What am i missing.

[rflcptr]

heatless, I will award you 5000000 XP if you purchase your first Apple product this weekend. iPad or device with trackpad preferred. Accessories do not count.

Yours truly,
rflcptr

 

[wonderfield]

"Make that 5000000 Microsoft Windows XP and you've got a deal!"

 

[heatlesssun]

Strange responses to simply mentioning that a track pad, even on a Mac is not at all the same thing as a touch screen. Even with the nice touch gestures on Mac track pads a track pad is primarily a mouse pointing device. One is typically not manipulating a mouse pointer on a touch screen device.

 

[SuperSubZero]

One example: removing icons from the Dock. In Windows, removing pinned icons from the task bar entails right-clicking to show a hidden context menu and selecting the correct option from a small range of options. It's not fundamentally intuitive that you'd activate a hidden menu by means of specially-bound mouse button, but it does become familiar over time. This is simple, but not intuitive. In the real world, what action do you perform to remove an object from a shelf? You reach out, grab it and simply move it from the shelf. That's also exactly what you do to remove an icon from the Dock. The only difference is that moving the icon destroys the icon, but a special animation is used to denote that's what's happening.

Not sure if was mentioned yet, but this is inaccurate.

XP will certainly allow you to simply pull icons out of the taskbar. Just like OS X. But unlike OS X, which destroys the shortcut in the process, XP will just leave the shortcut where it's dropped. Much like taking something off a shelf. If I take a book off a shelf it doesn't just poof in smoke. It tends to land on the desk.

Nowadays, Windows 8.x (and I presume 7), on left-click drag, will throw up a jump-list with an option to remove the shortcut from the taskbar.

No right-click needed.

Sometimes it's really been there all along but users, stubborn in their ways, simply never notice. "The Windows key can open Start? It's been able to do that for years and years?"

 

[heatlesssun]

Already mentioned and yes dragging off the task bar works the same in 7.

 

[wonderfield]

XP will certainly allow you to simply pull icons out of the taskbar.

I'm constraining myself to discussing operating systems released within the last decade. I apologize if this constraint results in greater relevance.

Nowadays, Windows 8.x (and I presume 7), on left-click drag, will throw up a jump-list with an option to remove the shortcut from the taskbar.

Yes, I tested that before I posted on both 7 and 8.1. It's a method of activating a context menu that's not used anywhere else in the OS, as far as I'm aware, which is hardly a compelling argument for intuitiveness.

 

[MrCrispy]

heatless, I will award you 5000000 XP if you purchase your first Apple product this weekend. iPad or device with trackpad preferred. Accessories do not count.

Yours truly,
rflcptr

Why don't you instead explain why a trackpad is same as a touchscreen, instead of insulting people by saying they don't own a Mac so they can't know anything.

I've used Macs. Have you used a touchscreen? You have to be delusional to think they are the same thing.

 

[MrCrispy]

Yes, I tested that before I posted on both 7 and 8.1. It's a method of activating a context menu that's not used anywhere else in the OS, as far as I'm aware, which is hardly a compelling argument for intuitiveness.

You said removing an icon from Dock is intuitive because it can be done by dragging. Yet the same gesture on Windows is not intuitive?

And its the same context menu, just with jump lists removed. It makes total sense.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Not that this message will help at all in terms of this massive change in direction... but I'll give it a shot anyway.

Short of doing an actual experimental study with individuals with no knowledge of either operating system and trying to create quantifiable information, it's unlikely that we can have a reasoned debate over which operating system is easier to use.

The long and the short of this digression is that in both OSs there are behaviors/actions that have to be learned in order to use the operating system. In other words, due to the wide range of capabilities/features each OS needs to have in order to meet the requirements of a wide range of people (from n00bs to literal rocket scientists and engineers), a certain amount of complexity is introduced that can't simply be explained through design elements such as a skeumorph or tiles.

Hell, I'd argue that both OSs are complex for the simple reason that they require a mouse, which requires quite a bit of learning despite more advanced users finding it simple. So with that there will always be a learning curve associated with using a desktop OS, until there is either a direct touch interface, or some other interface that doesn't require peripherals to operate (e.g.: I'm sure at some point in the future, we'll be able to simply ask our computers to do operations and it will 'understand' well enough to do them. Similar to cell phone technology but significantly more sophisticated in order to do complex commands). Windows 8 and OSX are both sort of moving towards this concept, and I think we all see that at some point mobile like design on a touch screen desktop OS will at some point converge as the push for easier systems to manipulate will emerge. However, that day isn't today. And both are sufficiently complex to require explanation, or at the very least someone tech savvy enough to experiment with it in order to learn its behaviors.

 

[wonderfield]

You said removing an icon from Dock is intuitive because it can be done by dragging. Yet the same gesture on Windows is not intuitive?

One has to question the motives of someone who claims to be uninterested in debating and demonstrates said disinterest by...debating.

...

 

[rflcptr]

Why don't you instead explain why a trackpad is same as a touchscreen, instead of insulting people by saying they don't own a Mac so they can't know anything.

I've used Macs. Have you used a touchscreen? You have to be delusional to think they are the same thing.

Please quote the post in which the claim was made.

 

[rflcptr]

Trackpad != touch

I admit Macs have a nice trackpad, its still can't be compared to an actual touchscreen.

Both are certainly capable of managing a workflow.

With a real touch UI you need much bigger controls, trackpad is just a mouse.

What does this even mean? "With a VCR you need to rewind the tape, a DVD is just a disc."

 

[heatlesssun]

Hell, I'd argue that both OSs are complex for the simple reason that they require a mouse, which requires quite a bit of learning despite more advanced users finding it simple.

A lot in Windows 8 can be done without a mouse using a touch screen device. Using the desktop can be tricky, does take some getting used to particularly on smaller screens. But even the BIOSes on new touch devices are touch enabled.

 

[heatlesssun]

Both are certainly capable of managing a workflow.

What does this even mean? "With a VCR you need to rewind the tape, a DVD is just a disc."

A track pad's primary function, no matter the gestures supported, is to control a mouse pointer. There is no mouse pointer to control with a touch screen under conventional circumstances. Not sure that the sticking point is here, it's a pretty obvious and huge difference between the input methods.

 

[rflcptr]

So you're willfully ignoring the totality of the trackpad's capabilities. Gotcha.

 

[heatlesssun]

So you're willfully ignoring the totality of the trackpad's capabilities. Gotcha.

No, it's just that a track pad is a mouse pointing device, a touch screen isn't. And it does seem odd to try to compare a Mac track pad under OS X to touch screen input since OS X doesn't officially support touch screens or touch first applications. I use track pads and touch enabled and gestures everyday under Windows 8.1 as well as with touch screens. The gestures are cool, switching apps, activating the Start Screen with finger flicks. As good desktop track pad like the Logitech T650 has excellent pinch zooming responsiveness. So the difference of mouse pointing is pretty obvious to me and a the huge difference and why a track pad and touch screen are fundamentally different, even with gestures.

No one argued that most PC track pads in laptops are lack luster especially compared to Macs, but even with excellent gestures support it simply isn't the same thing as a touch screen.

 

[mope54]

a track pad is a mouse pointing device

no, this is not true. numerous people in this thread who own and operate magic trackpads are stating this is a false assumption yet two people with limited experience with magic trackpads are saying we're wrong.

the ones using the devices would be the authorities on the subject...and in relation to the thread the question is "what is [someone] missing" in terms of understanding OS X. if someone doesn't know the answer to a question, then it doesn't make sense for other people who also don't know the answer to the question to argue with the people who do.

 

[heatlesssun]

The track pad that doesn't track a mouse pointer. I guess that's why this one is called magic. Seriously, the same kinds of track pads exist for Windows, in 8 they've been updated to emulate things like side swipes and have gestures for activating the Start Screen, switching apps, brining up app switchers and so forth. But they'd be kind of useless if they couldn't be used to point the mouse cursor. If OS X doesn't have a mouse cursor my bad.

 

[mope54]

1. a track pad does more than simply track a mouse pointer

2. this conversation is pointless. you don't use one and don't know what you're talking about but perfectly willing to wade into a thread about an OS you have no experience with on a device you have no experience with and shit all over the place

 

[heatlesssun]

1. a track pad does more than simply track a mouse pointer

But that is its primary function because otherwise its useless regardless of its other features.

2. this conversation is pointless. you don't use one and don't know what you're talking about but perfectly willing to wade into a thread about an OS you have no experience with on a device you have no experience with and shit all over the place

I use track pads and touch mice and Windows 8 along with touch screen devices. You're talking about the hypothetical in equating track pads and touch screens in regards to OS X since OS X doesn't officially support touch screens. I'm pointing out actual experience in using an OS that supports both and pointing out the obvious differences between the two input methods.

in these circumstances experience to make a point about the equivalency of touch mouse pointers and touch screens considering that OS X nor iOS officially support both touch screens and track pads.

 

[mope54]

no, the discussion of track pads came about because I questioned crispy's analysis of an OS that he doesn't appear to be using on the hardware it was designed to be used on. This isn't a hypothetical situation to talk about theoretical devices.

using OS X on non-apple hardware MAKES A DIFFERENCE WHEN EVALUATING THE OS BECAUSE THE TRACKPAD IS MORE FUNCTIONALLY INTEGRATED INTO THE OS THAN SIMILAR HARDWARE IS ON WINDOWS DEVICES.

In fact, I use windows 8.1 on my macbook and on my desktop. This happens every time you step into a thread (aside from the obvious drifting the damn conversation into a windows 8 direction) you seem to assume that people SOMEHOW don't have experience in Windows.

Those of us on Macs have to live in a Windows world. We've used Windows extensively regardless of whether we want to or not. We've used Windows on our Mac hardware. The trackpad that works so seamlessly in OS X *DOES NOT* work worth a shit in Windows.

The track pads for Windows devices are shitty versions of flat mice. You make the statements you make because Windows has started to implement gestures into it's OS. And you think that the advancements made in Windows devices somehow approximate what a trackpad does in OS X.

YET, HERE I AM TELLING YOU I HAVE USED BOTH EXTENSIVELY AND YOU'RE WRONG.
They are not the same, they are not similar, they are not analogous. USE BOTH AND THEN WE'LL GIVE MORE CREDENCE TO YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE FUNCTIONALITY OR LACK THEREOF OF TRACKPADS IN OSX.

If Crispy is using a mouse in OS X because he's evaluating the software on a hackintosh or a VM or worse, he's basing his assessment from years ago, then his opinion on what the OP is "missing" while trying to navigate Mavericks is misguided at best. It is not sufficient to simply disregard that observation of mine with the retort that a trackpad is the same as a mouse so it doesn't matter what hardware he's using the OS on.

 

[Mr. Miyagi]

This thread has run its course.