows sometimes great and sometimes distroying some textures in some games.
Also in good game You will be guided and to ocupided to enjoy sceenery in it's full eye candy potential.
I was to many times Pioneer. To many times I've waisted my money on newest and fastest stuff. I doo not doo it anymore. My time is gone I lett new generations (spend their money) test out PPU and wait till it's or accepted and functional in lot of games I play or I'm going to play or it reaches it's full potential ( PPU II anyone?)
Nothing holds back GPU making Companies to intergrate some sort of a PPU in GPU. Hell GPU's are already having more transistors then some CPU's. Nothing holds back game programers to use second cores better and We all see that dual and multicore CPU's marching strong. Look at Laptop market with Duo Core Centrinos. You can't gett a single core Centrino nowhere (atleast here in Netherlands You can't). All models are changed with new models and Widescreen is almost only option. So some things happen very very fast.
So I will wait and see. If PPU turns as needed I'll get one. If not who cares.
PPU definitly has potential and it's interesting and nice approach. Add a addon card and enjoy result.
Also soem people coment it price. Well it's what it is. Some people will gett it even if it costs 1000$. Specialy if it is going to prove it self as neccecary.
Also it's not fair to say grafic card plus PPU = to much money. You have a PC with grafic card allready I asume
We will see integrated PPU functions in GPU and software emulations of PPU and maybe some other PPU solutions. Then there are going to be a tests and reviews and We all are going to see what is fastes or best for Us.
If Ageia survives that period (maybe has allready second gen before otheres react) and makes best results it will sell and it will take serious part of 3D gaming market.
If they don't they are going to be forgoten as many others with clever solutions (PowerVR an Bit Boys and many others I've allready forgot)
So wait and see. People wanting to gett it now please doo and report.
I would like PPU to make it. Idea of having many different Processing units dooing their specific job allways looks interesting to me. I was allways adiring Consoles efficiency and simple solutions. Parallelizam and simplicity.
If we wan't PC gaming to envolve We need to welcome new ideas. Even if Ageia doesn't make it they have allready moved things in good direction and We are going to profit from it. Soon everything is going to interact and move in games. We loved moving lights and shadows. We are going to love sceens where whole jungle moves from wind and interaction.
Maybe to understand my stand point better I'm not running PIII and GeForceII but also not a SLi 7900GTX rig. In my gaming rig I run 7900GT. Before it I have had 6800GT so cards I think are best bang for a buck. I run SFF system Shuttle XPS SN25P with 4200+ X2 and 2 GB Corsair and 2x 250 GB HDDs + SB Audigy 2 NX. Hence low noise, nice looking, small still powerfull system. I want to be able to play new games but don't wan't to sell my kidney for it. I update when things gett to slow.
When PPU becomes necesity I will have one in one of my systems. Just to gett it to see how it looks like? Well not me, I don't have money for that kind of stuff anymore.
MD
I think most people feel that way. Looking where its heading to.
I think they just wait and see. And don't hype to much around it. And giving it time to do its thing or not. And then bring a full review as things unfold.
Me I like Tactical shooters wich are slow pace and run acceptible at 15fps. instead those frag games wich need 60 to 90fps as recommended 30 as minimum.
30 would be enough for such slow pace gameplay. where Tactics and more interaction and realistic feel is more needed and more notiable.
Graw is a very different flavor of a GR series game. But still falls in that sub genre.
And I like it even without PPU.
It's to early to buy but also to judge this new produkt with a such a negative conclusion that sway away of costumers and interrest. So The choice of not reviewing it seems a good one, but instead some good open ended advice. It's in to early state, not much to bench with and not much interresting use in games for a large audience as also benchable games. And a open conclusion to wait for what the future would bring. instead burning it to the ground now.
For me, don't know if ageia make it to a sucses because it's totaly not in there hands but in the hands of the Game Dev's. Ageia give only Hardware with potentional? Wich is now unleashed on the market.
Some Dev's Teams must bring a high profile Class AAA title that put PhysX to good use like truely enhanced gameplay due to Physics so creates the need for a PPU. Wonder if UT2007 would be it. Or a other title.
Enhanced gameplay due to Physics, wich is a large undertake?
For the long run. Dual core Quad core aren't the immediate threat for PPU. Because To take Graphics to the next level GPU drivers and render module of game engines must be SMP enabled a Single core using non SMP Game engine renderpipe would mean staying behind as GPU become more powefull and are very parrallizing computing beasts wich get bigger and bigger in transistor count by each dieshrink and need CPU power to feed them. Unless your monitor grows with it in pixel dementions. Not.
The Ageia P1 is currently behind in die shrink 130nm vs 65 for CPU and 90nm for GPU so could make a catch up. If The markt interrest kick's in. A 65nm for the Px2.
The treat for PPU is a future of a-semetric multi cores. Like 1*gPPU+7*SPE of the Cell CPU but then for X86 Platform from AMD & iNtel. Specialised on die cores wich are beter then generic CPU and like GPU very suitable for effective Physics power. This means in The future CPU could have decent Physic power. But must share it with other task like AI.And gaem logic and manegemnet. PPU Px3 could be a dedicated High end sulution The CPU a more budged solution.
Havok. Could kill Ageia succes wich they currently doing is divide enthausiast. But the future for Havok is also in jepordy. DirectX is developng there standard PhysicX component Direct PhyscX. So any dev can take use of Physics by CPU PPU or GPU.
Think Of glide vs DirectX.
Havok core Bussnes is API. Is thus expensive to keep there busness running compared to PhysX API and DirecX. Ageia is Hardware. Which have to cost somewhat to keep the bussness running for them.
So for both the future is clouded.
ATI and nV could incorporate the Eye candy Physics to there hardware. DX10 or later.
Ageia solutions could aim more at Gameplay Physics later stage.
But that's all far away first let wait on Ut2007 and Cellfactor retail game.
At least Physics got the Dev market its full potentinal. Hoping they don't forget AI.
What Happend to that AI CPU project AIS-1?
New Idea's from AMD to open HT for third party and a HT slot HTX for a array of Co-P- cores in a CoPU. With there own Ram slots.
PersonalyI my interrest is for a more tactical realistic mordern combat shooter game wich use Gameplay PhysX to enhance the gameplay.
Now I upgrade if a game needs better or new hardware or it can use it for optimum spects.
Graw is one of my new favo games, and it can use it. It doesn't need it but it adds to it, only just abit and so I want it and can afford it. altho it's price and gamingvalue ratio is a bit low currently. But was also very curiously about CellFactor. And want to see it with my own experience.
Just one of the early adopters
I think they just wait and see. And don't hype to much around it. And giving it time to do its thing or not. And then bring a full review as things unfold.
Me I like Tactical shooters wich are slow pace and run acceptible at 15fps. instead those frag games wich need 60 to 90fps as recommended 30 as minimum.
30 would be enough for such slow pace gameplay. where Tactics and more interaction and realistic feel is more needed and more notiable.
Graw is a very different flavor of a GR series game. But still falls in that sub genre.
And I like it even without PPU.
It's to early to buy but also to judge this new produkt with a such a negative conclusion that sway away of costumers and interrest. So The choice of not reviewing it seems a good one, but instead some good open ended advice. It's in to early state, not much to bench with and not much interresting use in games for a large audience as also benchable games. And a open conclusion to wait for what the future would bring. instead burning it to the ground now.
For me, don't know if ageia make it to a sucses because it's totaly not in there hands but in the hands of the Game Dev's. Ageia give only Hardware with potentional? Wich is now unleashed on the market.
Some Dev's Teams must bring a high profile Class AAA title that put PhysX to good use like truely enhanced gameplay due to Physics so creates the need for a PPU. Wonder if UT2007 would be it. Or a other title.
Enhanced gameplay due to Physics, wich is a large undertake?
For the long run. Dual core Quad core aren't the immediate threat for PPU. Because To take Graphics to the next level GPU drivers and render module of game engines must be SMP enabled a Single core using non SMP Game engine renderpipe would mean staying behind as GPU become more powefull and are very parrallizing computing beasts wich get bigger and bigger in transistor count by each dieshrink and need CPU power to feed them. Unless your monitor grows with it in pixel dementions. Not.
The Ageia P1 is currently behind in die shrink 130nm vs 65 for CPU and 90nm for GPU so could make a catch up. If The markt interrest kick's in. A 65nm for the Px2.
The treat for PPU is a future of a-semetric multi cores. Like 1*gPPU+7*SPE of the Cell CPU but then for X86 Platform from AMD & iNtel. Specialised on die cores wich are beter then generic CPU and like GPU very suitable for effective Physics power. This means in The future CPU could have decent Physic power. But must share it with other task like AI.And gaem logic and manegemnet. PPU Px3 could be a dedicated High end sulution The CPU a more budged solution.
Havok. Could kill Ageia succes wich they currently doing is divide enthausiast. But the future for Havok is also in jepordy. DirectX is developng there standard PhysicX component Direct PhyscX. So any dev can take use of Physics by CPU PPU or GPU.
Think Of glide vs DirectX.
Havok core Bussnes is API. Is thus expensive to keep there busness running compared to PhysX API and DirecX. Ageia is Hardware. Which have to cost somewhat to keep the bussness running for them.
So for both the future is clouded.
ATI and nV could incorporate the Eye candy Physics to there hardware. DX10 or later.
Ageia solutions could aim more at Gameplay Physics later stage.
But that's all far away first let wait on Ut2007 and Cellfactor retail game.
At least Physics got the Dev market its full potentinal. Hoping they don't forget AI.
What Happend to that AI CPU project AIS-1?
New Idea's from AMD to open HT for third party and a HT slot HTX for a array of Co-P- cores in a CoPU. With there own Ram slots.
PersonalyI my interrest is for a more tactical realistic mordern combat shooter game wich use Gameplay PhysX to enhance the gameplay.
Now I upgrade if a game needs better or new hardware or it can use it for optimum spects.
Graw is one of my new favo games, and it can use it. It doesn't need it but it adds to it, only just abit and so I want it and can afford it. altho it's price and gamingvalue ratio is a bit low currently. But was also very curiously about CellFactor. And want to see it with my own experience.
Just one of the early adopters
DangerIsGo
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2005
- Messages
- 3,000
ROFL!
I have a 16bit sound card sitting on my shelf..its long as hell, is ISA, and has removeable RAM sticks!
I should sell it for .....vintage value I think I can see how this might turn out.
The product eventually proves itself useful however, by the time it does, most have held off too late and the graphics cards companies had managed to 'fudge' similar but pseudo effects from their cards. The company that designed the cards goes into receivership and Nvidia or ATI snap them up and incorporate it into their armoury and 're-release' it 18 months later as an on-board or separate function once the fuss dies down.
The product eventually proves itself useful however, by the time it does, most have held off too late and the graphics cards companies had managed to 'fudge' similar but pseudo effects from their cards. The company that designed the cards goes into receivership and Nvidia or ATI snap them up and incorporate it into their armoury and 're-release' it 18 months later as an on-board or separate function once the fuss dies down.
DangerIsGo said:ROFL!
I have a 16bit sound card sitting on my shelf..its long as hell, is ISA, and has removeable RAM sticks!
Sounds like a SB 32 AWE?
30 pin RAM right?
Terra - Longest card I ever have owned *L*
daglesj said:
Since many can't seem to understand the potential beyond the "eye candy" that has only been delivered so far, I think you've stated the reality on the money.
Once it's re-released and game developers actually try to do real interactive physics simulations (ala the gravity gun in HL2 to all new levels, meaning the user can interact with "everything") everyone will wonder how they lived without it and exclaim "it's the shiznit!"
Those that stated the idea sucked in the first half of the story will be the new !!!!!!s to troll all forums and post how awesome it truely is.
As to those that wonder about GPU Physics, see my post here http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1029530218&postcount=48 This is direct from Havok's material about Havok FX. Eye candy. You can do the same without Havok FX and just use the SM 3.0 shaders. Aegia could add this feature if they wanted to, but the focus is on their hardware product of course. SM 3.0 "physics" is only one-way communication so it'll never be used for the interactive physics models, it can only be static CPU precalculated "eye candy".
Aegia doesn't have any titles shipping that demonstrate this and they couldn't wait any longer financialy before releasing the product. It's too bad a commercial game isn't available now to really illustrate the difference.
But even if Aegia dies, it'll be "long live Aegia" when ATi or nVIDIA or someone else with the resources picks up their tech and takes it to the finish line. Kinda like how SLI (scan line interleave) died for Voodoo but was reborn in nVIDIA as SLI (scalable link interface). I know that the tech changed, but the concept is still the same, more GPU's for more performance. PPU will live on and expand, perhaps just not as Aegia.
HighTest said:
Not if I spot them...
Then it will be time for one of my favourite games:
Hit people with their own words
Again Ageia's PhysX is a BI-DIRECTIONAL full-fleged physics solution
HavokFX/ATI's "solution" is a SINGLE-DIRECTION eye-candy wanna-be-physics thingy.
Terra - It's like comparing SM1.0 to SM4.0...a VERY bad idea...