Which sound option would be best?

[Justin Cider]

Which sound option should I use,my X-Fi XtremeMusic pci or the onboard sound on my GA-EX58-UD5?I am running Vista 64-Bit which seems negate all the benefits as it seems X-fi driver support is lacking at best. I found the X-Fi was good but I wonder if the motherboard onboard would be better.I listen to a fair amount of music and gaming but I only have a 2.1 setup.Any opinions welcome and appreciated

 

[Nenu]

The X-Fi allows you to get EAX HD in games and the CMSS 3D function is good for surround sound with earphones.
If you are connected via digital, you probably wont tell any sound quality difference as both soundcards will be using your amps DAC.
Via analogue, the X-Fi probably has the better DAC so should sound better.
You can test this but bear in mind when comparing analogue to digital, using digital turns the PCs volume up full, louder sounds more impressive.
So to make the comparison easier, set the PCs volume to max and use the Hifi to change the sound level, that way its a fair audition.

 

[ourfpshero]

eep!
do not turn up the volumes to max!! on the x-fi set the wave to 60%, main volume to 40% more than that will 'overdrive' the card and create bass distortion. a lot of soundcards act this way and the rule of thumb is all volume sliders at 50%

 

[Odin75]

eep!
do not turn up the volumes to max!! on the x-fi set the wave to 60%, main volume to 40% more than that will 'overdrive' the card and create bass distortion. a lot of soundcards act this way and the rule of thumb is all volume sliders at 50%

I think this only applies while using analog, and using digital the sound should be set to max.
In any case, I think those numbers are quite drastic. That will only make him raise the volume in the amp a lot higher, which can introduce a buzzing sound, and we all know that is way more annoying than any distortion the soundcard might create.

But yes, I agree with Nenu. If you're using digital, use the X-Fi and benefit from EAX. If using analog, the X-Fi might still be the better choice. Not only because of EAX as well, but because of the better DAC.

 

[ashmedai]

If you're using digital or line-out connection, set the volume to max in software. This will avoid confusion about where it's being controlled and prevent potential distortion or loss of range from remapping the data between two digital spaces. It will also take advantage of the available signal range, e.g. over a S/PDIF coax, which will make the job easier on the amp that ends up doing the work and thereby reduce noise.

If you're using an amplified output into another amplifier, try to keep the sound card at 20-40% of its capacity. Sound cards typically have weak amps, so let the other amp (in active speakers, whatever) do most of the work. You will probably need to experiment a bit to find out what gives the least noise / distortion - and in this scenario, you should really be using the line out anyway! It also comes up with some portable media players if you're using a portable headphone amp since not all PMPs have a line out.

If you're using a sound card into headphones without further amplification, then you're stuck - set the volume to the level you need.

 

[phide]

do not turn up the volumes to max!! on the x-fi set the wave to 60%, main volume to 40% more than that will 'overdrive' the card and create bass distortion. a lot of soundcards act this way and the rule of thumb is all volume sliders at 50%

Where did you hear this? On the X-Fi in bit-perfect mode, the Wave output is 'disabled' and set to 100%. That is the optimal level.

 

[ourfpshero]

Where did you hear this? On the X-Fi in bit-perfect mode, the Wave output is 'disabled' and set to 100%. That is the optimal level.

i have read it about several different sound cards, but more importantly, i have lived it!
with my x-fi (and other x-fi's i have had), i like to give a lot of bass. V shaped eq and all that. i have noticed that bass will clip/distort at any volume if the volume sliders are too high, and you are using an outside volume control (amp or inline)
it was normal behavior to set the volume all the way up and use my gaming headset in line control and just think the cans were capable of zero bass. when i matured into 'real' headphones and had to use my k/b volume control i got the idea that something wasnt right. some experimenting, reading, and now i know. properly set up an x-fi can make cans like a dt770 pro absolutely pound with bass.

i noticed similar behavior with a xonar and audigy. of course this is all analog out. and for those who want the bass to full potential

 

[Nenu]

i have read it about several different sound cards, but more importantly, i have lived it!
with my x-fi (and other x-fi's i have had), i like to give a lot of bass. V shaped eq and all that. i have noticed that bass will clip/distort at any volume if the volume sliders are too high, and you are using an outside volume control (amp or inline)
it was normal behavior to set the volume all the way up and use my gaming headset in line control and just think the cans were capable of zero bass. when i matured into 'real' headphones and had to use my k/b volume control i got the idea that something wasnt right. some experimenting, reading, and now i know. properly set up an x-fi can make cans like a dt770 pro absolutely pound with bass.

i noticed similar behavior with a xonar and audigy. of course this is all analog out. and for those who want the bass to full potential

This may be a limitation of the amplifier you are using and/or the source being played has unnaturally high gain as in when you boost the bass a lot (as you already noticed).
For example the amp may clip at 'say' 1.0V peak to peak input whereas the soundcard + external inline amp may give out 2.0V peak to peak when maxed. (just an example to get the idea, not hard numbers)
The higher the input the amp can take, the less likely clipping will occur but it can still happen within the soundcard before it leaves the PC.
The clipping level may differ between soundcards so this could be be made worse by the soundcard, easily remedied by reducing the PCs volume levels as you have done.

My amp (Onkyo TX-SR875) doesnt clip/distort with all PC volume controls on maximum using an Auzentech Prelude analogue.

What hifi are you using and how is setup?
Its possible that you are having to boost the bass so much due to improper speaker placement.
Have you determined the best speaker placement for decent bass response?

 

[drleospaceman]

eep!
do not turn up the volumes to max!! on the x-fi set the wave to 60%, main volume to 40% more than that will 'overdrive' the card and create bass distortion. a lot of soundcards act this way and the rule of thumb is all volume sliders at 50%

[Citation Needed]

 

[Sycraft]

Ya I'm calling citation needed here too. This is not the behaviour I've noticed with my X-Fi. Now if you mess with EQs or something, maybe you run the risk of clipping things since you are then boosting frequencies. However with the EQ disabled, it isn't a problem. I have all outputs at 100%, except the main output. It I vary to whatever level I wish the final volume to be since I connect the car analogue to my amps. I've heard no distortion so far and I'm pretty good at noticing such things.

As loud as I've ever turned up the output, I've never seen any distortion. I've never had it to 100%, but only because I can't take volumes that loud, not because there was any distortion.

This is connected to some high end home audio amps and speakers (Rotel RB-1050 and SVS MTS-01s if you are interested).

What I imagine is causing your problem is EQ abuse. When you start doing extremely things with the EQ, you lose a lot of dynamic range on your amps. You'll notice that the EQ is noted in dB from -12 to +12. If you fully boost a frequency, +12, you have made it 4 times as loud effectively. This also means you've cut your total headroom to 25%. You'll have to lower your volume as a result, or you'll clip out.

Also remember, it takes a LOT of power from an amp to increase headroom. dB's are a logarithmic scale. So if you have a 10w amp that plays at a certain level and you want it to be 10dB louder, you now need a 100w amp. To go 20dB you need a 1000w amp.

This is why it is a better idea to use only cut EQ. Don't set anything over 0dB, only cut the frequencies you want less of. That way you don't lose any amplifier headroom.

Also, excessive bass is really hard on speakers not made to take it. You start going nuts on the bass and driving them hard at those frequencies, their voice coil exits the magnetic gap and distortion shoots up. This not only sounds bad, but can hurt the speaker. If you want loads of low frequency bass, you need a big sub with a large amp hooked to it. Lower frequencies require more power since you have to move more air, and since our ears are not so sensitive to those frequencies and need more absolute power to achieve the same relative volume level.

If you are a bass head, don't try and EQ small speakers that can't take it. Get a big sub, and have the X-Fi send the bass to that and just crank it up. The sub can handle that sort of thing, if it is designed properly.

As for headphones, you'll never get the same kind of bass out of those as you will out of large speakers, in part because you feel lower frequency sound as much as hear it, but again the answer is to get phones more suited to bass rather than abuse the EQ. I'd say get the Audio Technica ATH-A700 Art phones a spin. Those are the sealed ones, not the open ones. They've got bass that'll kick your skull in.

Finally, if you want to EQ for maximum slam in music, you don't want to do a V EQ. Ideally you want to get a better EQ than the X-Fi provides, a fully parametric EQ or something, but if you don't want to spend money on a plugin and/or your media player can't handle DX/VST effects plugins, you can still work with the built in EQ. What you want to do is actually CUT the 31 band a good bit and boost the 62 and 125 bands. The reason is that in music, the "slam" bass is mostly in the 60-100Hz range, and there is very rarely any musical content under 40Hz period. Any of that lower frequency sound is garbage (things like low frequency oscillation from an AC) and it just loads your headphones heavily without giving sound you want.

Regardless, the point of the long rant is that if you leave the EQ off, you can turn the X-Fi's volume all the way up.

 

[ourfpshero]

Ya I'm calling citation needed here too. This is not the behaviour I've noticed with my X-Fi. Now if you mess with EQs or something, maybe you run the risk of clipping things since you are then boosting frequencies. However with the EQ disabled, it isn't a problem. I have all outputs at 100%, except the main output. It I vary to whatever level I wish the final volume to be since I connect the car analogue to my amps. I've heard no distortion so far and I'm pretty good at noticing such things.

As loud as I've ever turned up the output, I've never seen any distortion. I've never had it to 100%, but only because I can't take volumes that loud, not because there was any distortion.

This is connected to some high end home audio amps and speakers (Rotel RB-1050 and SVS MTS-01s if you are interested).

What I imagine is causing your problem is EQ abuse. When you start doing extremely things with the EQ, you lose a lot of dynamic range on your amps. You'll notice that the EQ is noted in dB from -12 to +12. If you fully boost a frequency, +12, you have made it 4 times as loud effectively. This also means you've cut your total headroom to 25%. You'll have to lower your volume as a result, or you'll clip out.

Also remember, it takes a LOT of power from an amp to increase headroom. dB's are a logarithmic scale. So if you have a 10w amp that plays at a certain level and you want it to be 10dB louder, you now need a 100w amp. To go 20dB you need a 1000w amp.

This is why it is a better idea to use only cut EQ. Don't set anything over 0dB, only cut the frequencies you want less of. That way you don't lose any amplifier headroom.

Also, excessive bass is really hard on speakers not made to take it. You start going nuts on the bass and driving them hard at those frequencies, their voice coil exits the magnetic gap and distortion shoots up. This not only sounds bad, but can hurt the speaker. If you want loads of low frequency bass, you need a big sub with a large amp hooked to it. Lower frequencies require more power since you have to move more air, and since our ears are not so sensitive to those frequencies and need more absolute power to achieve the same relative volume level.

If you are a bass head, don't try and EQ small speakers that can't take it. Get a big sub, and have the X-Fi send the bass to that and just crank it up. The sub can handle that sort of thing, if it is designed properly.

As for headphones, you'll never get the same kind of bass out of those as you will out of large speakers, in part because you feel lower frequency sound as much as hear it, but again the answer is to get phones more suited to bass rather than abuse the EQ. I'd say get the Audio Technica ATH-A700 Art phones a spin. Those are the sealed ones, not the open ones. They've got bass that'll kick your skull in.

Finally, if you want to EQ for maximum slam in music, you don't want to do a V EQ. Ideally you want to get a better EQ than the X-Fi provides, a fully parametric EQ or something, but if you don't want to spend money on a plugin and/or your media player can't handle DX/VST effects plugins, you can still work with the built in EQ. What you want to do is actually CUT the 31 band a good bit and boost the 62 and 125 bands. The reason is that in music, the "slam" bass is mostly in the 60-100Hz range, and there is very rarely any musical content under 40Hz period. Any of that lower frequency sound is garbage (things like low frequency oscillation from an AC) and it just loads your headphones heavily without giving sound you want.

Regardless, the point of the long rant is that if you leave the EQ off, you can turn the X-Fi's volume all the way up.

i do use headphones, and i freely abuse the eq. this level lets me set the eq to whatever with no problem. a sound card, like most amps, does not run well at 100%. when using speakers i dont boost the bass (actually i lower it). i have tried so many headphones its not even funny also. i will try your eq ideas.

hmm- i just disabled everything, put all volumes at max, ran a bassy song (the veronicas 'take me on the floor'), and the bass still distorted. slightly , but its there. xenos amp to akg sextett k240 headphones.

 

[Sycraft]

Well I don't know a whole lot about your setup so I can't diagnose your problem, but what I can say is that with 100% output levels, I don't get any distortion at any frequency on my X-Fi. However I've got a 525-watt subwoofer, so that thing can handle bass for days.

My guess would be you are hitting limits of your amp or headphones or something. Everything has limits, and in terms of drivers, low frequencies are where it is easier to hit them.

Also in terms of clipping, you would probably get a uniform clipping across all frequencies if you actually clipped out the X-Fi. Reason is that you'd be clipping in the digital domain. The X-Fi processes everything digitally, and then converts it only when outputting it. So any clipping would be of the harsh, digital variety.

As a practical matter, I don't know that you can make the X-Fi clip. The DPS processes all data in a floating point format, which means that is has a great deal of dynamic range in the digital domain. It wouldn't be hard to then set up the system so that if the output exceeds what the DAC can take, you simply scale it back down in to the range it can. Thus you'd never actually send a clipped signal to the DAC.

I don't know that it does work this way internally, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Finally, not only do DACs run fine at 100%, they run the BEST at 100%. You get the most SNR and dynamic range from a DAC when you are using 100% of its output. To send a lower level signal to it is to have less bits of resolution.

Digital and analogue systems aren't the same. In a fixed-point digital system, there is no clipping, no distortion at all until you exceed 0dBFS. At that point, you clip hard, there is no way to go above it at all. In an analogue system, you don't have a hard point of clipping, you instead hit a range where THD beings to increase as the system functions more and more non-linear. In the case of a transistor amplifier, it is fairly fast so the onset of increased distortion to the point of total overload is rather small. In the case of a tube amplifier, it is much larger and in fact tubes are often operated in their non-linear range to give particular sound qualities (that's how most tube guitar amps work).

At any rate, operating a DAC at maximum levels (which is essentially what a soundcard is, a glorified DAC) is not a problem, it is ideal. Even operating an amplifier at maximum levels is no problem provided the amplifier is well designed and properly rated. The maximum rating of an amp should be the maximum level it can play back at with no significant increase in THD. In the case of my amp, it's 70 watts per channel. The amp has a THD of 0.03% if measured at 1 watt or at 70 watts. As such running it to max is no problem, it does not distort any more or anything like that. Pushing it past that max would be a problem, the amp would start to clip and if kept up it'd turn itself off to protect the speakers, but up to and including 70 watts, it's rated maximum, it has no problems.

 

[ourfpshero]

plz keep in mind that i am using the analogue out, not digital out. so the sound cards own amp comes in to play. and the distortion happens at all volume levels (when using an outside volume control like an amp). turn your x-fi volumes up to 100% (all of them, not just wave ) and try it. use your amp to control the volume.
and this isnt just x-fi related. the occasional amp might go 100% but most volume controls let one go past the point of distortion. i also have a xonar sound card- above 60% or so it gets wonky and sounds weird

besides the xenos i have a ld3 amp. its not the amps, its the soundcard. i have to agree with ashmedia on soundcard to amp volume levels

 

[ourfpshero]

sorry bout your thread op

 

[Nenu]

plz keep in mind that i am using the analogue out, not digital out. so the sound cards own amp comes in to play. and the distortion happens at all volume levels (when using an outside volume control like an amp). turn your x-fi volumes up to 100% (all of them, not just wave ) and try it. use your amp to control the volume.
and this isnt just x-fi related. the occasional amp might go 100% but most volume controls let one go past the point of distortion. i also have a xonar sound card- above 60% or so it gets wonky and sounds weird

besides the xenos i have a ld3 amp. its not the amps, its the soundcard. i have to agree with ashmedia on soundcard to amp volume levels

A few years ago, I had terrible distortion after a game crashed (cant remember which).
There must be another internal gain control in the sound driver that was changed by the game and no matter what I couldnt stop the distortion with any of the normal controls.
My solution was to uninstall the sound driver, remove all traces of it and start afresh.

About a year ago, I had the same thing happen with Grid or Dirt (cant remember which) but re-running the game remedied the problem, so that was an easy fix.

Food for thought.

 

[Sycraft]

My amp isn't the kind that you use to control volume. It has pots on it for that purpose but they are level trim pots. You set them per channel and leave them fixed for balance purposes. It's a high end amp, not a receiver.

The X-Fi, when hooked to such a device, is not functioning as an amplifier, it is functioning as a preamplifier. It doesn't have to provide any significant amount of current. The input impedance on a good amp is very high, in my case it is about 33,000 ohms. As such there is almost no load on the component driving it.

If you are driving headphones directly with the X-Fi then yes, you are putting load on its opamp and depending on the phones, maybe too much. However if you hook it in to an external amp, you are then using the X-Fi as a preamp and not loading it. You are operating it at line level which is high impedance, low current.

As a parallel example: Do DVD players have a volume control? Nope, they output at 100% all the time. The reason is that they don't drive anything. They operate at line level. The load is handled by a power amp later.

Also note Nenu, who is using an X-Fi set to 100% fed in to a receiver that he uses to vary the volume.

If you want to test it, get RMAA and loop your X-Fi back in to itself. You can get readings for THD and the like. You'll find that at 100% volume they are, in fact, extremely low.

 

[Nenu]

Can you try earphones connected directly to the soundcard without the amp?
If the distortion still exists you know its within the soundcard.

If the distortion goes, its probable the output from the soundcard is saturating the input to the amp, unfortunate.
The solution is to reduce the volume supplied to the amp from the soundcard.
It may be possible to lower the gain on the amps input if you have pots to adjust, that may work too.

 

[phide]

a sound card, like most amps, does not run well at 100%.

It's possible the X-Fi's DSP is implemented so poorly that there isn't sufficient internal gain control. As you're boosting frequency bands, the EQ itself may not be clipping, as it operates at a bit depth higher than the input, but it's being clipped on output. Lowering the Wave control may be sufficient in this case to keep the output from clipping. Sycraft's suggestion of reducing mids and high bands should keep this from happening, though you will lose a moderate amount of dynamic range (not any more than you would lose otherwise, and this is a preferable method anyway).

hmm- i just disabled everything, put all volumes at max, ran a bassy song (the veronicas 'take me on the floor'), and the bass still distorted.

Two things:

1) Not all volume controls should be set at maximum. The Wave and other digital controls should optimally be set to 100%. The Master or Main control is an analog control and should therefore be set to less than 100%. As a rule of thumb, the main output level fader is the only output fader you should set at less than 100%.

2) You may be experiencing the placebo effect in your testing. If you had some way to run the test blind, or to instead to some loopback testing and make mathematical comparisons, only then could you be certain your perceptions aren't subject to the placebo effect.

The DPS processes all data in a floating point format, which means that is has a great deal of dynamic range in the digital domain. It wouldn't be hard to then set up the system so that if the output exceeds what the DAC can take, you simply scale it back down in to the range it can. Thus you'd never actually send a clipped signal to the DAC.

If the X-Fi's DSP runs at 32-bit float or 48-bit fixed (either is possible, I reckon), then the DSPs themselves should be for all intents and purposes 'unclippable'. Without automatic gain control, however, the output busses can still be easily clipped. My guess is that's what's happening here.

 

[Sycraft]

The X-Fi's DSP is floating point according to their literature. As for the outputs, I don't know if they have automatic gain control or not. Wouldn't surprise me if they did, though, as you can manually turn on the opposite where if the signal is below 100%, it'll boost it to be 100%.

All in all it seems like a very well designed DSP. The drivers on the other hand... they leave something to be desired .

 

[Menelmarar]

Getting back on topic...

Which sound option should I use,my X-Fi XtremeMusic pci or the onboard sound on my GA-EX58-UD5?I am running Vista 64-Bit which seems negate all the benefits as it seems X-fi driver support is lacking at best. I found the X-Fi was good but I wonder if the motherboard onboard would be better.I listen to a fair amount of music and gaming but I only have a 2.1 setup.Any opinions welcome and appreciated

The X-Fi is going to have better sound quality. Make sure you get the latest drivers and software from soundblaster.com

Why do you think the driver support is "lacking"? I have had no problems with my X-Fi in either Vista x64 or Win7 x64. It has performed flawlessly and sounds great. I also use a 2.1 setup, a nice 2.1 setup, but still only 2.1. But some people do have problems, there are several on here who have posted about crackling and popping and such. If you are one of these, share the specifics, maybe someone can help you with them.

Microsoft did kill their Directsound3D API which Creative used for EAX with the launch of Vista, DX10 and the new driver model. That pretty much leaves OpenAL as the only gaming hardware accelerated API. Many games being released are already using this, and Creative's ALchemy ports the old Directsound API into OpenAL API. ALchemy is a bit buggy, and sometimes it's best to not use it. However; the X-Fi does still fully support acceleration and avanced sound features via OpenAL which is being used in many titles.

It's going to be far better than your onboard unless you are having some really specific problems.

 

[Odin75]

Oh wow, after reading all of this, I'm learning quite a few things myself. Very informative post.

I'm right now testing with an X-Fi XtremeMusic, hooked to an Onkyo TX-SR606 via analog in DIRECT mode. It indeed sounds less distorted when setting the master volume to 80~90%. Not sure how the newer models perform. I do know, than when using the Asus HDAV1.3 Dexule, I don't remember having that distortion at any volume level. So I can assume higher quality soundcards eliminate the problem.

However, when using a headset, the buzz/hizz coming from the headset starts to kick as soon as I raise the volume higher than 50% in the headset itself. This happens even if I'm not playing any sound at all. So I'd rather take the little distortion of raising the master volume to 100% in Windows, and not the buzz/hizz coming from raising the volume in the headset.

So I do agree, some equipments starts to distort way before others. So in my particular case, I'll keep using 100% for headsets, but start using 85% for the receiver from now on.

 

[Sycraft]

You can get distortion when you are going in to another device if the voltage that your soundcard outputs is too much for the device's inputs. Unfortunately, there is no absolute standard for voltages on line level devices. So some take higher or lower levels than others. That is likely what's happening with your receiver. It's max input voltage is a given level and the X-Fi can produce a little more than that at max output.

Your headset may be able to handle a much higher input level.

Regardless, there isn't a "right" level to set the output dial at. You set it at whatever your system calls for. Like in my case I usually have it between 20-30. I hook my X-Fi directly to my amps, so I use it to control the volume. As such I keep it pretty low to not blow my ears out. If it is hooked in to other gear, you set it to a level such that it works well.

However the other volume levels, like wave out, should all be maxed since that's all digital level control. Only reason to turn that down is if you are adjusting the relative levels of things, like you want your MIDI to be quieter than your WAV or something.

 

[Justin Cider]

Getting back on topic...
The X-Fi is going to have better sound quality. Make sure you get the latest drivers and software from soundblaster.com

Why do you think the driver support is "lacking"? I have had no problems with my X-Fi in either Vista x64 or Win7 x64. It has performed flawlessly and sounds great. I also use a 2.1 setup, a nice 2.1 setup, but still only 2.1. But some people do have problems, there are several on here who have posted about crackling and popping and such. If you are one of these, share the specifics, maybe someone can help you with them.

Microsoft did kill their Directsound3D API which Creative used for EAX with the launch of Vista, DX10 and the new driver model. That pretty much leaves OpenAL as the only gaming hardware accelerated API. Many games being released are already using this, and Creative's ALchemy ports the old Directsound API into OpenAL API. ALchemy is a bit buggy, and sometimes it's best to not use it. However; the X-Fi does still fully support acceleration and avanced sound features via OpenAL which is being used in many titles.

It's going to be far better than your onboard unless you are having some really specific problems.

Thanks for the info,that answer was more along the line of what I was looking for,but at least it sparked a good discussion