What Certifications would be good for me, in today's Workplace?

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Direwolf20

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Mar 10, 2004
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Hi guys, sorry for what is probably yet ANOTHER Certification question. I did search the forums, but the only cert information I really found was a good 8-9 months old. Also, I wanted to ask some specific questions about me, so rather than Necro-post those old guys I decided to make a new one.

<MyStory>

I graduated College with a Computer Science degree in Jan 2004. Since March 1st, 2004 I've been working Tech Support at a local bank in the Philadelphia area, doing pretty well. I've got about 2.5 years of experience under my belt. I'm pretty good at my job. While I don't know all the answers off the top of my head, I'm very good at sitting down and "messing around" with a problem to find the solution. If you say, "hey Direwolf, How do you do XYZ", I'll say "No idea.", but if I sit down in front of the program, I'll figure it out pretty quick. My boss is always very pleased with how quickly I can work out problems.

I've also recently started doing Lotus Notes development work for them, I've got a pretty large database of Forms for internal bank stuff in our system now. I did do a lot of programming study, but I found I enjoy the support end of things a little more. I also administer my fair share of servers and keep a lot of back-end things running smoothly.

</MyStory>

Anyway, I wanted to start getting Certifications. However, I'm not really sure where to start. I've started looking over MS's website about MCSA/MCSE, etc etc. I guess my basic questions are, where should I begin?

Should I Start with A+? I took a couple A+ sample tests and I got around 70% or so without any studying. I figure I could probably pass an A+ test relatively easily, but is it worthwhile to start with that? Will that count towards any of the MCSA/MCSE tests? I think I read that A+ and Network+ can count towards an elective test for MCSA?

Does anyone have a good website where it really breaks down what exams count towards what certification?

I'm slightly intimidated, because i really kind of suck at memorization/regurgitation, but I excel at creative problem solving and hands-on problem solving. If I can sit down and "Think Through" a problem, I'm fine. But I'm really not that good at sitting down, reading a bunch of books, and then spitting the information back out. However, I'm sure I could do it if I really put my mind to the task.

Just looking for a bit of guidance. Thanks in advance guys :).

-Direwolf
 
I'm in the same job market as you, in Philadelphia, and I recently had to look for a job. Unless you are getting the certs through your company, meaning you don't have to pay for them, I wouldn't really bother. My degree from Drexel meant a lot more than any certs (I have none, no plans to get any). I dealt with quite a few recruiters during this process, and each one assured me that certs are great for people without a degree, but not necessary for those with them. Experience is the single biggest thing that's required. You'll see a lot of certs listed as requirements for a job, but I was offered a few jobs that said they required certs. The golden rule for hiring to find someone who knows the material. As long as you learn these things on your own, and slap those skills on your resume, you'll be fine. While you can't forward the clock ahead to add years, you can immerse yourself in projects to elarn different things. My previous job was Project Management-like, but I spent a lot of time unofficially learning Server 2003 and such. That personal learning is what led me to my new job of being an IT Manager for a small company in Center City.
 
djnes said:
I'm in the same job market as you, in Philadelphia, and I recently had to look for a job. Unless you are getting the certs through your company, meaning you don't have to pay for them, I wouldn't really bother. My degree from Drexel meant a lot more than any certs (I have none, no plans to get any). I dealt with quite a few recruiters during this process, and each one assured me that certs are great for people without a degree, but not necessary for those with them. Experience is the single biggest thing that's required. You'll see a lot of certs listed as requirements for a job, but I was offered a few jobs that said they required certs. The golden rule for hiring to find someone who knows the material. As long as you learn these things on your own, and slap those skills on your resume, you'll be fine. While you can't forward the clock ahead to add years, you can immerse yourself in projects to elarn different things. My previous job was Project Management-like, but I spent a lot of time unofficially learning Server 2003 and such. That personal learning is what led me to my new job of being an IT Manager for a small company in Center City.
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Thanks djnes, good stuff to know. It seems a lot of people around me (Especially those in the programming field) are getting certs, and they keep telling me I should get some as well. Personally, I never really planned to get them either.

So you really don't think its neccesary to pursue anything? Not even an A+ or something I could pass with relative ease?
 
I just got hired at a company a month ago. They're paying for any and all certs I take so I'm going one at a time. If you really want to go for them, I would start with A+ (Hardware and OS), and Network+. Those will pretty much be your starting point, and you can choose where you want to go from there. MCSEs will come in handy as well, and Cisco certs can give you some valuable info and cred if you want to go the network admin route.
 
Direwolf20 said:
So you really don't think its neccesary to pursue anything? Not even an A+ or something I could pass with relative ease?
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You're job is already above what an A+ cert would be good for, so it would be like going back to high school for you at this point. A+ certs aren't even looked at outside of retail stores, like Best Buy. I'm going to take a handful of classes at Delaware County CC in the upcoming months, just to brush up on some skills and get into Unix a little bit more. Aside from that, I haven't really had a need to get any certs. I think for programmers they are a big deal, but for general IT or sys admin types, they don't do as much as a degree+experience.
 
It really depends on the company and position. Your degree and work experience should be your best selling points, but depending on what you're looking for would determine what kind of cert you should go for. If you're going to be working at the desktop level, then A+ and possibly an OS cert would come in handy. One says you know hardware, the other says you know the OS. If you're looking to get into networking, then the MCSA would probably be a good choice, though if you're familiar with Windows Server operating systems, you might be better off getting Cisco certs. You don't *have* to get any certs, unless you find not having them is hurting your job prospects.
 
From my perspective as an employer, I look at 3 things:

1. Experience
2. Certifications
3. College graduate

I have to weigh each one carefully in the context of whom is applying to my company, however, I will go so far to say that while some of you may not think certs count, they can hold a good deal of weight with smaller entities such as myself.

Since we are a Microsoft Certified Partner, candidates with certs count towards our employment requirement of maintaining at least two Microsoft Certified Professionals on staff. If we want to obtain a certain compentency, it requires we have a certain number of staff with certain certifications for *each* compentency.

We are a Certified Small Business Specialist which also requires yet another certification to be held by one or more employees.

The above can also apply to other vendor partner programs like Citrix.

My point is although larger businesses may not care about certs, there are infinitely more small IT firms such as myself who look for certs for reasons beyond proving a candidates knowledge and skill and that you shouldn't discount them so easily. It very well could make a difference in your chances of being hired.

Hope this information at least gives most of you a different perspective! :D
 
It does, thanks! :)

So, as an employer, what certs do you hold in high regard?

And a lot of people are talking about College Degree. Is there a particular degree being looked for? My degree was in Computer Science, which is more programming oriented.
 
Direwolf20 said:
Is there a particular degree being looked for? My degree was in Computer Science, which is more programming oriented.
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That's a tough question because not all colleges give the same names to the same coursework. Not all schools, for example, have an IT degree, so they call it Computer Science. You certainly aren't hurting yourself any to have a CompSci degree.
 
djnes said:
That's a tough question because not all colleges give the same names to the same coursework. Not all schools, for example, have an IT degree, so they call it Computer Science. You certainly aren't hurting yourself any to have a CompSci degree.
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Cool. The way I see it, I have a pretty good understanding of programing, which helps me figure out how programs work. I've got a pretty logical mind in that sense. I think thats what lends me the ability to work through stuff.
 
Direwolf20 said:
It does, thanks! :)

So, as an employer, what certs do you hold in high regard?

And a lot of people are talking about College Degree. Is there a particular degree being looked for? My degree was in Computer Science, which is more programming oriented.
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Certs depends on what position or tasks your being employed for ;)

For example, only two of my clients have Cisco routers so Cisco certs are not very valuable to me.

We deal with small businesses that have P2P, Client/Server environments so Microsoft Certs are currently held in higher regard in my business than say Cisco certs.

As for my business, MCP gets you "acknowledged" whereas MCSA/MCSE would jump out at me.Specialization in MCSA/MCSE is even better.

I've had resumes come in where a person claims they know Server 2000/2003 but they only list a cert for NT4.0. Quite frankly that person may have experience, but if they are not keeping up with current certs that weighs on my decision making process as I need staff who are up to date with skills, knowledge, experience, & certs.

As for the college degree, associates is fine with me, however if you majored in healthcare and are looking for an IT job, I may question the "career change" to find out if your going to stick with IT or not. College to me signifies you are willing to commit to a long term engagement and will put in the time necessary to complete it.

What it boils down to is knowing what positions you are applying for and what certs/degress would apply. :p
 
My recommendation would be to do the following:

1. Login to Monsterjobs or some other online hireing/resume service.

2. Check out the certifications for the job-positions/levels you are intersted in.

3. Find out if you have the skills needed for that certification, if exceedingly skilled you could likely pass the exam without taking the associated course.

This way you can tailor for the demographics of the employeers you are interested in in your region. For example, someone telling you to get several different Cisco certifications would not help you if your potential employeer is Juniper equiped and vice versa.

Once you know what those perspective employeers are looking for specifically, average them up and see what commonalities you need to cover. This way you are set for the companies in your area that you are interested in. In addition, if you are thinking of relocating you can repeat the same exercise for the employeers in the area you are thinking of relocating to.

For example, here in the Seattle area you'll find MCSE in different specialities are required for employement, but during a recent visit to Washington DC it was interesting to see how many Novell shops that were still in existance. These required Novell certifications for employeement, but getting certified in Novell is not a sensible suggestion if none of your perspective employeers are using that system.

Good luck!
 
I read a study recently that showed that certifications had 0 impact on the salaries of IT employees. That said, it will probably be a waste of your time if you have a CS degree. The only thing that certifications seem to help with is getting a job. That being said, employers will usually consider a CS degree and experience much more than they will a certification. They can easily guage your knowledge in an interview.

One thing you skipped over in your post is how you go from being happy with what you do, learning and being productive to wanting certifications. What benefit do you think they will bring you? My advice would be if they're free and you enjoy getting them then go for it. Otherwise, spend your time doing something better.
 
general said:
One thing you skipped over in your post is how you go from being happy with what you do, learning and being productive to wanting certifications. What benefit do you think they will bring you? My advice would be if they're free and you enjoy getting them then go for it. Otherwise, spend your time doing something better.
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I like what I do, I don't really like my current pay rate. I'm fairly certain there is little opportunity for advancing my pay in my current position, and as for a Promotion, I don't really see anywhere to get promoted to.

Therefore, I'm looking to do certifications so that when the time comes, I can find a new job that much easier. However, from what I'm reading here, they won't help with that very much. Perhaps only in a few instances.
 
general said:
I read a study recently that showed that certifications had 0 impact on the salaries of IT employees. That said, it will probably be a waste of your time if you have a CS degree. The only thing that certifications seem to help with is getting a job. That being said, employers will usually consider a CS degree and experience much more than they will a certification. They can easily guage your knowledge in an interview.
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That's an interesting thing for you to say. I just read in InfoWorld where they were talking about more IT staff going back and getting more certs to compete in the market. Granted, the real way to make money is to move forward toward an MBA and get into management, but from what I've read there is a growing push to get more certs.

general said:
One thing you skipped over in your post is how you go from being happy with what you do, learning and being productive to wanting certifications. What benefit do you think they will bring you? My advice would be if they're free and you enjoy getting them then go for it. Otherwise, spend your time doing something better.
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I definitely have to say I agree here. While I am in a very good position for someone who got here with no certifications and not enough credits for a BS, I got here because I am good at things that, while not directly related to the technical side of my job, are key to making me more marketable. I handle dealing with people well, I have a firm understanding of economics (and accounting), and I am comfortable managing as well as getting down into the thick of things and letting my hands get dirty. These are skills that college and certification tests can only supplement skills that need to be developed outside of a clinical environment. There is a lot of critical thinking involved in quick succession. If anything, I try to focus on telling people to work on those kinds of skills, either through exercises or through practice.

You (the OP) have a good foundation with the CS degree, but if you want to do more in the IT field that doesn't involve being a programmer, then you are going to probably want to take some IS classes to give you a little more of the business side of things. A lot of schools offer a short range of classes specializing in specific parts of the field, whether it is system administration, desk-side support, or network technician related jobs. You might want to consider those, if you want to make yourself more tasty to HR departments. Some places are going to ask for specific certifications before even considering talking to you, but those places are like that often because HR is given a list of things to look for and they mechanically stick to those keywords instead of checking for valid related experience... not all places do that. So, the answer to whether having certs will increase your chances of hire is "pretty definitely maybe, depending on the situation."

What it boils down to is what has already been said: do it because you want to learn more and because you enjoy it. If you don't like what you're doing, then perhaps there may be a problem that having certs might not fix for you.
 
Direwolf20 said:
Therefore, I'm looking to do certifications so that when the time comes, I can find a new job that much easier. However, from what I'm reading here, they won't help with that very much. Perhaps only in a few instances.
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It really depends on what you want to do with yourself. For tech support positions, taking a few support-related certifications will aid you tremendously (Apple, Dell, and HP spring to mind as places who have good support avdancement certs). For administration positions, experience, familiarity, and exposure to technologies is going to get you very far, and certs might help you establish that (depending on the cert). If you are going to be joining a smaller consulting operation, then it might behoove you to have certs because they get you prestige and the ability to justify charges on services (though experience and familiarity can take precedence here, depending on the situation). For management, you aren't going to get very far without some accounting-based education, and in that area an MBA is the single leading leverage for getting hired. Programming jobs get even more specialized, in that you must begin immersing yourself in the languages for which you want to be hired in (here in Dallas, C# is hot).

The truth about certs is that they aren't the silver bullet in getting hired. However, just like anything you use in a resume, they are still worthy tools. Heck, just the ability to put together an effective resume might make the difference in getting hired or not, as opposed to listing certs and schools and hoping that grabs attention. Keep in mind that today's HR departments are using web searches and keyword scans to pick out candidates, so make sure you are listing all pertinent competencies. That will make just as much difference as a cert in a lot of cases.

I say all this because I believe in it and it's worked for me. I've already doubled my income in just over a year by using effective methods to getting hired, and then letting my skills be the negotiating factor in establishing my salary-- I get paid what I'm worth to the company now, instead of some non-negotiable, arbitrary, market-driven number. If you work with establishing yourself like that in mind, then you will find yourself edging your way into a salary bracket that is more to your liking (within reason... I want to be a millionaire too, but I'd also like my own spaceship and laser gun... baby steps).
 
I like what SJConsultant said about small biz and certs, it's entirely true. The IT company I've worked for the last 4 years is a small company, and prefer certs over a degree. Sounds odd but they prefer self-taught people with real world experience. A lot of people knock the A+ cert, but EVERY job I've had required or preferred it. Even when I worked as a consultant for Compaq on a job with the government, A+ was required but a degree wasn't if you had equivelent experience :eek:

Of course with a CS degree you have a advantage over anyone who doesn't, but if you have the time grabbing a few certs will not hurt you. You do not have to put them on your resume, but if you apply for a job that prefers or requires such and such cert, and you don't have it, you're then at a disadvantage.
 
For some jobs, it's good to have when applying. For example, at my job it's almost impossible to earn a raise (beyond the across-the-board). But I did get extra points during my salary determination for "industry recognized certifications/credentials". So spending the time and ~$1000 on certifications to earn over $1000 more a year was worth it in my specific case.

Note that the A+ was supposed to be revised later this year.
 
Forget this PC stuff and go for high end ERP, thats where you can make 6 figures. Go for SAP Basis certification, its technical, working with database technology and ERP software.
 
nickanderson said:
Forget this PC stuff and go for high end ERP, thats where you can make 6 figures. Go for SAP Basis certification, its technical, working with database technology and ERP software.
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Not everyone is up for that kind of thing. I do hardware and love it. Tried moving to development, DBM and networking and was back to PC support every time. Everything else puts me to sleep, larger salary or not.
 
I wish I could use "forum educated" in my resume. Like seriously.... if you don't use forums, you're bumped down the list.
 
I'm probably in the minority, but at least for a tech position like mine, when I look for someone for a position, I look for a techie like me. I prefer someone who builds their own computers, enjoys troubleshooting them, overclocking them and possibly modding them. Not that all of those skills transfer over to desktop support, but at least the knowledge and the passion are there. The last two guys that worked for me barely had any PC knowledge and it showed in how they did their jobs. When I eventually hire again, I'm gonna hire a forum proficient gamer... :D
 
Well... just my 2 cents... but I have found that degrees show that you have been ingrained with the ability through logical theory, thinking and understanding to attempt a general thing. While certifications show that you can perform a specific task.

On the negative side of certifications it becomes expensive quick. I blew through over $3000 without a hickup and will be going for my MCSA next week (Which increases the grand total to slightly under $4000). Also training classes and video training can become very costly. Though CBTNuggets are pretty well priced.

On the plus side the certification courses via book or video training are excellent for learning the majority of everything there is to know about a product. I look at it this way... you can spend a couple of years gaining experience and slowing learning all the different features a particular product has to offer. Or go through the training and learn it in a fraction of the time. Plus the training/certification books are very excellent resources for down the road.

Also, if you need any help with trying to figure how any Microsoft, etc exams are interconnected I have a chart I made up in Word if you want.
 
Certs can get expensive, but so can college degrees :)

For some a college degree is around $30-40k plus the cost of books which are an arm and a leg sometimes.

I just spent $900 on Cisco routers and switches and what I thought was a lot of money to be spending, actually might not be that much at all.
 
MooCow said:
I just spent $900 on Cisco routers and switches and what I thought was a lot of money to be spending, actually might not be that much at all.
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$900 is a drop in the bucket. We bought 4 Catalyst 3750G-48PS and a 3750G-24PS about 3 months ago. They're extremely nice incase anyone is wondering.


When I got my first good paying tech job it was because I had a CCNA cert, and 3 yrs experience(was still in College). He hired me over a guy that had a degree, no expreience, and no certs.
Through my current job I got an MCSE, and I'm working towards Apple certification. I'm also working on Linux certification on my own.

I've seen plenty of college graduates and cert holders that couldn't troubleshoot a problem with a step-by-step guide. Can you apply that knowledge? Usually longevity is the only way to tell that, and if you have a small tech staff you usually can't afford to hire someone just to fine out.
 
This is an incredible thread, because of all the great input. I have an MCSA on windows 2000, and it had zero impact on my job knowledge or much less even getting hired. In fact it carries less weight than my A+ and oem certs carry. It does depend very much on where you want to be employed. I am in a position at my place of employment that I help make decisions on who to hire. Its astounding how hard it is to find truely bright people who meet the certification requirements to get hired. I've met perhaps 3 or 4 people in my entire experience here I thought could even hang with me (and I'm not that smart =\ ).

I think experience is everything, but the certifications are VERY smart to have because they will get your foot in the door when an employer needs you to have them. A wide range of certs in a particular area like for pc support, A+, Net+, mcsa/e, and perhaps OEM certifications really open the door a little wider for jobs available to you.

Nobody knows how to do everything in their particular field, in fact the more I learn the more I find out I don't know. Approach, resourcefulness, and out of the box type thinking really make the very best IT people. Always widen your horizon :)
 
Earlier in the year I thought my college loans were going to be denied, so I began the hardcore job hunt. Almost every hardware job I looked at from Best Buy to the father and son computer shop either required A+ or preferred it. They use it as a selling point, as though to say "All of our techs are A+ certified so they do the job better" to all people who may need something done. Where you go to apply makes as much difference as what your experience is. I was reading an article about how a degree can be a blemish on your resume for those that aren't up to par with you. ie, you apply for a job where everyone has a bachelor's degree and you have a masters. Or you have a bachelors and they all have certs or are all self taught. Making sure you fit in with the company is going to be more important than anything.

Certs can be complete garbage as well. I knew somebody who worked with linux networking and servers and he says that if he decided to get his linux certification that his co-workers would laugh him right out of the building.

Another instance is where degrees and certs go hand in hand. Where I go to college some programs are geared strictly towards getting your cert. Cisco, MCSE, (formerly Novell, i don't know if they still do it), linux, etc. And I know for some of them you have to pass the cert as a grad requirement. Granted these are ususally for Associates Degree programs that correspond with a bachelor's major (ie, AAS in Cisco Networking would tie in with the bachelors for Computer Networking or something like that), but still. That way, all the bases are covered.

The best thing I can think of to say is never stop learning and never stop buying books.
 
MooCow said:
I wish I could use "forum educated" in my resume. Like seriously.... if you don't use forums, you're bumped down the list.
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Hmm, I would call that an ICFA, Internet Certified Forum Arguer. Your future companies value may very on such a holding :) For one thing, they can count on your productivity being next to nothing if your workstation has an internet connection.
 
Tweakin said:
Hmm, I would call that an ICFA, Internet Certified Forum Arguer. Your future companies value may very on such a holding :) For one thing, they can count on your productivity being next to nothing if your workstation has an internet connection.
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Actually, at my current job, if it weren't for this forum, my productivity would be a negative percentage.
 
Well to me, your college degree in CSci would outweigh any certs. I would use that as a step to getting an MBA (most likely what I will be doing in the next year or two) as others have suggested, especially if you are looking for more money. Another suggestion would be to get a MS in Software Engineering. If it doesn't look like there is much possibility of advancement in your current work, you could look around to see what else is available in your area. Switching companies is one of the best ways to get a higher income, and you could move into a company that will allow you to do the same job function as you currently are. Better yet, contract.
 
SJConsultant pretty much summed it up. One thing to remember. Certs can really only help you in most cases.

Things like the A+ and Net+ are good to have as they are steping stones and don't expire. They also help show you have some knowledge. I've seen my share of people that have the MCSE but can't trouble shoot computer problems worth shit. I mean like can't figure out a failing hard drive or bad memory. It is pretty bad.

Unless you are willing to keep up with the MCSE cert I wouldn't worry about it yet. Start with the easy stuff and work your way up. If you go looking for a new job some places are really keen on your having a degree. Some smaller shops will not care but as SJ said a lot do. I know the consultants I work for didn't mind me not having my mcse as they were able to talk to me and knew I was good but I'll tell you relearning windows server has been fun. I come from unix administration. The switch over has been pretty easy so far. Basic things like the a+ are nice too as we can tell clients that we are certified for what we are doing. In my case I was compaq, emachine, and toshiba certified so it is easy for me to say I know my way around computers. I use to be dell server certified as well. Needless to say I'm the one my boss always sends out to look at notebooks :p
 
I just read through the thread and should point out that you can do a lot more in the IT world other than desktop support. Go work for a company that makes information systems and support their software. The jobs are higher up on the ladder, will DEFINITELY require a degree and will offer you huge opportunities for growth. Getting an MBA is great, but if you stay the course, you'll be the only person in your MBA class who's 'business' career involved reinstalling IE and removing spyware for people. You have a CS degree (and by that I hope you mean Bachelor's) you might as well leverage it. I wouldn't worry about people who say that certs will get hired over certifications. That might happen for basic desktop/end user support roles, but in reality that most often happens simply because the employer knows that they will lose/have to pay a lot more to an employee who has a degree and gets 2 years of experience.
 
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