Well, I like it!

L

lopoetve

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
33,902
Well, Arkaine... you did it. You converted me. I've dropped slack on my main systems and I'm using yoper now...

:D

I LIKE it :D

www.yoper.com for those of you who don't know wtf I'm talking about.

Very fast, full featured, but fully normal linux! WOOT! :)
 
is yoper a binary distribution? I switched from slack to gentoo a while back.. but that was mainly because I was tired of binary distributions.
 
From the yoper site...
What is Yoper?

Yoper is a high performance operating system which has been carefully optimised for PC's with either 686 or higher processor types. The binaries that come with Yoper have been built from scratch using the original sources combined with the best features of from the major distros. However, Yoper is not like the general purpose distros such as Redhat or Mandrake. It is a high performance desktop OS. It is compact. In fact, Yoper is one of the most standardised Linuxes that you will find and hardware performancetries to be better better than that of any commercial OS.
Click to expand...

I think it's a good idea for people wanting an optomized-for-your-system distro but are not into all the compiling and general tinkering involved with a source based distro like Gentoo. One thing I wounder though, is if you indeed have a new high end processor, why not just go all out with a source based distro? Considering compile times wont be much of an issue.

I would still prefer Gentoo because of the complete control given to the user for what is on the system and what each package can work with, not just the optomization. This is not always a big factor for people though.
 
one of the main reasons I stick with Slack is because they leave out PAM. With gentoo, if you try to do that, you won't even get to boot it up for the first time. It seems some people have the misconception pam is required for shadow to work, but its not, in gentoo, pam is required because they use cracklib for password checking, and they use pam to set that up. I really need to go digging around in the portage scripts to see if I can find a way around including pam durring install, cause its to big of security risk to me, even if its only on my home computer.
 
Tweakin said:
From the yoper site...


I think it's a good idea for people wanting an optomized-for-your-system distro but are not into all the compiling and general tinkering involved with a source based distro like Gentoo. One thing I wounder though, is if you indeed have a new high end processor, why not just go all out with a source based distro? Considering compile times wont be much of an issue.

I would still prefer Gentoo because of the complete control given to the user for what is on the system and what each package can work with, not just the optomization. This is not always a big factor for people though.
Click to expand...

For the stuff I have with Yoper, it took me 20 minutes to install, 2 hrs to customize. A gentoo stage 1 would have taken all weekend (friend did it with similar hardware). This gives me the performance, and the usability of source (unlike redhat and mandrake) if I choose, without being FORCED to compile everything.
 
Xipher said:
one of the main reasons I stick with Slack is because they leave out PAM. With gentoo, if you try to do that, you won't even get to boot it up for the first time. It seems some people have the misconception pam is required for shadow to work, but its not, in gentoo, pam is required because they use cracklib for password checking, and they use pam to set that up. I really need to go digging around in the portage scripts to see if I can find a way around including pam durring install, cause its to big of security risk to me, even if its only on my home computer.
Click to expand...


I'm not familiar with PAM. What is it?
 
sorry, what is the difference between a binary and ?non-binary? distribution?

Keep in mind I am retarded so some linux talk is over my head :p
 
Binary distro means you get every thing precompiled and packaged for you,
non-binary, or Source distrobutions are setup where you compile most or all of the system from source, as to get more proformance out of it, and normally more control of what is included.
 
Xipher said:
Binary distro means you get every thing precompiled and packaged for you,
non-binary, or Source distrobutions are setup where you compile most or all of the system from source, as to get more proformance out of it, and normally more control of what is included.
Click to expand...

Bingo. However, there's a grey zone in that most/all source-based distros also let you add binary packages.
They seldom have everything available as packages, though, unlike the binary ones.

(FreeBSD, while not a linux distro, is a good example. You can set up a normal system with only binary packages, but if you want the newest something, or something somewhat unusual, or a kernel/system-upgrade, it's compile time.)
 
so more user friendly distros like Fedora, Mandrake, & SUSE are binary packaged distros and distros like Gentoo are non binary and more advanced to set up?
 
carloswill said:
so more user friendly distros like Fedora, Mandrake, & SUSE are binary packaged distros and distros like Gentoo are non binary and more advanced to set up?
Click to expand...

Basically, yes.
Not that it's hard to compile something in gentoo (or FreeBSD), but source-based distros seem to attract people who value functionality over beginner-friendliness.
It shouldn't really be too hard to make a newbie-friendly source-based distro, but no such beast currently exists, IMO.

I did actually begin using FreeBSD, which is mostly source-based and doesn't give you fancy GUIs for, well, anything. Like gentoo, there's a lot of documentation, so it is possible to begin there. It just takes a lot more work to get your first (and second) working system up.
 
This is why there are now several optmized binary distros like Yoper, Arch, and JAMD. They provide precompiled packages that have some optimization already built-in. But more than just binary vs source, is having a good package manager that is smart enough top download what you want and all of the dependencies too. Apt-get and portage are examples of great package managers.

Yoper uses rpm's (standard for 98% of Linux out there), but they are optimized for i686 cpu's (P2 and up), they are stripped (useless code such as for debugging is removed). Yoper also tweaks up the latest linux kernels with some performace-enhancing patches. It seeks to be easy to use and does neat things like install nvidia 3d accelerated drivers out of the box. packages can are handfled by apt-get or its GUI front-ends such as synaptic.

AFAIK- Arch uses its own type of packages and package manager and is also i686 optimized. JAMD (if it still exists) is a spawn of redhat that is optimized for AMD CPU's but will still work on any i686.



Glad you like Yoper, lopoetve. I was shocked by how fast it installed, and performance has been pleasantly snappy. So when they asked, I joined the dev team. The amount of available packages is still a bit small, but that's because Yoper is also a very young distro and needs some more time to bulk up. Currently 9th place on distrowatch, right behind Gentoo for hits per day.
 
After reading this thread ealier, I downloaded the ISO and installed it...right now I'm using synaptic to install packages...seems ok so far.
 
For the stuff I have with Yoper, it took me 20 minutes to install, 2 hrs to customize. A gentoo stage 1 would have taken all weekend (friend did it with similar hardware). This gives me the performance, and the usability of source (unlike redhat and mandrake) if I choose, without being FORCED to compile everything.
Click to expand...

stage 1 all weekend? must have been a slow computer.. it only takes me 8 hours to do a stage 1 (bootstrap and emerge system). Even so.. there are stage 2 and 3 which take much less time. Seems yoper is a little better than other binary distros.. but it still sounds like a binary distro to me at heart...

forcing to compile actually optimizes it specifically for your system.. sure it may take a bit longer but the speed you gain is worth it IMO.

Maybe I just like to much control over my OS lol.. but for me source distro's are the way to go because you get only what you want.
 
Hmm...Im gonna have to try this out. Gentoo is a bit too advanced for me, yet Mandrake is too simple.
 
Gentoo....

running reiser4? check.
running latest kernel + ck patchset? check.
running blazing CFLAGS? check.
fluxbox? check.
NPTL? check.
udev? check.

Yopper's got nothin on it :D
 
black hole sun said:
Gentoo....

running reiser4? check.
running latest kernel + ck patchset? check.
running blazing CFLAGS? check.
fluxbox? check.
NPTL? check.
udev? check.

Yopper's got nothin on it :D
Click to expand...
i do like gentoo and was considering switching back to it from slackware, but decided on debian
what about any of those is gentoo specific though? you could do any and all just as well on any other distro, and with more learning involved, espeically with reiser4 installation. i am trying to figure out a way to get debian onto a reiser4 partition, its a bit hard considering the boot cd kernel doesnt have support for it...
i think i have it figured out though, involving a hacked together knoppix disk and a chroot install :D will try it later.
no offence to you, but that intrigues me a bit more than a simple emerge reiser4 or however it is done for you.
 
carloswill said:
I love Gentoo users :p

Remind me of MAC users :eek: ;)
Click to expand...

Naw...Debian users are the Mac Addicts of the Linux world...Gentoo users are more like the Hippies of the computer world ;)
 
hmm never thought of myself as a sexy hippie..

always just thought of myself as a samurai.. wait.. uhh i mean.. yeah
 
Your not really running Linux unless your using Bleeding Edge Linux from Scratch. :)

Binutils-2.15.91.0.1
Glibc 2.3.4-20040701 (with NPTL)
GCC-3.4.1
Udev
 
cloaked said:
i do like gentoo and was considering switching back to it from slackware, but decided on debian
what about any of those is gentoo specific though? you could do any and all just as well on any other distro, and with more learning involved, espeically with reiser4 installation. i am trying to figure out a way to get debian onto a reiser4 partition, its a bit hard considering the boot cd kernel doesnt have support for it...
i think i have it figured out though, involving a hacked together knoppix disk and a chroot install :D will try it later.
no offence to you, but that intrigues me a bit more than a simple emerge reiser4 or however it is done for you.
Click to expand...
It's certainly no walk-in-the-park! You can't just "emerge" a filesystem. You've got to get a livecd that has reiser4 enabled, and go through the painful install process.

UPDATING the reiser4 filesystem's a bitch too, that takes quite a bit of work.

But...since when did a distro's effectiveness get determined by how difficult it is to use? Portage is a wonderful program, so's debians pkg-get (forgot its name exactly). Things like portage are the way of linux's future - users shouldn't have to suffer through the old ./configure method, that would often fail due to incompatibility, lack of a certain patch, etc.

And soap, I've been meaning to try LFS. Installation-wise, is its setup similar to Gentoo's minus portage?
 
Soap said:
Your not really running Linux unless your using Bleeding Edge Linux from Scratch. :)

Binutils-2.15.91.0.1
Glibc 2.3.4-20040701 (with NPTL)
GCC-3.4.1
Udev
Click to expand...

FreeBSD 6.0-CURRENT
GCC 3.4.2
(binutils and libc follow the base system versioning)

The front line is where the fun is. :D
 
HHunt said:
FreeBSD 6.0-CURRENT
GCC 3.4.2
(binutils and libc follow the base system versioning)

The front line is where the fun is. :D
Click to expand...
That sure is bleeding edge, I hadn't even heard of FreeBSD 6 was in dev till I read that. Quick google to check and I even found the addopters guide.
 
Arkaine23 said:
This is why there are now several optmized binary distros like Yoper, Arch, and JAMD. They provide precompiled packages that have some optimization already built-in. But more than just binary vs source, is having a good package manager that is smart enough top download what you want and all of the dependencies too. Apt-get and portage are examples of great package managers.

Yoper uses rpm's (standard for 98% of Linux out there), but they are optimized for i686 cpu's (P2 and up), they are stripped (useless code such as for debugging is removed). Yoper also tweaks up the latest linux kernels with some performace-enhancing patches. It seeks to be easy to use and does neat things like install nvidia 3d accelerated drivers out of the box. packages can are handfled by apt-get or its GUI front-ends such as synaptic.

AFAIK- Arch uses its own type of packages and package manager and is also i686 optimized. JAMD (if it still exists) is a spawn of redhat that is optimized for AMD CPU's but will still work on any i686.



Glad you like Yoper, lopoetve. I was shocked by how fast it installed, and performance has been pleasantly snappy. So when they asked, I joined the dev team. The amount of available packages is still a bit small, but that's because Yoper is also a very young distro and needs some more time to bulk up. Currently 9th place on distrowatch, right behind Gentoo for hits per day.
Click to expand...

Um, it didn't come with working Nvidia drivers for anything more recent than the GF3... :confused:

Oh, and a suggestion: Install the kernel source by default :p

And how do I get Apt-get working?
 
devourment77 said:
stage 1 all weekend? must have been a slow computer.. it only takes me 8 hours to do a stage 1 (bootstrap and emerge system). Even so.. there are stage 2 and 3 which take much less time. Seems yoper is a little better than other binary distros.. but it still sounds like a binary distro to me at heart...

forcing to compile actually optimizes it specifically for your system.. sure it may take a bit longer but the speed you gain is worth it IMO.

Maybe I just like to much control over my OS lol.. but for me source distro's are the way to go because you get only what you want.
Click to expand...

You're telling me you emerged the base system, Xfree (or Xorg), kde, openoffice, etc in 8 hours?

I call shens. No way.

And what speed? Last I checked, gentoo was only gaining a few percentage points, if any, over an optomized binary distro :p
 
lopoetve said:
You're telling me you emerged the base system, Xfree (or Xorg), kde, openoffice, etc in 8 hours?

I call shens. No way.

And what speed? Last I checked, gentoo was only gaining a few percentage points, if any, over an optomized binary distro :p
Click to expand...
Maybe he uses a lighter window manager, such as gnome or fluxbox. And perhaps he used openoffice-bin instead of compiling it from source?

I can install gentoo on my machine in under 8 hours, easily.
 
LFS is easy to setup as long as you already know how to configure, compile, and install a typical gnu package. LFS is just a book, that goes step by step through the process. They also have a book for packages beyond a basic Linux system, for stuff like XOrg, gtk, gimp, etc.
 
black hole sun said:
Maybe he uses a lighter window manager, such as gnome or fluxbox. And perhaps he used openoffice-bin instead of compiling it from source?

I can install gentoo on my machine in under 8 hours, easily.
Click to expand...

No way you emerged xfree and a real working system with all the normal stuff in 8 hours.

With all the software I have installed, it would take me the better part of a weekend, and I've got much more important things to do.
 
lopoetve said:
No way you emerged xfree and a real working system with all the normal stuff in 8 hours.

With all the software I have installed, it would take me the better part of a weekend, and I've got much more important things to do.
Click to expand...

I could see 8 hours, depending upon the system (at a recent linux conf the gentoo guys had xfree compiled in 11 minutes on some uber box, forgot what it was). It takes me about 12 hours to get from Zero to Xfce4 + common applications (file managers, browsers, email, office, etc). As you can see I have a decent system, but it is by no means high end. Also, of that 12 hours I am required to be actually sitting at the computer reading the manual, configuring something, or typing a command about 2 hours. It works great if you start the installation a couple hours before you go to sleep :)

However, a couple weeks ago I installed a gentoo desktop on an old P3 550 machine with 256mb ram, that was a 3 day process.
 
Tweakin said:
I could see 8 hours, depending upon the system (at a recent linux conf the gentoo guys had xfree compiled in 11 minutes on some uber box, forgot what it was). It takes me about 12 hours to get from Zero to Xfce4 + common applications (file managers, browsers, email, office, etc). As you can see I have a decent system, but it is by no means high end. Also, of that 12 hours I am required to be actually sitting at the computer reading the manual, configuring something, or typing a command about 2 hours. It works great if you start the installation a couple hours before you go to sleep :)

However, a couple weeks ago I installed a gentoo desktop on an old P3 550 machine with 256mb ram, that was a 3 day process.
Click to expand...

If that's so, it's been massively improved since I last messed with it :D
 
i am sorry.. i have a dual xeon 2.6 OC to 3.4... with HT on each. It doesn't take me to long to compile. and i am sorry.. i said emerge system. i didn't say emerge xorg or kde or anything.. just emerge system..

I believe i said it took me 8 hours to bootstrap and emerge system.. not anything else.. emerge system is a command you have to run while installing, after you get that done (and some small other things) you reboot then emerge whatever you want.

how i timed it was i started "bootstrap.sh ; emerge system" went to work.. came back 8 hours later and it was finished.. for all i know it took less than 8 hours

No way you emerged xfree and a real working system with all the normal stuff in 8 hours.
Click to expand...

the system works just fine after i did it too..
 
devourment77 said:
i am sorry.. i have a dual xeon 2.6 OC to 3.4... with HT on each. It doesn't take me to long to compile. and i am sorry.. i said emerge system. i didn't say emerge xorg or kde or anything.. just emerge system..

I believe i said it took me 8 hours to bootstrap and emerge system.. not anything else.. emerge system is a command you have to run while installing, after you get that done (and some small other things) you reboot then emerge whatever you want.

how i timed it was i started "bootstrap.sh ; emerge system" went to work.. came back 8 hours later and it was finished.. for all i know it took less than 8 hours



the system works just fine after i did it too..
Click to expand...

Working system -> I can sit down and start programming or web browsing etc. :p

And yeah, you are a little PAST high end.
 
lopoetve said:
No way you emerged xfree and a real working system with all the normal stuff in 8 hours.

With all the software I have installed, it would take me the better part of a weekend, and I've got much more important things to do.
Click to expand...
Well, I have a functional X + ati drivers installed in 8 hours. Of course, I don't have k3b, xmms, open-office and all the other swag yet, but I didn't think we were talking about a complete system here, just the base.

And I certainly have a nice system. 3.06Ghz + hyperthreading and a gig of RAM.

You don't have to believe me, but it's true. I think the xorg install takes the longest, it takes ~2:30 hours. Fluxbox takes under 20 minutes, though.

Mind you this is all from stage 1. If I used, say, a stage 3, I could cut down the time to ~4 hours at the price of a bit less performance.
 
Xipher said:
That sure is bleeding edge, I hadn't even heard of FreeBSD 6 was in dev till I read that. Quick google to check and I even found the addopters guide.
Click to expand...


I thought it was a typo when my system came up as 6-CURRENT after the reboot. :D
 
black hole sun said:
Well, I have a functional X + ati drivers installed in 8 hours. Of course, I don't have k3b, xmms, open-office and all the other swag yet, but I didn't think we were talking about a complete system here, just the base.

And I certainly have a nice system. 3.06Ghz + hyperthreading and a gig of RAM.

You don't have to believe me, but it's true. I think the xorg install takes the longest, it takes ~2:30 hours. Fluxbox takes under 20 minutes, though.

Mind you this is all from stage 1. If I used, say, a stage 3, I could cut down the time to ~4 hours at the price of a bit less performance.
Click to expand...

I don't know about you, but I don't have more than an hour or two MAX for a complete system install. There is not anywhere near a significant enough boost in performance for me to justify compiling everything. I had Yoper up, with video and everything but sound, in 2 hours. And most of that was dinking around with the nVidia drivers. Everything total was 3 hrs or so, for a total working system with everything that I needed.

You'd still be compiling, or have just Xfree up.
 
sure it will take longer for gentoo users.. but they will not just have i686 binarys either like yoper.. they will have processor specific binaries (compiled by source) for there system, including all the instruction set enhancements per cpu type.

not saying yoper is bad.. just saying it isn't optimized for your system anymore than redhat or slackware.. it is just using i686 binaries instead of i486 (slack)..

I understand that you are super busy i guess.. and can only do a 2 hour max install.. but if you would just give 6 more hours.. your system would be faster and optimized.
 
devourment77 said:
sure it will take longer for gentoo users.. but they will not just have i686 binarys either like yoper.. they will have processor specific binaries (compiled by source) for there system, including all the instruction set enhancements per cpu type.

not saying yoper is bad.. just saying it isn't optimized for your system anymore than redhat or slackware.. it is just using i686 binaries instead of i486 (slack)..

I understand that you are super busy i guess.. and can only do a 2 hour max install.. but if you would just give 6 more hours.. your system would be faster and optimized.
Click to expand...

Care to find some benchmarks that show Gentoo being that much faster in comparison to other distros? I sure haven't seen any. In fact, I've seen many cases where it's slower due to over-optomizing. Or unstable. Or just plain broken.

I see no worth in it at all. The few percent you can gain isn't worth the hours it takes to find those percentage points. Why is that 3-5% that important?

And yes, as Arkaine pointed out (and he's on the bloody devel team), Yoper IS faster, they cut out a lot of the debugging crap and extra overhead, and still leave it binary. There are optomizations between i486 and i686. Tons of them, in fact.

EDIT: I did your work for you. Searched, and there are NO conclusive benchmarks that show Gentoo as faster than Mandrake, RedHat, or ANY binary distro. Prelinking, yes, but that's not the point. Straight compile doesn't gain you anything but control, and that has been the Gentoo credence for the longest time anyway: Control and advanced customization, NOT optimizations. You'll be hard pressed to find places where gentoo can significantly beat out the opposition. Sorry. There is no reason for me to waste my time compiling all that stuff. I've never seen the need for that much customization on my installs.

http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/performance.xml
 
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