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ginkilla

Weaksauce
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
81
Greeting [H] audiophiles,

Lemme explain in the least words possible, I understand your time is important.

Some background first:

I purchased the Z-5500 surround sound set from amazon and felt that it was not a worthy investment as the sound quality was subpar. I sent them back and will be receiving a refund soon. I recently constructed a new PC and am interested in doing some audio development as a hobby.

Now I am looking for a quality audio set, and am having some trouble deciding which is why I am here requesting your advice.

Also, because of my fantastic friend who bought a new audio interface (MOTU mk3 ultra-lite), I purchased his old M-AUDIO Delta 1010 audio interface.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html
Now, seeing as this is a very high quality interface, I would like to take advantage of what it offers.

I am interested in possibly placing my money into a high quality headphone set, but am clueless in this sector. My friend recommended this 2.1 set
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/594401-REG/Genelec_6010AWM_STEREOPAK_6010_StereoPak_Nearfield_Speaker.html
Now, this is about the limit I can go, my expendable income is about finished already... and it would be preferable not to spend so much. However, I am entertaining the idea simply because it MAY be an investment well made if the audio is that good. Furthermore, without the sub it would be reduced to $600 which, while not cheap by any stretch of the imagination is more feasable. Would cutting out the sub ruin the setup?

What other speakers could take advantage of my new Delta 1010?

I am also considering headphones but only those with supreme comfort...

Thank you all very much and I will genuinely appreciate any advice you give me. :D
 
BH Photo is nice, but hardly where I'd look to spend $1200 on 2.1 speakers.

Allocating focus between speakers and headphones is going to be a big consideration. If you have that kind of money to spend and would be using headphones a significant part of the time, I would take a hard look at some Stax Lambdas. You can get these plus a voltage transformer for about $400-600 and hook them up to the outputs of a speaker amp (presumably used). There are other options in the $100-400 range which are really good...Denon D2000s for example.

For the speakers, are we looking strictly at 2.1 or also at surround options since the interface supports that? With your budget, you have a lot of options ranging from a pretty extreme 2.1 setup to a solid surround setup, and spilling over to some extent between headphones and speakers. If you want surround, this is a good start...add a really solid sub and spend the rest on headphones and you have a very nice setup. But you have enough money that a lot of this comes down to preferences instead of there being a short list of easy answers like for a $100-200 build.

Used options for both headphones and speakers are a really good thing to look at. The risk is minimal if you take precautions to confirm the seller's reputation, and most quality audio gear does not wear out quickly if it has been taken care of well.
 
Out of curiousity, why do you have this distrust of B&H? Or are the Genelec 6010 themselves something you don't like?

I could use headphones all of the time, providing they are comfortable enough.

I'm not going to purchase both, it's gonna be either speakers or headphones. Headphones are probably the cheaper options in this scenario, and as I mentioned, I am not looking to essentially spend all $1200, I said that is the MOST I could consider, in the form of an "investment", something that will really LAST.
I hope you understand what I mean...

I'm open minded with other options aside from 2.1... Surround is not neccessary, really, as I would far prefer higher quality 2.1 than shitty 5.1 like the Z5500 I tried out.

Any links for those used items you mentioned, perhaps personal favorites?

Thanks!
 
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ginkilla said:
Out of curiousity, why do you have this distrust of B&H?
Click to expand...

I don't. It's just not their main line of business, so for a large budget it's likely you could do better elsewhere. I don't know the specific item in question intimately - although the fact that it only has a 3" midwoofer does seem rather shrimpy. Based on the specs, I doubt it would be hard to beat them even on a significantly lower budget.

ginkilla said:
I could use headphones all of the time, providing they are comfortable enough.
Click to expand...

Stax would be great then. See here for an example. I'm not sure if these specific ones are still available, but Stax Lambdas & related amps / transformers / adapters come up fairly regularly on Head-Fi.

I think they're comfortable, but opinions will vary a bit as with any headphones. The main complaint is that they're ugly, and that usually from people who haven't heard them yet.

Stax use an electrostatic drive instead of the standard dynamic topology. How this works is that there are two electrode plates with a membrane between them. The electrodes are driven at a high voltage so that it can drive the entire membrane at once, giving extreme precision compared to dynamic headphones. The result is that the headphones have unsurpassed clarity and they can reach both very high and very low frequencies. This can also be a drawback...bad sources will show up very clearly. As a result I've more or less stopped listening to a few bands I used to like before I heard just how badly mastered their CDs were.

More generally, good headphones will give much better results than if you spent a similar budget on speakers. Speakers have to excite a much larger volume of air, and the result is also degraded by the room's acoustics.
 
Yes, I had similar thoughts in regards to headphone vs. speaker.

So, you own this firms "Stax Lambdas"? What other equipment do you, personally, utilize?

Acoustics are not something I was concerned with, seeing as the Genelecs I was looking at are nearfield monitors, meaning there is no need to set up in special configuration. Another reason I don't desire a surround sound system. I have no need to fill a large room with air, as my system is located in my not so large living space.

This electrostatic drive technology sounds intriguing... Thank you for such a thorough explanation.
 
I dabble a lot...Stax, Beyers, Grados, Audio Technicas, Sonys, and about three different earbuds & IEMs. Each has different strengths, really - I was gushing about the Sony V6s just last night, which have some really awesome interactions with my tube amp. I also use ELT525 monitors with a sub, have some Polk sats that I hook up occasionally in another room. Amps by Little Dot, NAD, Onkyo, iBasso, and a mini^3 which I should really finish soldering one of these days. An E-MU 0404 USB which makes a pretty solid DAC once you tweak its settings. And I worked my way up to these through the usual Altec Lansings and Logitechs before accidentally getting exposed to much better.

For that matter, is there a specific focus to your listening habits? Types of music, emphasis on movies, et cetera?
 
you intimidate me man!

Now that's a lot of gear... say you don't happen to be a member of gearslutz?

Music... Electronic mostly, I also enjoy Classical (Bach, Andrea Bocelli, Mozart). Some hip-hop, not so much though. I very much like movies too.
 
btw the reason I was interested in the Genelec's was because they won MIPA awards 2008 nearfield monitor award... which I need because of I lack specialized acoustics.
 
Just Head-Fi...which is already more than enough strain on the wallet. Especially the FS/FT section.

Electrostatic headphones are absolutely transcendent for things with a lot of detail and dynamic range like classical music. It really brings out nuances that are completely lost on other equipment and helps to make the different sections in an orchestra stand out separately.

For the more bassy hip-hop and for some movie effects, you won't get the oomph out of open headphones - including most Stax models - which is easier to get in closed headphones. Well, there is one model of closed Stax, but those are about $2000 for the headphones alone. Unless you can afford those and get both, it becomes an oomph vs. clarity tradeoff...which I settled by having a lot of different headphones.

If you were going to get a second pair to complement the Stax, I would suggest Beyers or maybe Denons.

ginkilla said:
btw the reason I was interested in the Genelec's was because they won MIPA awards 2008 nearfield monitor award...
Click to expand...

Yeah those tend to largely ignore budget considerations, and with the "nearfield" category they probably also include much smaller speakers than I could easily put on my desk. Then again, I have a big desk.
 
So you vouch for these Stax being the absolute best headphones around?

They seem like a relatively unknown company, and after checking out their website my opinion is that it is poorly designed/maintained...
What made you such a believer?
 
I'm still thinking maybe speakers would be nicer... Headphones feel somewhat cramped to me.

The Genelec 6010 are actually the smallest nearfield ACTIVE monitors available. I also really like their design, but that is not an overriding factor.

I must say though... the Stax look pretty bad in terms of aesthetic appeal.
 
Here, take this. :D

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f113/stax-thread-new-223263/

You can also find The Stax Thread by going here (Summit-Fi, i.e. the "price is no object" subforum on Head-Fi).

Not the absolute best - but electrostatics pretty much are, and very few people other than Stax make them. The next nearest would probably be the ring magnet design Sennheiser is using in the HD800s...for $1400 before you buy an amplifier to go with them. And there are special cases like the Sony R10...which will run you many thousands of dollars after you actually manage to find someone willing to sell theirs. For higher budgets, taste also becomes a major factor. Once you get beyond headphones that have serious issues, there is no "perfect" headphone, so different people will have different ideals. But electrostatics are a clear outlier thanks to the technical superiority of the design.

Something like Lambda SR303s will also give you an appreciable portion of the power of their higher-end models. If you check out that thread, some of the people who have tried the Omegas and other higher-end electrostatics still end up preferring and going back to one of the Lambda models. And spending $500ish to get most of the results of a $5000ish headphone rig can be a very tempting proposition.

Also, the looks grow on you after you've heard them. Very quickly.

ginkilla said:
I'm still thinking maybe speakers would be nicer... Headphones feel somewhat cramped to me.

The Genelec 6010 are actually the smallest nearfield ACTIVE monitors available. I also really like their design, but that is not an overriding factor.
Click to expand...

For speakers, do they need to be small? You'll get better results with somewhat larger ones, and a subwoofer isn't exactly small either. Actually if you have the room, tower speakers would be pretty sweet.

There are also combinations of the above well under your max budget, e.g. get headphones and fall back to Audioengine A2s for the speakers.
 
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I got enough room for tower speakers but I don't NEED them to be huge, a moderate size is nice :)

And no, I don't need them to be small, they are simply the cheapest Genelec monitors... What speaker setup would you recommend instead?
 
You have an impressive budget for computer speakers. I just spent $360 upgrading my Logitech Z-5300 set to the Audioengine A5 / E-MU 0404 USB and I couldn't be happier... well maybe a little... I'm gonna want an 8'' sub eventually.

While you do have that awesome sound card setup in waiting, taking full advantage of it will also depend on what you're playing through it. If your music collection is just MP3s rather than lossless files, spending a grand on speakers could end up amounting to a lot of overkill. It's also worth noting video game music/effects is compressed as well. Basically I'm suggesting you consider the necessity to spending your maximum budget. Depending on your hearing, you may have serious issues with diminishing returns.
 
Gotcha, thanks for the input!

I have quite a few lossless audio files available to me, not just mp3 but thank you for your concern.

And I don't plan on spending my maximum budget, not unless I am convince to buy those sexy Genelec's. :D
 
For mid to low frequencies, the area and displacement of the driver are extremely important in determining how easily it can create sound waves with low distortion at useful amplitudes. Cabinet size has a similar effect because the wave produced has two sides...for a larger cabinet, it becomes much easier to control the resonance modes involved and again it improves the speaker's ability to handle lower frequencies well.

This doesn't mean small speakers always suck, it just means that they're fighting a seriously uphill battle. Nor are towers automatically best...but they have a much easier time doing much better.

For those Genelecs, the 6010A sats themselves are only $300 for a pair. The sub, which is also pretty small, is about $600 separately. How this adds up to $1200...well, I'm not sure. I would at the least get the sats separately and then evaluate your sub options. They also appear to be active, meaning you retain no control over your amp stage (but don't have to buy one separately either). A lot of reviews say they sound good for their size, and you're paying extra for them to be smaller...if you don't need small speakers, this sounds like a bad deal. If you look at gearslutz, you see 6010As almost entirely mentioned in "best, smallest" threads. "Best, fits on my desk" is probably what you really need and will probably sound better.

The ELT525s I mentioned are nice for music, especially for the budget. The tower version is improved as one would expect but more help for a home theater (i.e. couch listening) than nearfield (i.e. desk listening).

If you want to go all-in for the speakers, Ascend Acoustics or Usher would be nice. Unfortunately both would leave you a bit tight for the sub & amp...actually, I think the Usher would be a bit out of reach unless you find some used.
 
I really don't wanna muck around with the amp so active is pretty much a must for whatever monitors I purchase.

Have you ever heard of Tannoy Actives? My friend has a set way back from 1999, still sound great today. Granted, they did cost $700 each.
 
Nope, although I found a few places carrying them easily enough.

I collect headphones, not speakers. Speakers take up too much room for that. :(
 
damn, the Genelec ended up being beaten by the Focal CMS-50 in the MIPA awards 2009..!

But they are $300 more w/o a sub.
 
I really wouldn't take those to be particularly definitive or informative.
 
You mean the MIPA awards? What, you don't trust the opinion of all the top audio enthusiast publications coming together and selecting the best audio equipment? figures.
 
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ginkilla said:
Acoustics are not something I was concerned with, seeing as the Genelecs I was looking at are nearfield monitors, meaning there is no need to set up in special configuration.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you mean by this. There are still a fair number of acoustical/placement considerations to take into account no matter how good the speaker. Studio monitors are typically designed to be as linear as possible, but only when used in the right environment (ideally an anechoic chamber). Not to mention the fact linearity is not always particularly desirable.

ginkilla said:
btw the reason I was interested in the Genelec's was because they won MIPA awards 2008 nearfield monitor award... which I need because of I lack specialized acoustics.
Click to expand...
Again, I don't know how this pertains to the Genelecs being 'better' than, say, Audioengine's A2s for what you'll be using these speakers for. Engineers have "need" of studio monitors -- not consumers.

ginkilla said:
say you don't happen to be a member of gearslutz?
Click to expand...
You'd do well to stay as far away from Gearslutz as humanly possible. There are very few opinions there that should be trusted.

ashmedai said:
For those Genelecs, the 6010A sats themselves are only $300 for a pair.
Click to expand...
That's each ;)

ginkilla said:
What, you don't trust the opinion of all the top audio enthusiast publications coming together and selecting the best audio equipment? figures.
Click to expand...
Most audio journalists are in no way qualified to evaluate anything other than the color of their own socks. The large majority of them still believe that vinyl records are vastly superior to CDs and that sighted listening is a perfectly objective way to perform evaluations. You really don't want to place any faith in anyone who listens to audio equipment with their eyeballs.

If you want to evaluate a piece of audio equipment the right way, you find a way to audition it against other equipment in a double-blind environment. Very few dealers are equipped to handle this, but they do exist. Otherwise, it's a total leap of faith.

Depending on where you're at, you may be able to find a dozen pro audio dealers that will let you audition the Genelecs.
 
ginkilla said:
I recently constructed a new PC and am interested in doing some audio development as a hobby.

/snip/

Furthermore, without the sub it would be reduced to $600 which, while not cheap by any stretch of the imagination is more feasable. Would cutting out the sub ruin the setup?

What other speakers could take advantage of my new Delta 1010?
Click to expand...

Most of my post count has been in the Audio forum with the same message... If your're serious about doing some music production then a decent set of studio monitors is where you need to go. You do not need a subwoofer at all unless you're in a treated room - bass traps, not egg cartons.

I'd take your budget and get a nice 2.0 setup and still have some money left over for beer. Perhaps some Wharfdales or KRK's ( I run some first gen KRK Rokit 8's, No sub.) Starting out early, your ears are going to recognize an immediate difference in sound quality. Understanding your monitors is where a great mix comes from. I'm working on treating my home studio right now but I'm still working within the "golden triangle" and with the 38% rule. A quick google search will explain those to you.

I won't say much on headphones, I run some Sennheiser HD280 that I really enjoy but I use the KRK's religiously.

If you're just looking for loud and decent quality, Ignore everything I just said :p

Just my two cents.
 
If you want a good active pair, I would look into Quads or Dynaudio. Quad 12L and Dynaudio BM6A are pretty much amazing for an active pair.

Are you really sure you don't want passives? I could show you some that would blow you away... just be ready to spend $500 on the bookshelves (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84544) and about $200 give or take $100 on an amp then another $200-$600 on a subwoofer.

For a subwoofer, check this one out: http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549385026/energy-s10-3?s_c=site_search

CaliGirl sent me the link. Seems to me like it's literally, without exaggeration, the best bang for the buck subwoofer out there at this point. If I hadn't just spent $550 on speakers and amps last night, I would buy two of these for a .2 addition on my TV setup.
 
phide said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this. There are still a fair number of acoustical/placement considerations to take into account no matter how good the speaker. Studio monitors are typically designed to be as linear as possible, but only when used in the right environment (ideally an anechoic chamber). Not to mention the fact linearity is not always particularly desirable.


Again, I don't know how this pertains to the Genelecs being 'better' than, say, Audioengine's A2s for what you'll be using these speakers for. Engineers have "need" of studio monitors -- not consumers.


You'd do well to stay as far away from Gearslutz as humanly possible. There are very few opinions there that should be trusted.


That's each ;)


Most audio journalists are in no way qualified to evaluate anything other than the color of their own socks. The large majority of them still believe that vinyl records are vastly superior to CDs and that sighted listening is a perfectly objective way to perform evaluations. You really don't want to place any faith in anyone who listens to audio equipment with their eyeballs.

If you want to evaluate a piece of audio equipment the right way, you find a way to audition it against other equipment in a double-blind environment. Very few dealers are equipped to handle this, but they do exist. Otherwise, it's a total leap of faith.

Depending on where you're at, you may be able to find a dozen pro audio dealers that will let you audition the Genelecs.
Click to expand...

I'm going to head over to the local guitar center to check some possible items out today.

Also, while it's nice that you pointed out that they are $300 each, I really don't think was pertinent. A nice PM would have done fine instead of trying to make people appear a fool. I doubt that was your intention but nonetheless pointing out ones small mistakes, especially as trivial as that is wholly unneccessary.

Oh and wavewerx, thanks for your comment but my friend who's been doing audio production for quite some time highly advises me against KRK speakers. He doesn't trust their quality or something, but I do trust his advice :eek:

And if you read some of my previous posts, you would have noticed that I indeed prefer quality over quantity. I believe that, as a matter of fact, I mentioned this more than once.

Alai, thanks for your input but but the subwoofer you posted seemes to be geared toward home-theatre set ups, which I am not particularly interested in.

Thanks for all the valuable advice though everyone. Audio is clearly a very personal business :)
 
Wow... well I just visited the Mark & Daniel site (after reading the post about the maximus mini for sale) and the site attempted to run a highjacking script via HTML!

A bit of a turn off...
 
ginkilla said:
I doubt that was your intention but nonetheless pointing out ones small mistakes, especially as trivial as that is wholly unnecessary.
Click to expand...
He was confused as to why two satellites plus the sub equaled out to $1,200. The reason why he was confused is because he thought they were $300 a pair, rather than $300 a piece. So, I merely mentioned -- quite politely, it seemed -- that the price was for each unit rather than for the pair. No big deal.

As for Guitar Center, did you call your local one and check with them as to whether they stock Genelecs? I don't frequent Guitar Centers that much, but even here in L.A., Genelecs are rarely stocked.

ginkilla said:
Oh and wavewerx, thanks for your comment but my friend who's been doing audio production for quite some time highly advises me against KRK speakers. He doesn't trust their quality or something, but I do trust his advice
Click to expand...
I've mixed on KRK's VXT and Exposé line in the past. Excellent, excellent monitors for the price, and I've heard nothing negative about their durability.
 
ashmedai said:
Avira showed some sort of virus when I tried to load it...o_O
Click to expand...

Lol? What the heck... I don't notice anything when I load it. I got NOD32.

You went to this website? http://www.mark-daniel.com/Default.asp

As for the sub, it might be "geared" towards HT setups, but so are, technically, the SVS subs... they are still amazing subs.

Also, I have never heard complaints about KRK before, even from my friend who runs his own studio.
 
phide said:
He was confused as to why two satellites plus the sub equaled out to $1,200. The reason why he was confused is because he thought they were $300 a pair, rather than $300 a piece. So, I merely mentioned -- quite politely, it seemed -- that the price was for each unit rather than for the pair. No big deal.
Click to expand...

Yep, I just assumed it was $/pair since that's a little more usual. Makes sense now.

$600/pair for mini monitors is an even worse deal IMO...if you don't need super small speakers, don't pay extra for them to be super small. Your sound quality will thank you.

Alai said:
Lol? What the heck... I don't notice anything when I load it. I got NOD32.

You went to this website? http://www.mark-daniel.com/Default.asp
Click to expand...

Yep. I forgot to write down the specific thing it found, and I can't get it again now since my AV has a policy in place for it (i.e. block access).

No clue what's up with that.
 
Are you sure your computer isn't part of some zombie network now, since it's the only one that didn't catch it?
 
phide said:
He was confused as to why two satellites plus the sub equaled out to $1,200. The reason why he was confused is because he thought they were $300 a pair, rather than $300 a piece. So, I merely mentioned -- quite politely, it seemed -- that the price was for each unit rather than for the pair. No big deal.

As for Guitar Center, did you call your local one and check with them as to whether they stock Genelecs? I don't frequent Guitar Centers that much, but even here in L.A., Genelecs are rarely stocked.


I've mixed on KRK's VXT and Exposé line in the past. Excellent, excellent monitors for the price, and I've heard nothing negative about their durability.
Click to expand...

I'll take that into account.
 
Yeah, there's such a thing as false positives, but still worthwhile to be cautious. Big websites can still be hacked and virused up. Happened with geeks in recent memory.
 
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