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Well, a dumb question about ESD...please...help!

I

ImLazZzy

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
488
I don't know how to put it but this really bothers me: I touched my aluminum case with a ESD...felt a tiny spark going off and it made my computer out of sleep. Everything has seemed fine so far after that but Im worried it might have slightly damaged some components inside. Do you think it is possible and how I actually go about testing it out? Any pointers would be appreciated!
 
You should be fine. Don't even worry about it, strange things can happen.
 
I agree with Talon you should be fine. Getting a shock on the case means nothing, getting a shock when your touching a component is very bad. However, if you can feel the spark, then that is enough to damage your components. ...but as I said earlier since it shocked on the case and not components you should be fine.

If there was a problem, your computer most likely wouldn't be able to run windows.
 
Retail products go through ESD testing you wouldn't believe. It takes a lot to kill something in a chassis. Bringing it out of "sleep" with a good zap doesn't surprise me, but I'll be nothing got permanantly damaged.

Rock on - B.B.S.
 
Thanks guys...that's really reassuring! As far as I know, CMOS circuit boards such as the processor, memory and HDD are especially susceptible to ESD. I couldve got some performance tests running to see if any difference, but since I just built it up from the ground, I haven't even got a chance running 3D Mark 05 on it yet. I was worried about the zap might kill a memory cell or two or maybe a couple tiny transisitors here there and the damage may not prevent the computer from running just yet but it could have an impact on the performance. I know I am extemely paranoid when dealing with performance issues. But I guess my computer should be fine after all -- I just worry too much. Damn! it woke it up....

edit: several typos corrected.
 
ImLazZzy said:
Thanks guys...that's really reassuring! As far as I know, CMOS circuit boards such as the processor, memory and HDD are especially susceptible to ESD. I couldve got some performance tests running to see if any difference, but since I just build it up from the ground, I haven't even got a chance running PC Mark 05 on it yet. I was worried about the zap might kill a memory cell or two or maybe a couple tiny transisitors here there and the damage may not prevent the computer from running just yet but it could have an impact on the performance. I know I am extemely paranoid when dealing with performance issues. But I guess my computer should be fine after all -- I just worry too much. Damn! it woke it up....
Click to expand...
Electronics usually either work or they don't....especially micro electronics. If "some transistors" die it is likely the whole computer wouldn't even post. Everything in an modern computer device has to be absolutely perfect to function...

I am not saying that it is impossible for it to work after such damage...I am just saying it is highly unlikely.
 
That definitely makes sense. I've heard you could have some dead memory cells while the computer is still running all right. Any idea what exactly ESD did to bring the computer out of its 'sleep'? My computer was grounded so I'd assume the discharge only went through the case...
 
Leright said:
Electronics usually either work or they don't....especially micro electronics. If "some transistors" die it is likely the whole computer wouldn't even post. Everything in an modern computer device has to be absolutely perfect to function...

I am not saying that it is impossible for it to work after such damage...I am just saying it is highly unlikely.
Click to expand...
...not true.

I've seen electron microscope shots of gate oxides that have been pummeled with ESD. You can easily partially perforate the gate oxide and increase leakage and gate current, which means more heat, which means more leakage, which means.....the part will fail prematurely.

With older devices, your statement is true, but with newer small geometry CMOS parts.....you can hurt them and they'll still work....for a while.

ImLazZzy said:
.....Any idea what exactly ESD did to bring the computer out of its 'sleep'?
Click to expand...
PC's are "edge triggered" devices, meaning when a logic line transitions from high -> low or low -> high, the system sees that as an event it should pay attention to. You could have easily launched a "rising edge" on a control line which the machine mistakenly thought was a valid logic signal meaning "wake up". I think the prospect of any long term damage in your case is pretty remote......

FWIW - B.B.S.
 
BlindedByScience said:
...not true.

I've seen electron microscope shots of gate oxides that have been pummeled with ESD. You can easily partially perforate the gate oxide and increase leakage and gate current, which means more heat, which means more leakage, which means.....the part will fail prematurely.

With older devices, your statement is true, but with newer small geometry CMOS parts.....you can hurt them and they'll still work....for a while.


PC's are "edge triggered" devices, meaning when a logic line transitions from high -> low or low -> high, the system sees that as an event it should pay attention to. You could have easily launched a "rising edge" on a control line which the machine mistakenly thought was a valid logic signal meaning "wake up". I think the prospect of any long term damage in your case is pretty remote......

FWIW - B.B.S.
Click to expand...

Nice!
BBS sure knows his stuff! :p
 
Atrye said:
Indeed. Where did you learn that stuff BBS?
Click to expand...
...you guys are too flattering.

Well, an EE degree and about twenty+ years of "letting the smoke out" taught me a lot. I'm employed by a "really big" company as a hardware design engineer.....:cool: Now, I get paid to occasionally let the smoke out....

I never claim to know "everything" but I do know a couple of things.....:D

Best regards - B.B.S.
 
PC's are "edge triggered" devices, meaning when a logic line transitions from high -> low or low -> high, the system sees that as an event it should pay attention to. You could have easily launched a "rising edge" on a control line which the machine mistakenly thought was a valid logic signal meaning "wake up". I think the prospect of any long term damage in your case is pretty remote......
Click to expand...
Too bad I slept through my computer architecture classes. Could you please explain it a little further, BBS? What are "logic line transitions"? And what exactly is the underlying mechanism for "putting a computer to sleep/stand by" and "waking it up" as we say it? As far as I know, every I/O device generates interrupts or electric pulses. So the motherborad mistaked ESD for one keystroke on my keyboard, maybe? How could ESD get to the motherboard? Thanks!
 
ImLazZzy said:
Too bad I slept through my computer architecture classes. Could you please explain it a little further, BBS? What are "logic line transitions"? And what exactly is the underlying mechanism for "putting a computer to sleep/stand by" and "waking it up" as we say it? As far as I know, every I/O device generates interrupts or electric pulses. So the motherborad mistaked ESD for one keystroke on my keyboard, maybe? How could ESD get to the motherboard? Thanks!
Click to expand...
A logic line transition is taking one of the many signals on the bus from a "0" (usually very close to 0 volts) to a "1" (1.5 / 3.3 / 5.0 volts, depending on the bus).....or, going the other way; from a "1" to a "0".

Modern PC's have several power management states; that is, they can go to "sleep" while retaining their operational state such that they can be brought back to operation very quickly. For example, a PC can go to sleep and then be "waken up" by a specific packet by a still network aware ethernet connection. This ability to "stand by" can really save big dinero when it comes to the power bill.

How...?? In addition to the address / data lines and the CBE (command byte enable) signals / bits, there are "sideband" signals that are single bit logic lines, used by the platform for different purposes. There's a signal (single line) on the PCI bus called "PME" for "power management event". It allows devices on the bus to "wake up" the machine, or transition it from being "asleep" to "awake". In the example I mentioned above, the ethrnet connection would assert a "1" on this line, which would wake up the PC and get things rolling again.

In your case, I'm guessing that the 'zap' could have easily been mistaken for some device on the bus trying to assert PME.

This was a very quick and basic explanation. If you want to dig in more, there is a TON of info on the web about PCI bus archetecture and power management.

Regards - B.B.S.
 
Wow...that was a great crush course, thanks! So the zap did get on the system bus somehow. The zap voltage could be much higher than 5 volts. What a big "1" it made there! Hopefully the system bus didn't get hit too hard. My MB has PCIe bus.
 
Well, back in High School, or was it Junior High, anyway, back in the late 80's or early 90's, I picked up my joystick and felt a terrific ESD. The joystick worked fine after that, but the game port on my 286-12 didn't. I had to buy a new I/O card. I was "shocked" to learn that the joystick itself withstood a shock that the port on my machine couldn't. That's what comes of wearing socks on a dry day on shag carpet.......

So, even just a little ESD can really screw with hardware, even if it's in a properly grounded case! Still, in over 15 years of working with computers, that's the only static damage I can report!
 
You sure got that right, dude! Im still blaming myself for being such a careless slob...
 
BlindedByScience said:
...not true.

I've seen electron microscope shots of gate oxides that have been pummeled with ESD. You can easily partially perforate the gate oxide and increase leakage and gate current, which means more heat, which means more leakage, which means.....the part will fail prematurely.

With older devices, your statement is true, but with newer small geometry CMOS parts.....you can hurt them and they'll still work....for a while.


PC's are "edge triggered" devices, meaning when a logic line transitions from high -> low or low -> high, the system sees that as an event it should pay attention to. You could have easily launched a "rising edge" on a control line which the machine mistakenly thought was a valid logic signal meaning "wake up". I think the prospect of any long term damage in your case is pretty remote......

FWIW - B.B.S.
Click to expand...

dead transistors are different from partially working transistors...
 
It's also very possible that it was something as simple as you bumping your mouse without realizing it.
 
So. You lose a transistor here or there, the computer could never notice depending if its buried in some unused circuitry on the soundcard for example. Unlikely, but it happens.

Leright said:
dead transistors are different from partially working transistors...
Click to expand...
 
Whatsisname said:
It's also very possible that it was something as simple as you bumping your mouse without realizing it.
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure my mouse was sitting there still.....
 
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