Why are Macs becoming more popular for Network/System engineers?

mct

[H]ard|Gawd
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A recent thread got me thinking about this but over the last couple of years I have noticed a trend among network/system engineers where they have moved away from the PC and are adopting Macs as their preferred computer of choice. In the other thread it was mentioned by NetJunkie that not only are Cisco engineers moving towards Macs but also VMware and EMC engineers as well. Even though I have noticed this I have never asked why this is the case I am now wondering why. Why are Macs becoming the preferred platform for these people? The reason I ask is that I am in the market for a new laptop and at my job I work with Cisco, VMware, and EMC gear on a daily basis. What are the benefits of using OS X? NFS support is one thing that I can see as being a benefit. Normally if I need mount an NFS export for testing or verifying I normally just use a linux VM that I have so I don't have to deal with the NFS client on Windows.
 
I've wondered the same thing, in fact I kinda find it comical because here at work we've got a few people that have moved to Macs but then requested I build them a Windows VM. Seems a bit ironic to me, why not just stick to the Windows machine in the first place?
 
I've wondered the same thing, in fact I kinda find it comical because here at work we've got a few people that have moved to Macs but then requested I build them a Windows VM. Seems a bit ironic to me, why not just stick to the Windows machine in the first place?

Yep, and I have seen some with Macs running Fusion with a Windows 7 VM to use on things that don't work well on Macs.
 
Because these Network/System engineers are making more money with all of their experience. Thus can afford to spend twice as much on things.

On a serious note, Mac's are nice if you can afford to drop money on them. I still wouldn't, but that's just me. :)
 
I'm sure part of it is a status symbol. Macs cost more money and if you're toting around a Mac vs. a Dell or HP obviously there's more "wow" factor there.

From other guys I've talked to they go on about how they don't have to deal with the same problems with a Mac that they do with a PC. "It just works," they say.

Even so, I simply cannot justify to myself spending $3,000+ on a computer when I can get one with equal specs for less than half that amount especially when I consider how rapidly technology evolves and they depreciate.
 
Because these Network/System engineers are making more money with all of their experience. Thus can afford to spend twice as much on things.

On a serious note, Mac's are nice if you can afford to drop money on them. I still wouldn't, but that's just me. :)

Can you show me a nice laptop that gets about 8-10 hours battery life that looks sleek and sexy like the macbook ? I mean laptop that has no BATTERY that sticks out the back or sides or bottom..

I can run windows 7 pro on my macbook pro 13" for way LONGER than a pc laptop.
 
Please don't turn this into a classic Mac vs PC debate. I want to know what benefits Macs have over PCs in this industry. I find it hard to believe that these engineers from these various companies choose Macs because they are trendy and they are the cool thing to have. These guys are not idiots so they must have legitimate reasons why they chose Macs.
 
I think the main reasons are form factor / battery life and something "different" to play with.
 
Can you show me a nice laptop that gets about 8-10 hours battery life that looks sleek and sexy like the macbook ? I mean laptop that has no BATTERY that sticks out the back or sides or bottom..

I can run windows 7 pro on my macbook pro 13" for way LONGER than a pc laptop.

Can you show me that you can take a joke? :D
 
Please don't turn this into a classic Mac vs PC debate. I want to know what benefits Macs have over PCs in this industry. I find it hard to believe that these engineers from these various companies choose Macs because they are trendy and they are the cool thing to have. These guys are not idiots so they must have legitimate reasons why they chose Macs.

I'm not saying that's the only reason, but I'm sure it's part of it for some.

However, the "they just work" argument seems to be the most common from the few I've talked to. They work on technology all day long -- fixing servers, networks, storage, designing infrastructures, etc. and the last thing they want to do is worry about their own computers.

Not having owned a Mac I can't comment on whether "they just work" or not.
 
I'm not saying that's the only reason, but I'm sure it's part of it for some.

However, the "they just work" argument seems to be the most common from the few I've talked to. They work on technology all day long -- fixing servers, networks, storage, designing infrastructures, etc. and the last thing they want to do is worry about their own computers.

Not having owned a Mac I can't comment on whether "they just work" or not.

I have never used a Mac either however my Windows laptop "just works" too. I can't say that I spend anytime out of my work day fixing issues with my Windows desktop or laptop.
 
as far as desktops, i guess i can see the merit....

as far as laptops, i cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone in the computer related field can bare to use a keyboard without edit keys. that is 90% of the reason i will not buy a mac laptop. literally, its that important.
 
Has nothing to do with "using something different or shiny". A lot of us are hard on our gear and I've found my aluminum Macs hold up far better than say a plastic Lenovo (and I've carried many Thinkpads over the years).

It's simple. OSX is solid. It's built on a good UNIX operating system that lets use use a lot of tools that we want and/or need. They "just work" and while I realize that Windows now works most of the time...a lot of us moved on since then. Plus, I find OSX to be "lighter" than Windows. I don't even notice it..just my apps. When I jump on wireless networks my MacBook just works...yet I see people on Windows systems still fighting with custom tools and all that. Still not as simple.

If I want a Windows only tool I fire up a VM but that's less and less and less as time goes on. They are light, great battery, great display...etc. Like me, most Cisco/EMC/VMware SEs live and make their living on their notebooks so it's well worth getting something nicer. For most of those guys it's not an out of pocket expense. The company buys them so it has nothing to do with "They make a lot so they can buy a lot". I buy mine...pretty much...but that's due to my request. I like managing/upgrading when I want.

Sitting at a customer site right now with some guys from Riverbed...guess what the SEs have? :)
 
I'd guess it would be because:
Work is paying for it, so the extra cost doesn't really matter
They get the benefits of shell scripting on a unix based system in addition to being able to easily boot into windows as well.
It's always nice to be familiar with all the major OS's when having to support clients/coworkers.
 
I use a Linux laptop out in the field with an XP VM if needed. The main reason is viruses, I find that its less of an issue using some idiots virused network, work out whats going on etc with a Linux laptop than using an Windows latops. The mac thing is probably becuase they are quite light.
 
Because it more security?

Not really a system is only as secure as the user.

I use a Linux laptop out in the field with an XP VM if needed. The main reason is viruses, I find that its less of an issue using some idiots virused network, work out whats going on etc with a Linux laptop than using an Windows latops. The mac thing is probably becuase they are quite light.

i am leaning towards battery life and a littler more rugged with the aluminum bodies, also with a unix based core, as said above many of the tools are already there that many people would need on a job.
 
1. POSIX OS (yes you can shoehorn in most of the stuff to Windows but on the Mac it's native)
2. Build quality (after my last $2000 Dell Latitude E6500 turned to sh*t in less than a year I gave up on Dell
3. TRACKPAD TRACKPAD TRACKPAD

Seriously, I cannot emphasize #3 enough. I have used PC laptops pretty exclusively for the last ten years or so and have always dealt with the craptastic trackpads that never seemed to improve over the years. Once I tried one of the newer MacBooks with the glass trackpad I was hooked. First of all it's a huge surface, it's effortless to move around, and my favorite part is the multitouch scrolling. I know other brands have multitouch trackpads now but in my experience they still pale in comparison to the Mac.

To me, the trackpad is reason enough to buy a Mac, regardless of the other advantages. I like it so much I actually bought the Magic Trackpad accessory for my desktop workstation.

The keyboard (apart from missing some handy keys, I agree) has great response and feel. I really like the fact that it's backlit (Yeah I know other manufacturers have this now).

My biggest complaint about the MacBook line (lack of higher-resolution screen in the 13" model) has now been rectified with the new MacBook Air. That coupled with the spaces feature of the OS (and the effortless switching between spaces using three fingers on the trackpad) means I very rarely feel too constrained... a pretty amazing feat for a 13" screen.

The Magnetized charger is also a great feature. I've tripped over power cords more times than I care to admit, and it is nice not to have to pick my laptop up off the floor and pray it didn't get ruined.

And on a very shallow note, Mac apps in general are just pretty to look at. There's a design aesthetic there that I appreciate. Means almost nothing in reality... just a bonus.
 
3. TRACKPAD TRACKPAD TRACKPAD

Seriously, I cannot emphasize #3 enough. I have used PC laptops pretty exclusively for the last ten years or so and have always dealt with the craptastic trackpads that never seemed to improve over the years. Once I tried one of the newer MacBooks with the glass trackpad I was hooked. First of all it's a huge surface, it's effortless to move around, and my favorite part is the multitouch scrolling. I know other brands have multitouch trackpads now but in my experience they still pale in comparison to the Mac's.

Trackpoint Trackpoint Trackpoint. not having to leave keybaord = godsend.
theres a reason virtually every business model laptop from HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc uses trackpoints. because they are better when you actually want to work, not go look at me swipe my fingers in a cool shape. i urge EVERYONE who has not given trackpoints a good chance. one you get used to not having to move yoru hands from the keyboard to use the cursor, you wont go back.
 
A recent thread got me thinking about this but over the last couple of years I have noticed a trend among network/system engineers where they have moved away from the PC and are adopting Macs as their preferred computer of choice. In the other thread it was mentioned by NetJunkie that not only are Cisco engineers moving towards Macs but also VMware and EMC engineers as well. Even though I have noticed this I have never asked why this is the case I am now wondering why. Why are Macs becoming the preferred platform for these people? The reason I ask is that I am in the market for a new laptop and at my job I work with Cisco, VMware, and EMC gear on a daily basis. What are the benefits of using OS X? NFS support is one thing that I can see as being a benefit. Normally if I need mount an NFS export for testing or verifying I normally just use a linux VM that I have so I don't have to deal with the NFS client on Windows.

I'll say the same thing I said before:
POSIX os on a mobile platform that has full support (from the vendor) for said POSIX os. No more fighting with anything for your mobile workstation - everything just works; especially because the people that are using these systems are troubleshooting actual enterprise problems all day long, they often don't want to be fighting it on their own workstation as well.

Running Linux on your thinkpad is all good, till something breaks - who do you get to fix it then? The OSS community will get it eventually, or you could, but IBM isn't going to have it as a big priority to make sure it works. Apple sure does though.
 
Trackpoint Trackpoint Trackpoint. not having to leave keybaord = godsend.
theres a reason virtually every business model laptop from HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc uses trackpoints. because they are better when you actually want to work, not go look at me swipe my fingers in a cool shape.

How do you scroll with your trackpoint? How do you zoom in/out with it? I've had plenty of laptops with trackpoints, but they all also offered a trackpad. That alone tells me that most people prefer a trackpad. I tried using trackpoints at various times and never found them to be quicker than the trackpad (even the crappy PC ones).

I know they have their proponents though--just not very many.
 
Trackpoint Trackpoint Trackpoint. not having to leave keybaord = godsend.
theres a reason virtually every business model laptop from HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc uses trackpoints. because they are better when you actually want to work, not go look at me swipe my fingers in a cool shape. i urge EVERYONE who has not given trackpoints a good chance. one you get used to not having to move yoru hands from the keyboard to use the cursor, you wont go back.

Used one for years. After a few tweaks to my macbook trackpad, I can do things on it much faster than I ever could with the trackpoint.

Two fingers to scroll FTW.
 
Has nothing to do with "using something different or shiny". A lot of us are hard on our gear and I've found my aluminum Macs hold up far better than say a plastic Lenovo (and I've carried many Thinkpads over the years).

It's simple. OSX is solid. It's built on a good UNIX operating system that lets use use a lot of tools that we want and/or need. They "just work" and while I realize that Windows now works most of the time...a lot of us moved on since then. Plus, I find OSX to be "lighter" than Windows. I don't even notice it..just my apps. When I jump on wireless networks my MacBook just works...yet I see people on Windows systems still fighting with custom tools and all that. Still not as simple.

If I want a Windows only tool I fire up a VM but that's less and less and less as time goes on. They are light, great battery, great display...etc. Like me, most Cisco/EMC/VMware SEs live and make their living on their notebooks so it's well worth getting something nicer. For most of those guys it's not an out of pocket expense. The company buys them so it has nothing to do with "They make a lot so they can buy a lot". I buy mine...pretty much...but that's due to my request. I like managing/upgrading when I want.

Sitting at a customer site right now with some guys from Riverbed...guess what the SEs have? :)

This too. My longest lasting boxes were an old thinkpad and my Inspiron 9300. Both were getting pretty beat up at 1.5 years, the IBM slightly less so, but still getting creaky.

Other than a couple of scratches, my MBP 13" is just as solid as it was the day I bought it (just over 2 years ago), and I spent all of 1k on it (refurb about 3 months after they came out). I've got another year of warranty left on it, and it will be good for the full length, if not way past that.
 
How do you scroll with your trackpoint?
theres usually a button in between the left and right click. you hold it when you want to scroll. that sits right near your thumb. scrolling is one of my favorite aspects of a trackpoint.

How do you zoom in/out with it?
control + scroll. same way you zoom on a desktop mouse.

I've had plenty of laptops with trackpoints, but they all also offered a trackpad. That alone tells me that most people prefer a trackpad. I tried using trackpoints at various times and never found them to be quicker than the trackpad (even the crappy PC ones).

by that logic, there are more pcs than macs, so more people prefer pcs. you want to apply what your implicating to that scenario?

heres MY point: most people who use computers are dummies, dont listen to what sells more. the inclusion of a trackpoint almost universally in business models from top companies in the market shows that there is a strong correlation between a machine meant to "get shit done" and the inclusion of a trackpoint.

I know they have their proponents though--just not very many.

my point is that apple doesnt seem to be very serious about marketing toward professionals if they dont include the option. their lack of a trackpoint is not nearly as bad as their lack of edit keys though.
 
Well they aren't for everyone. I've tried getting used to a trackpoint and couldn't. How much time have you actually spent using one of the newer Mac trackpads (I think they were introduced around 2007 or 2008) to compare it? See the post above mine for someone who actually went from trackpoint to Mac trackpad and prefers it.

It bugs me when people bash something without ever using it. Hope you're not one of those people.
 
We went through the whole Mac notebook thing for FE's who sometimes had to go to Apple's hq for meetings and couldn't "dare" to be seen with a non-apple there. I guess the people at apple are that craptastic that they won't do business with you if you don't sell your soul to their product. Funny thing for us is they had plenty of our competitors products in place at their offices but we didn't seem to care, because all we cared about was MAKING MONEY, not whether or not some d-bag is using some one elses product.

Long story short before I get off tangent, yeah Fusion and Parallels and boot camp and all that crap is nice, but some of our software WOULD NOT WORK ON THEM. And when you call a vendor for software, and say hey this crap isn't working, and then they ask for system info and they find out it's on a VM, or boot camp, they tell you to pound sand. Our FE's ended up having to carry two laptops, one mac and one thinkpad. Guess what most of them did with the mac's? Sent them back to us.

Because they "just work" except when they don't. And Apple has virtually non-existent enterprise support. Don't believe me? Try calling them and see how much help you get.

Also, I am not sure if it's still the case now but when we had them an onsite warranty was not an option on Macbook Pros. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Seriously? That's why we had 600+ thinkpads from Lenovo and the 60 Macbooks we bought got tossed. Half of them had to go back to the depot for one thing or another over the year span we tried to use them, some of those for the awesome aluminum chassis BENDING over the cd slot where a person would rest their hand to type! That's quality construction!
 
I'd like to echo that most profressionals don't actually pay out of pocket for the Macs. If they had to then I'd put good money on it that many of them wouldn't actually use a Mac but go ahead and install the tools they need on a PC rather than have them present in the OS on a Mac.

The comment about wrestling with your workstation is meh imho. Don't put a shitty wireless card in your PC laptop and it "just works" every time. I have been using PC laptops since 1999 and always bought Intel wireless cards with it (though my very first laptop didn't have wireless built in).

Basically it's like this, if you have problems with a PC then it's user error.
 
I'm a Windows guy at heart, been playing with my Uncle's new Macbook and love it. I've had all types of Windows laptops, IBMs, Dell Latitudes, XPS..etc. The Macbook is just a really nice machine, fast, works very well, excellent battery life..etc. These are the primary reasons i'm pursuing one now. If I need windows I can run it in fusion...not really a big deal to me.
 
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I'd like to echo that most profressionals don't actually pay out of pocket for the Macs. If they had to then I'd put good money on it that many of them wouldn't actually use a Mac but go ahead and install the tools they need on a PC rather than have them present in the OS on a Mac.

The comment about wrestling with your workstation is meh imho. Don't put a shitty wireless card in your PC laptop and it "just works" every time. I have been using PC laptops since 1999 and always bought Intel wireless cards with it (though my very first laptop didn't have wireless built in).

Basically it's like this, if you have problems with a PC then it's user error.

My last laptop that I had linux on encountered 3-4 different actual kernel bugs that were currently unfixed, let alone wireless (which actually worked most of the time, except for older WEP syetems). Didn't feel like digging around into boot init scripts anymore to disable things when I didn't have to - I spend all day doing that instead. :)
 
Couple more things:

1. I've used many, many Thinkpads with the best track points out there. I'll never go back from the trackpad on a Mac. I've even moved to one on my iMac. Once you use gestures you don't go back. Simple as that. It's not just cool shapes with your fingers...I flip desktops probably 5K times per day with a simple flip movement. I go forward/back on my browser probably 500 times a day using that gesture. Expose, same thing. No going back.

2. We're not talking about Macs in a corp environment. We're talking Macs used by SEs that self-support. I was the first Mac user at Varrow and now it's at least 50/50. I told them up front I'd handle everything myself. VMware/Cisco/EMC is the same way. I know for a good while Cisco was all self supported via internal Wikis and stuff and people loved it.

3. Many people are moving to deploying VM images for the standard image. EMC does that. Have a Mac? Have a PC? Who cares. Here is your image.

I used to run Linux on a Thinkpad and the reason I went Mac was to get a good UNIX OS that was built to run on the hardware. I know Linux support has gotten FAR better...but it's not tuned for specific hardware like OSX is on this MacBook Air I'm typing on right now.
 
1. UNIX-compliant operating system. Our entire backend infrastructure is based on *NIX. I interface with these machines on a daily basis. On my Mac, everything I expect about working with *NIX is already right there on the system. There's a full gcc stack available, and python and perl come fully working out-of-the-box. I use the console for a large portion of my work, and there's not really a viable console/shell for doing real work on Windows. If you code for or administer *NIX systems, this makes a huge difference.
2. Form factor, weight and battery life. Different people have different priorities here, but the Macbook Air offers a great balance of power and portability for me.

That's what is most important to me. I'm sure others have their own reasons. I spend a lot of time with UNIX systems for my job. Mac OS X just happens to be the best desktop implementation of UNIX available right now, so I use it. The fast, light, usable hardware certainly doesn't hurt either.

Also, if I need Windows, I can run it easily in a VM. If I need Mac OS from a Windows machine, I'm SOL.
 
"Also, if I need Windows, I can run it easily in a VM. If I need Mac OS from a Windows machine, I'm SOL. "

To be fair, isn't that Apple's fault?
 
"Also, if I need Windows, I can run it easily in a VM. If I need Mac OS from a Windows machine, I'm SOL. "

To be fair, isn't that Apple's fault?

Partly, I suppose. But who cares whose fault it is? I have to support the environment and the client regardless of fault. "I can't fix your Mac environment because I can't virtualize it" doesn't mean anything to the client who is losing time/money while his systems are down.
 
Yeah, I know. I just have a longstanding irritation about Apple's arrogance (goes way back to almost going out of business back in the 90's because they didn't want to cut their margins on HW...)
 
Yeah, I know. I just have a longstanding irritation about Apple's arrogance (goes way back to almost going out of business back in the 90's because they didn't want to cut their margins on HW...)

I'm not sure it's just arrogance at play here. I won't deny the arrogance of forbidding virtualization of your OS in the EULA, but the truth is that it just doesn't run very well virtualized in the first place. VMWare has been doing some good things on this front lately, and the latest ESXi actually supports Mac OS as long as it's on Apple hardware. However, support for Mac OS from other virtualization vendors (VirtualBox, KVM, Xen, Hyper-V) is poor at best and nonexistant at worst. VirtualBox has taken many years to get as good as it is at virtualizing Mac OS, and it's just barely passable on good hardware. My point is that there are clearly technical hurdles that have yet to be overcome, not just legal/EULA/"arrogance" issues.
 
I'd guess it would be because:
Work is paying for it, so the extra cost doesn't really matter
They get the benefits of shell scripting on a unix based system in addition to being able to easily boot into windows as well.
It's always nice to be familiar with all the major OS's when having to support clients/coworkers.

This is the exact reason 3 of the unix guys migrated to mac's at work.
 
1) POSIX. It's a command interface that you're familiar with. Going back and forth between Windows and everything else gets frustrating sometimes.

2) Battery life. It sucks when you go to do a simple job but it ends up taking a lot longer than you expected. Having your laptop die on you makes it even more frustrating.

3) Build quality. Pretty self explanatory. Nobody else makes them quite as well. Car mechanics buy the best tools and so should you.

4) Apple Store. While the build quality is very good, nothing is perfect. If you have a Dell that breaks, you have to send it in for repair. You're looking at at least two weeks of downtime. With a Mac, you just take it to the nearest Apple Store and usually get it back the very next day.

5) Trackpad/Expose/Mission Control/Spaces. You can't multitask on any Windows laptop like you can on a Macbook (Granted Lion has taken a step backwards here). When you're dealing with a smaller screen, multitasking options become very important. Gestures help within applications.

6) Compatibility. You can run the vast majority of operating systems on it. You "cannot" run OSX on a Windows laptop. I can have OSX, Windows 7 and Fedora all running at the same time locally.
 
The VM arguement (why use a Mac with VMs when you can use a PC) is a poor arguement against using a Mac. All of my developers here, Windows or Mac OS X, use virtual machines to complete their tasks.

I use a ThinkPad and a Macbook Pro Daily. I am partial to Mac OS due mostly to the OS and it's asthetics. It's simple, well thought out and it has power under the hood if I need to run any *nix apps natively. If I could run a stable build of Linux on my Lenovo, you can be rest asured it would replace windows (once again I'd virtualize it). Limitations there are in the Hybrid graphics solution (when using both diplay port and vga out) so for the meantime i'm a OS X and Windows 7 developer. I do like the advanced Features of Workstation 8, with migrating VMs to and from my ESX boxes, too bad fusion is a more basic app (still great though).

On a side note, A bigger trend I've seen has been to use solely laptops. I have three developers out of a few dozen that use desktops (and they chose Mac Mini server models).
 
Thanks for the info. I might eventually get a MBP or MBA to try however for my job Windows serves me well. It's never a bad idea to try different things though.
 
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