What LCD has the blackest blacks? People that have used/returned a lot of them plz

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Limp Gawd
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So if you have seen many different LCDs, which one has the best blacks for dark games? I would really like to get info from Image Quality Nazis that have tried and returned multiple LCDs.

I don't want that to sound rude but in my experience with LCDs, most people will give you absolutely glowing reviews of their LCDs even if they are sub par. Around 2003 I had a friend talk about how his awesome new LCD that had "absolutely no ghosting at all" turns out he had a 25 ms one and it looked like total ass in games. He was just like "never noticed that".

I have had the same thing happen year after year, people get their first LCD and give you glowing reviews of its "perfect" colors and then you go to their house and they have bright grey/blue blacks or bad banding.

Still debating returning this Samsung 940wb while I still have the full refund available.

So far the only thing that I don't like about it is that the blacks aren't really black enough for extremely dark games like Splinter Cell of the Thief series. Using MagicBright and setting it to Text mode does help quite a bit though. Other than that it is perfect.

Thanks :)
 
Well, I can tell you from experience that the L90D+, the VX2025WM and the FDP2185W will not win your heart when it comes to black levels.

I think the black issue is just inherent to the LCD technology. I am not too picky when it comes to computer monitors, but when I shopped around for a new TV, black levels of the LCD made me tip the balance towards plasma :/

Unfortunately, there isn't any other FDP technology available for computer monitors :/
 
deanx0r said:
Well, I can tell you from experience that the L90D+, the VX2025WM and the FDP2185W will not win your heart when it comes to black levels.

I think the black issue is just inherent to the LCD technology. I am not too picky when it comes to computer monitors, but when I shopped around for a new TV, black levels of the LCD made me tip the balance towards plasma :/

Unfortunately, there isn't any other FDP technology available for computer monitors :/
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Yeah, that slim CRT technology I read about years ago sounded great, I was holding out for it, then nothing :(

Thanks for the reply.
 
Stay away from LCD's if you are that picky :p I have not had as much experience as some on here with LCD monitors but I have owned a Spectre 20.1, Dell 2007, 2405, 2407, and Gateway 2185. The blacks on all of theses monitors in my experience has been nothing special.

My favorite of the bunch was the gateway which still had bad banding with gradients in photoshop. I just recently got rid of the last of my LCD's because I work as a free lance graphics designer and they just don't have an accurate enough representation of the colors you are working with. Given, even though a CRT still won't have an accurate representation of the colors compared to when they hit press... it will be closer.

If you are looking to game, get yourself a nice CRT and tweak it to perfection.
 
TBH, P-MVA panels with no overdrive or AMA technology have the best image quality and black levels being that image quality isn't sacrificed for speed.
 
Toshiba and Canon announced that SED production (see this article) would not finally start before July 2007. The release date of the first monitors is postponed to the fourth quarter, one year later than expected.

Manufacturers explain this choice by the necessity to rationalise production costs to reduce the existing gap between SED and existing technologies (plasma, LCD).

Even more problematic, if Canon initially was planning on producing SED panels for PC, they have stopped this project. We don't know if economical or technological reasons have motivated this choice.
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Well, that sucks for SED, but LED might see the light by the end of the year.
http://www.behardware.com/html/news/cat22/page5.html#8035
 
Could you provide some links to said nice CRTs? My impression is that there aren't many availible unless you want to play Ebay roulette and hope you get a good one.
 
I have a 22" Mitsubishi 2070b for sale if you are interested.
Local pick up only because it'll cost more to shit that sucker than what I am trying to sell it for :p
 
Shottah_king said:
TBH, P-MVA panels with no overdrive or AMA technology have the best image quality and black levels being that image quality isn't sacrificed for speed.
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Cool, any specific models?
 
The blacks on my lcd are true black. No light at all on the NEC 20WMGX2. Blacker than black.

As good, if not better than most CRTs.
 
deanx0r said:
I have a 22" Mitsubishi 2070b for sale if you are interested.
Local pick up only because it'll cost more to shit that sucker than what I am trying to sell it for :p
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Same here. I have a NEC FE990 19".
 
I just returned a VX2025WM because I couldn't stand the poor black reproduction, that and I noticed a dead pixel just above center but that was more like the straw that broke the camel's back. If P-MVA panels are supposed to have the best blacks, the outlook doesn't look good at all.
 
I realize that a lot of LCDs have ghosting issues...my brand new VX2025WM has some ghosting issues but I expected that.

That being said, some people are WAY too picky when it comes to this. Honestly, it's a trade off. Go ahead and lug around your 90lbs CRT monitor to get a perfect image. Or, go with an LCD, deal with the lighter weight, the better looks, but deal with some (most cases little) ghosting that occurs. In regards to color issues, some monitors look great out of the box, some need to be tweaked. These are the kinds of things you have to way when deciding on a monitor.
 
If I were hardcore gaming theres no way I would have an lcd. Ghosting/blur/whatever you want to call it is simply unavoidable and horrible to game with. Likewise, graphic *professionals* should not get an lcd.
All that being said an lcd simply cannot be beat for a normal user who does little gaming. Not having my hulking crt on my desk really makes a difference. People will tell you that is meaningless, I myself once thought the same thing, but actually having an lcd changed my perspective.
 
Liver said:
The blacks on my lcd are true black. No light at all on the NEC 20WMGX2. Blacker than black.

As good, if not better than most CRTs.
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*cough* bullshit *cough* :cool:
 
The Viewsonic VX2025WM is not a P-MVA panel. The Gateway 2185 is. 1000:1 contrast ratio without overdrive.

The NEC achieves its contrast through overdrive, and having a glossy coating helps, too.

I am also most interested in which panel has the best blacks. Right now, it seems its between the 2185 and the NEC. I'd like to hear more feedback on these monitors.
 
The NEC 20WMGX2 is the best LCD I've seen as far as black level. I've used a multitude of other popular LCDs (Dell 17-24", Apple's Cinema Displays, Gateway, and some others that I can't remember), and the NEC blows all of them away. I haven't seen the newer Dell's, but it doesn't sound like they'd suit you very well at all.

There is one thing. On the NEC if you sit close it won't be a problem, but if you don't, the glossy screen could potentially be problematic for you as it tends to make it look gray when it really isn't. Don't let the glossy screen affect your opinion too much though, as most of the time you won't even notice it and its not really bothersome.

I recently compared it to my CRT HDTV and found that overall the black levels and colors were quite close. I tried getting pictures but they didn't turn out well as the camera would either black out too much (can't even see the silver bezel of the TV or the monitor) or else would pick up stuff on the TV screen that you couldn't see when watching it.

The NEC is top notch, but if you're extremely picky (as in giving serious consideration into spending 2 grand to get a professional level 20") then I'd say wait for newer technology or for LCDs to improve more.
 
Scyles said:
The Viewsonic VX2025WM is not a P-MVA panel. The Gateway 2185 is. 1000:1 contrast ratio without overdrive.

The NEC achieves its contrast through overdrive, and having a glossy coating helps, too.

I am also most interested in which panel has the best blacks. Right now, it seems its between the 2185 and the NEC. I'd like to hear more feedback on these monitors.
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The Viewsonic VX2025WM is a P-MVA panel. The Gateway is an S-PVA. They are both based on VA technology though. Also, contrast is not achieved through overdrive, overdrive is used to get better response times. The NEC gets its high contrast from its dynamic backlight. If you have the dynamic backlight set to off then the panel does not actually have very good contrast.

In my experience the NEC has blacks just like any other ips based panel unless the advanced dv mode is enabled. When enabled it reduces brightness to 0 on an all black screen resulting in a much more pleasing result than 22% brightness (which is what I kept mine at while I had it).
 
Tutelary said:
Likewise, graphic *professionals* should not get an lcd.
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That's funny because I work for a very high end color correction company and we use LCD's on corrections dealing with fractions of a percent......but apparently you know better than the color correction industry.
 
Blown 89 said:
That's funny because I work for a very high end color correction company and we use LCD's on corrections dealing with fractions of a percent......but apparently you know better than the color correction industry.
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apparently. As anyone knows graphics professionals use crts, nimrod. the color gamut presented by an lcd is substandard. You must either A)be using screens with new led backlights B) be an idiot.
 
Tutelary said:
apparently. As anyone knows graphics professionals use crts, nimrod. the color gamut presented by an lcd is substandard. You must either A)be using screens with new led backlights B) be an idiot.
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Does calling me a nimrod and an idiot somehow add to the credibility of your argument?

I hate to break it to you but calling me a nimrod and an idiot doesn't change the fact that LCD technology is catching up and the graphic arts community is already making the switch.....unless the ACD's on our desks are a figment of my imagination.
 
I'm with Blown 89 on this.

I'm a "graphic professional" and I used LCDs when I was in school. Most of the design agencies I've seen have already switched to LCDs. Furthermore, I attended a workshop by a colour specialist wherein he vouched for LCD technology. Considering he does independent colour research and product testing for some very big names in the industry, I tend to believe him. Of course there are plenty of lousy LCDs for colour reproduction.You just gotta open your wallet extra wide if you want quality.

Tutelary, what are you basing your statement on? While true several years ago, LCD technology has improved drastically. These days, "graphic professionals" using CRTs exclusively is nothing more than a myth.
 
During a tour of Cyan Worlds (makers of the Myst series of games), I noticed that LCD's were at every workstation there. I don't remember seeing a single CRT, but I could be wrong. All I remember are nice, big LCD's.

I know of another CG artist, and she loves her LCD (not sure of what brand it is). I am sure that the LCD is being adopted by the graphics segment of the market. The LCD of today is nothing like the LCD of old. When I first investigated LCD's a few years ago, I thought they looked nice, but the performance (in gaming) was pure crud.

I was very hesitant in getting an LCD as I love to game and I want performance. Well, Coldtronius started the VX2025wm thread and now I own one. It performs just fine for me, but then I do not have a framerate of 10,000. If it plays smoothly and looks right, then I am happy.

We play Until Uru (the public release of the server/client Uru Live package) all the time. Much of the game is comprised of dark areas, and it looks beautiful on the VX2025wm. Fast paced action in Quake 3 and 4 works just fine too. I am no graphic artist, but a good LCD is not too hard to find today. Just look for something that fits what you are trying to do...
 
Well, I just picked up a Samsung 215T, for the first day or so, I ran it next to my old(now retired) 17" Trinitron. Black levels weren't noticibly different, and the colors looked a little more accurate on the LCD. That might have something to do with being run on DVI vs. Analog for the CRT though.

And yeah, a few years back, no graphic designer would use an LCD due to poor color reproduction/etc, but nowadays, the tech has really caught up, and combined with the freed up desk space, and the reasonable prices of LCD's, a lot of graphics folks are using LCD's and taking the(at most on a good set) <1% color hit.
 
Blown 89 said:
LCD technology is catching up and the graphic arts community is already making the switch
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I'd been using Sony 22"ers and Mitsu 2060u monitors, and considering the price of replacing these (maybe $600+ each new, prolly more), I realized the Westinghouse LVM-37w3 was a better choice (with a 5-yr ext warr) at just double the price of one of these 22" CRTs.

Adjusting from 2048x1536 to 1920x1080 took some time, though. But it's also an HDTV tv.

But with having 4 computers simul. hooked-up to it at once, it's definitely worth its cost. Cheaper than CRTs.

But visually, I'd choose it over any of my previous monitors any day.

I would expect my 37" W to be at the top of an LCD list, but I certainly don't have any complaints.

I'll never understand the current arguments against LCDs. If black blacks are an issue, well, this LCD monitor wins that black contest against my 22" CRTs.

(I just mention all of this so that if someone wants to go "well, it's a $1,300 LCD, it better be good" isn't all that valid when considering the price points of good CRTs... a good new CRT is going to set you back $600+ easily, mebbe $1K, and used off Ebay is about $200 each, and that'll last maybe two yrs (from my experience) before you will want to replace it... I dunno about $150 LCDs, but then again, I dunno about $90 CRTs either)

If my W ever needs service and I have to break out the 22" CRT again, I know I will definitely be groaning...
 
My viewsonic 2025wm has pretty good blacks and great color after tweaking settings. I recommend turning the brightness way down to minimal level since out of the box its like staring into a lightbulb. This should help keep the blacks alittle darker as well as reduce eyestrain.

The blacks aren't as great on dvds since they are scaled. The saturation on any content is best at native resolution (original-sized dvd rez in a window for example).

So the blacks are decent but not superb like my 24" FW900 widescreen crt. The lcd also suffers ghosting when there is fast screen panning in things such as 1st person shooters. There is also a frosted anti-glare layer on the viewsonic LCD that I'd prefer to not have, but thats not so bad once you get used to it. Native resolution required for decent viewing is another major tradeoff vs crt. The other thing I don't like about the 2025wm LCD is that very small text (smaller than icon labels) looks fuzzy, perhaps in part due to the frost-layer or the max 1680 x 1050 resolution limit. I would rather screens larger than 17" be at least 1920 x 1200 resolution as far as text is concerned, but gaming performance and native-rez requirment becomes a factor in that tradeoff as well.

I think that the glare-type screens enhance the blacks alittle better than the anti-glare screens. If I could do it over again I think I would buy the glare-type Acer AL2051W / 20" Wide / 8ms / 800:1 / WSXGA+ 1680 x 1050 screen instead of the viewsonic for the LCD part of my dual display. A good thing about those two 20" LCD models is that they are $300 +/- so the performance tradeoffs aren't so bad considering, and should hold most people over until better tech comes out at a favorable price-point. :cool:
 
Honestly, I bought this LCD because off all the raving about them and the fact that i owned my A90F CRT for 4 years i wanted to try something new.

After getting this LCD the VX922. I almost wish i just stayed with my CRT. For 1 Id say about 50% of my games do look so much better then my CRT, those are the brightgames, Like Farcry, WOW, HL2, BF2 and such games like that. The rest of the games like Splinter Cell, BF2 Special Forces, D3, Black & White 2 BOTG. The picture is to bright.

Its not really the "BLACK" color that is to bright when i get a solid black screen it looks fine. Its when playing games is where its pretty bad Its not dark and solid like a CRT would be. I Suggest you guys play Aliens VS Predator to truely test youre dark out with the lights off.

Another thing is most CRT'S today and even back then as long as there 19" there refresh rate will usually be high enough to play without the "flickering" issue heck my A90F would run @ 1280x1024 @ 80hz and 1280x960 @ 85 hz perectly fine for me never hurt my eyes once. The LCD on the other hand since it uses a flourescent light the color "WHITE" like white writing or white backgrounds on the internet sorta hurt youre eyes the only way i can explain it is the fealing of a crt being @ a 60HZ refresh rate @ 1600x1200.

Im still trying to decide if i should return this moniter to newegg get my money back and use it towards pc parts or something, or just keep. The problem is i do like the moniter, my CRT did have a problem to where when it gets really dark its hard to see anything if i have the lights on in my room and if i turned my my contrast and brightness up then the dark games looked to bright. With the LCD i can actually see in dark games without having to turn the light off. The color's in games like Farcry and WOW and such look more vibrant to me.

But again the issue where the WHITES hurt my eyes due to the flourescent light is what is making me say yes return it use my CRT you never had a problem with it why did you buy a new moniter ?? The other half is saying dude the moniter free'd so much space up on youre desk, it doesnt put off radiation, true it hurts youre eyes a little but in games you dont notice it and they looks so much better then the CRT.

Hope this helps lol


My suggestion is if youre CRT can do @ least 80hz refresh rate @ resolutions you like and if you dont haul the moniter around but it keep @ youre desk like i do then keep the CRT. Honestly its not a upgrade but a downgrade i found out the hard way when i got my LCD.

I also agree with what you said. People who write reviws on LCD'S only point out the good part mainly because there exited but the issue remains there is no LCD that doesnt hurt youre eyes, There is no perfect lCD that the black's look completetly black.
 
Hvatum said:
The only LCD with perfect blacks is an LCD which is turned off.
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LOL...I agree. don't get me wrong, I love my LCD, but an old 17" CRT Trinitron has much better blacks....period. LCD tech does not allow for TRUE blacks....
 
Hvatum said:
The only LCD with perfect blacks is an LCD which is turned off.
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The exact same can be said by replacing "LCD" with "CRT" though...

I dunno, HF's background is black, and it looks pretty damn B L A C K to me...

With my LCD and my CRTs, if the screensaver (just a blank screen) kicks in, my CRTs are a much brighter source of light than my LCD, and my LCD you can only tell is still on if you turn off ALL other light sources in my house... you can still tell the CRTs are on without turning off any lights...

Off/black on my LCD has far less difference than off/black for my CRTs...

But I don't have any experience with 17" monitors or cheaper LCDs... So YMMV...

My LCD is definitely here to stay...
 
Tolyngee said:
But I don't have any experience with 17" monitors or cheaper LCDs... So YMMV...

My LCD is definitely here to stay...
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I have had many LCD's over the past 3 years, and not a one of them had true blacks as does even a cheap CRT. If your CRT is brighter when displaying a black screen than your LCD, I think your brightness is way*too*high.....but whatever.


And I do not have a "cheap" LCD, I have a Gateway FPD2185, while a nice display that I love and won't go back to a CRT for, it certainly does not have true blacks. Black yes, but not the type of black that you see when there is NO light coming from behind the screen.
 
Rap: as I said, YMMV...

Before your last post, you hadn't mentioned what you had, so I had no idea either way...

So your point is your LCD does not have "true" blacks. NO LCD does... No one was saying any of them do... (FWIW: the topic is NOT "which LCD has TRUE black?")

But, on whitest white to blackest black comparison, my 37" W wins IMO... I've never been able to adjust any previous monitor (CRT) to get super-bright whites with pretty damn black blacks than I do with with 37" W... With my CRTs, either the white is bright grey or the black is dark dark grey... My 37" W is black/white in comparison the best I have seen.

Can I not state my experience? The topic is "blackest blacks", which in my experience a CRT cannot do. Your replies are "bullshit" and "not true black", which while one doesn't help but be flamey, the other isn't even the point of topic...

If you want a black black on a CRT in my mileage you have to sacrifice your bright white... Sure, you can adjust brightness on the CRT, but you can adjust the backlight level on my LCD... And now white isn't white...

Maybe I have a better LCD than your Gateway? Dunno, but my only groan about the 37" W is the adjusting to a lower res than I used for the last 5 yrs: 2048x1536 vs 1920x1080.

But I figure the thread intends to ask "best image quality" or "best black in comparison to bright white." You can turn the brightness down on anything and achieve black black black... Hell, adjust it enough, you will get to your point of "true black", I would imagine...

But what the hell's the point of black if you sacrifice a vibrant image?

Dunno, wish I had a brand new CRT in front of me to compare. But my expensive CRTs can't cut the mustard to this LCD... And I don't have experience (personal) with another LCD to have more comparison...

With all due respect, if you had some personal experience with a 37" W, I do wonder if you might change your tune a little... For me, it's "bullshit" to ever recommend a CRT again...

But I do L O V E the fact that the image quality I get from my LCD will be the same day 1826 as it was day 1... Can't say that about any monitor from my experience...
 
fobtastic said:
Tutelary, what are you basing your statement on? While true several years ago, LCD technology has improved drastically. These days, "graphic professionals" using CRTs exclusively is nothing more than a myth.
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Thats why tech which will be slow as hell, but more color accurate like led backlighting is being developed, because lcd is "just fine", right? until just recently Apples cinema displays were at 400:1, look at Blown talking about them like they are some standard, when they were comparatively crap. I dare say you see companies using them for the other benefits they offer, which is the standard lcd trade off. Less eye strain, smaller, far less weight, etc.

I should probably have qualified "graphic professionals" as photographers instead of such a wide ranging term, most of these people will still prefer crts as touching up skin tones is very telling when working on an lcd where the subtle nuances of flesh cant be fully replicated. Even people who work on calibrated EIZO lcds often prefer crts.

If you're working on a cartoon character who gives a crap if it has subtle imperfections one way or another, the audience or marketplace has no standard to determine what is "right" for that character to start with..thats where using an lcd is fine (Do you really notice if Shrek's green on one side is a slight bit different than it should be?) Likewise, laying out a magazine, blocks of text, pictures that have already been cropped, adjusted for color etc..another workplace where lcds are ok.

For *real subjects, from the real world* a CRT cannot be beat though.
 
There is no LCD with true blacks... Run it in a fully darkened room or even better with a CRT you will see that. However if I hide my CRT monitor the blacks in my Sony KDL 32-V2000 monitor that is well got good reviews on it´s black levels it´s not that bad you get frustrated with it. Night racing in GTR 2 demo it´s still dark but well no it don´t have the blacks of the CRT.

You will never find it unless a new lcd technology comes out...
 
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