What do you make of this?

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Pleb

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 12, 2013
Messages
236
On Sat. I ran a tracert command to google.com. First hop after my router was a US DOD IP address. Checked with friend on same ISP and it is the same for him. Did some searching on this and found out that Rogers in Canada is also doing this. I am on Shaw and I run tracert every now and again and this is a very recent change. Guy in below url with username 'sbrook' claims it is because they need more IP address blocks so DOD allocated IP address blocks to Canadian ISPs to use.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26936058-My-privacy-is-being-breached-by-rogers

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/nanog/users/141048

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/archive/index.php/t-248369.html

This person says it looks "fishy" to him and I have seen others who know a thing or two about networking say it looks fishy and the claim about running out of IP address blocks is a smoke screen because there are other networks they could get more blocks from besides US DOD.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread761697/pg1

I don't know what to think so I ask you.
 
Unless the DoD has also issued USB keys to all employees and implemented an "open door policy", I'd say it's just a smidge on this side of "impossible" that a DoD data-center would actually be the first hop on the Rogers network.

In other words - not damn likely, and if it were true, it would be the laziest "spying" in the history of internet surveillance. Really, would you believe the DoD/NSA could not afford a unassociated Static IP - to spy on it's closest neighbor no less.

I also like how your links are like a short waterslide into a pool of paranoid schizophrenic racists.... wouldn't be my first choice for source material.
 
I have screenshot of the trace route and it is true. First hop is US DOD IP address then it goes back to Shaw. Why?

In one url I have even a Rogers forum mod was alarmed by it and told the user to bring their modem back to Shaw. But then this same "sbrook' guy came along and told them it was because they needed more IP address blocks. I saw a video from over a year ago where a Canadian had this done to him but that was before it was done to everybody. He thought it was because he posted some anti_American rhetoric on a web forum and when he phoned Shaw about it they pleaded ignorance.

Show me some better source material on this issue then, that is all I could find. I have more urls but it is just more of the same. Then fact you claim racism is quite telling.

I just want to know why first hop is US DOD IP address.
 
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Pleb said:
Guy in below url with username 'sbrook' claims it is because they need more IP address blocks so DOD allocated IP address blocks to Canadian ISPs to use.
Click to expand...

re-read sbrook's reply, it does not state or imply what you think or said it does.

Pleb said:
I just want to know why first hop is US DOD IP address.
Click to expand...

because realistically, you can use any damn IP address internally that you want to. You do not have to use non-routable IPs.
Certainly it could cause issues and it's obviously against best practice, but it is not an absolute requirement.

Reading sbrook's reply from the dslreports forum, he states that Rogers ran out of 10.x.y.z IPs. Rogers then want to IANA and said "HELP!" IANA then told them they could use the 7.x.y.z address scope. So now Rogers is using 7.x.y.z IPs internally.
 
So it's just a coincidence that Shaw had to do the same and they were also assigned US DOD IPs?

Riiiiiiiiiiiight...looks more like filtering to me, and also to some other people too. But you are right, we are just tin foil hat wearers.

When I did a trace route using this sites tools http://www.all-nettools.com/toolbox/network-tools.htm
It actually shows the route going directly from Ohio to google on the west coast. If it is internal to Shaw why would it show that? Or is their tool broken?
 
In addition to the other responses, Read TAJ1972's response in that abovetopsecret forum. It sounds to me like you're looking for implications you're being snooped on rather than understanding what the numbers mean. Multiple responses in each site you linked listed very obvious explanations for what you are seeing and what it means (your traffic is not going to an nsa sever), I'm confused why you thought it was necessary to post it here. I had no clue about this, and after reading some of the links you provided, it makes complete sense to me that it is not going to some spy sever.
 
I didn't say just me, I said *everyone* on Rogers and Shaw ISPs. I posted it here to find out the technical reason why. Some people are not buying the sbrooks explanation. Why shouldn't I post it here? Seeing as USA is spying on everyone I think I have cause to be concerned or would you prefer it if I just STFU and be happy?

Also, I've been on the internet since 1994 and have never ever seen first hop not be my ISP.
 
That first hop IS the ISP network. They are using a public IP space as private unroutable though. It would be the same as you using 8.8.8.0/24 for your internal network. That doesn't mean Google is in your network though.
 
Innocence said:
I also like how your links are like a short waterslide into a pool of paranoid schizophrenic racists.... wouldn't be my first choice for source material.
Click to expand...

Sounds a lot like Soapbox!
 
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/usr/home said:
That first hop IS the ISP network. They are using a public IP space as private unroutable though. It would be the same as you using 8.8.8.0/24 for your internal network. That doesn't mean Google is in your network though.
Click to expand...

Where did I say google is in my network? I said US DOD. And that is just a coincidence to both Rogers and Shaw is it? Haven't even checked Telus or Bell yet.
 
Well.... I can tell you that there is no DoD ip that shows up in a tracert from Verizon fios near philly.
 
Hey guys, you trying to tell me that if you ran a tracert command on your PC and saw the first hop after your router was US DOD instead of your ISP you would think that is perfectly normal and go about your business? I could only see that happening if you are a complete fucking idiot.

11.x.xx.1

NetRange: 11.0.0.0 - 11.255.255.255
CIDR: 11.0.0.0/8
OriginAS:
NetName: DODIIS
NetHandle: NET-11-0-0-0-1
Parent:
NetType: Direct Allocation
RegDate: 1984-01-19
Updated: 2007-08-22
Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-11-0-0-0-1

OrgName: DoD Network Information Center
OrgId: DNIC
Address: 3990 E. Broad Street
City: Columbus
StateProv: OH
PostalCode: 43218
Country: US
RegDate:
Updated: 2011-08-17
Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/DNIC

OrgTechHandle: MIL-HSTMST-ARIN
OrgTechName: Network DoD
OrgTechPhone: +1-800-365-3642
OrgTechEmail:
OrgTechRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/MIL-HSTMST-ARIN

OrgTechHandle: REGIS10-ARIN
OrgTechName: Registration
OrgTechPhone: +1-800-365-3642
OrgTechEmail:
OrgTechRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/REGIS10-ARIN

OrgAbuseHandle: REGIS10-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Registration
OrgAbusePhone: +1-800-365-3642
OrgAbuseEmail:
OrgAbuseRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/REGIS10-ARIN

Anyway, I will accept the "explanation" given...for now.
 
Pleb said:
Where did I say google is in my network? I said US DOD. And that is just a coincidence to both Rogers and Shaw is it? Haven't even checked Telus or Bell yet.
Click to expand...

you definitely have a huge lack of reading comprehension or ability.

He was providing an example of a way to make it look like "google is in your network."
You just can't comprehend that; the comprehension is being blocked by your tinfoil hat.

Pleb said:
Hey guys, you trying to tell me that if you ran a tracert command on your PC and saw the first hop after your router was US DOD instead of your ISP you would think that is perfectly normal and go about your business? I could only see that happening if you are a complete fucking idiot.
Click to expand...

So maybe I should go ahead and reconfigure my network with a 11.0.0.0/24 network.
Because then that would mean the DoD is in my networks!
 
Pleb said:
Hey guys, you trying to tell me that if you ran a tracert command on your PC and saw the first hop after your router was US DOD instead of your ISP you would think that is perfectly normal and go about your business? I could only see that happening if you are a complete fucking idiot.
Click to expand...

If you are seeing the DoD IP as the first hop, that would mean that there is one single cable going from your house to the DoD Datacenter. No ISP routers between you and them. You really think there is a building somewhere with one cable going into it from every computer in the world that is connected to the internet? Even if you broke it down by region, you'd have to have one DoD building per town, otherwise the building would be kind of noticeable, with a 30 meter wide bundle of cables going into it.
 
Pleb said:
Hey guys, you trying to tell me that if you ran a tracert command on your PC and saw the first hop after your router was US DOD instead of your ISP you would think that is perfectly normal and go about your business? I could only see that happening if you are a complete fucking idiot.
Click to expand...


No, I'd say there would probably be hundreds or thousands of articles talking about it. This has been known for years and hardly talked about except via threads with some pretty convincing explanations if you know a thing about networking.

The U.S. has a HUGE chunk of IPv4 addresses vs the rest of the world. There is a reason behind that, we created the damn thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Canada only had one Class A block of addresses minus those used by the government of Canada. A lot of devices need IP addresses and even Time Warner (IIRC) started running out of public IP's and started using the 10.x.x.x range for every customer. There was a huge stink about it many months ago on DSLReports because it was conflicting with peoples private home networks.

Your concerns are noted, but have been given logical explanations. Unless you take it as far as you can to find out yourself by talking to real Shaw/Rogers people, then you'll never know for sure. It doesn't seem like you're taking that initiative, rather rejecting everyone elses explanations while failing to comprehend a single thing people have said.

A reverse lookup of an IP wont tell you shit except who that block representing that IP address was originally assigned to by a registry. Same way Geolocating an IP doesn't really tell you crap. It'll only get you close to the local office where you get Internet service. That IP can change hands any time without the registry being updated, much less the lookup databases. They can be loaned out, purchased, etc. from others who have excess amounts. It's actually a pretty decent business these days at the top corporate level. I believe Microsoft paid tens of millions for a handful of addresses from Novell when they went bell up not too long ago.
 
As stated before the odds of a DoD datacenter being the first hop on Roger's network is zero. The latency would be a mess if that was the case.

Either the DoD gave up some block(s) and the registries have not been updated, or Rogers took it upon themselves to hijack an non-routed netblock.

There is no conspiracy here. The DoD's routers would not respond to freakin' tracerts if you were somehow getting routed through them for spying reasons. Think about it... :rolleyes:
 
Try to do a traceroute TO the ip address that you think is a DoD IP address. My guess is the trace will die and you'll get a destination host unreachable because it's trying to access a non-publicly-routed IP address (because the 7. or 11. IP is contained within Rogers; not a public DoD IP address).

It sounds like you're intentionally ignoring what everyone has said on this subject since, like, 2011, because you'd rather believe that a US government agency is snooping on you.

Rogers uses a very IP-address-inefficient unified network (rather than geographically segregated). As such, they can technically run out of IP addresses, and did before IPv6 kicked in. Here is probably the part you don't believe, but it explains the situation: Rogers ran out of 10.x IP addresses. They petitioned the IANA to have some of the IP address range(s) that were previously allocated to the DoD (IP addresses that the DoD did not have in active use). These were the NON-ROUTED parts of the IP addresses that the DoD was given, and Rogers could have this portion to use for their internal IP addresses on the stipulation that these would be contained to Rogers internal net. That also explains why you see it on your first hop; because it's within Rogers network. Because it is Rogers.
 
Pleb said:
Hey guys, you trying to tell me that if you ran a tracert command on your PC and saw the first hop after your router was US DOD instead of your ISP you would think that is perfectly normal and go about your business? I could only see that happening if you are a complete fucking idiot.
Click to expand...

Or you're someone who knows how these things work from the Service Provider side of things. Using other unadvertised IP space has been going on for a while, the DoD owned space is just commonly used since the 7.0.0.0/8 won't likely be given back to ARIN for reallocation. Sprint is another carrier that uses/ed the 7.0.0.0/8 block in the cellular network, T-Mobile uses/ed 25.0.0.0/8 which belongs to the UK Ministry of Defense. Here's even a handy list that shows all unadvertised IPv4 blocks - they could have chosen any of these but commonly blocks belonging to defense/government related entities are used due to the problems that would result if the block you chose was ever publicly advertised.

This is somewhat similar to when The Pirate Bay told everyone it was being hosted in North Korea, in reality it was just trickery with IP space and BGP.

And as far as spying on you, if it was being done you wouldn't know it - this type of stuff is done with optical taps and Lawful Intercept, neither of which is detectable to the end user.
 
teh_chem said:
It sounds like you're intentionally ignoring what everyone has said on this subject since, like, 2011, because you'd rather believe that a US government agency is snooping on you.
Click to expand...

Wake the fuck up and smell the coffee: The US government is snooping on everyone!

I came here for a reasonable explanation and did not rule out the reason I read was valid and wanted to make sure it is correct but was immediately met with hostility from the goon squad so you gets what you gives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5MLolgMWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0lXi9420E4&feature=c4-overview&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

^ At least this American gives a fuck unlike the spineless majority.
 
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Pleb said:
I came here for a reasonable explanation and did not rule out the reason I read was valid and wanted to make sure it is correct but was immediately met with hostility from the goon squad so you gets what you gives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5MLolgMWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0lXi9420E4&feature=c4-overview&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

^ At least this American gives a fuck unlike the spineless majority.
Click to expand...

Reasonable explanation? Those of us that work in this field have given you explanations based on the VERY LIMITED information you provided. All requests for more info have been ignored or answered with baseless anecdotal responses. Now if you are anywhere remotely serious, give us some specific evidence that can be examined and verified or STFU and go troll somewhere else.
 
Pleb said:
Wake the fuck up and smell the coffee: The US government is snooping on everyone!

I came here for a reasonable explanation and did not rule out the reason I read was valid and wanted to make sure it is correct but was immediately met with hostility from the goon squad so you gets what you gives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5MLolgMWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0lXi9420E4&feature=c4-overview&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

^ At least this American gives a fuck unlike the spineless majority.
Click to expand...
The US is Snooping on everyone : I'm pretty sure that's been well established, even before Snowden leaked it.

This case however, has nothing to do with the DoD, NSA, Illuminati or Lizard people. This is an obvious case of the non-routable internal network at an ISP using a "public" IP range that just happens belong to the US DoD on the real, routable public internet.

Have you read any of the replies that try to clearly explain this? Doubtful.
Try reading what people have told you, and try to understand it.

If you're really unable to comprehend a universe where you're wrong about this, sorry - there's nothing that anybody can do about that.
 
Pleb said:
Wake the fuck up and smell the coffee: The US government is snooping on everyone!

I came here for a reasonable explanation and did not rule out the reason I read was valid and wanted to make sure it is correct but was immediately met with hostility from the goon squad so you gets what you gives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5MLolgMWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0lXi9420E4&feature=c4-overview&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

^ At least this American gives a fuck unlike the spineless majority.
Click to expand...
Run tracert with the destination ip address the one you claim is a DoD server spying on you, from outside your home connection (like at a coffee shop or something). 100% chance the trace will die because you're trying to reach a non publicly routed ip address.

All it sounds like is that you really don't care to understand what you're seeing despite rational and documented reasoning, and you'd rather go along with conspiracy theory ideas.

Have fun with that.
 
If the DoD wanted to look at traffic, they're certainly not going to put a route in there. They are going to tap it and push it to any number of traffic analyzers.
 
Physics, numbnut, physics. At 7ms, do you think the DoD set up shop in the Shaw datacenter, taking THEIR WHOLE ADDRESS BLOCK with them and spy on your connection? That'd be the most retarded thing I've ever seen.

When they spy on you, you wouldn't know from a traceroute. That's for sure.
 
Pleb said:
Wake the fuck up and smell the coffee: The US government is snooping on everyone!

I came here for a reasonable explanation and did not rule out the reason I read was valid and wanted to make sure it is correct but was immediately met with hostility from the goon squad so you gets what you gives.

^ At least this American gives a fuck unlike the spineless majority.
Click to expand...

ROFL! You're on a Canadian ISP in Canada and you're convinced the U.S. DOD is spying on you because the first hop is a DOD IP?

Get a clue. Because clearly Canada and your Canadian ISP would have to either
1) be directly involved (Letting the U.S. DOD spy on you) or
2) be so incompetent that they are unable to stop it regardless of them being a sovereign nation....

And to think you say its U.S. you don't trust.

You should probably accept the perfectly reasonable explanations given and move on. You haven't found the next big conspiracy....
 
Pleb said:
Wake the fuck up and smell the coffee: The US government is snooping on everyone!
Click to expand...

The truth is, the US DoD has its eyes on YOU and is out to get you! They believe you are up to something and will stop at nothing to figure out what it is. The tricky way to foil them is simple: stop using the internet! I'd recommend doing it sooner rather than later before they find what they are looking for!
 
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