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WCing a Mini P180

C

Caddish

Weaksauce
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
84
I am dreaming about WCing my rig since I have seen that thread but then I realised he cut off the top of the case which I don't wanna do. So I'm trying to find a way to do a internal CPU/GPU loop. The goal is to have a little challenge and if possible a near silent case when idling/downloading so I can let it run while I sleep without modding the exterior of the case.

The only idea I have for the rad is : (I don't even know if that exist):
  • 200.1 rad or 82.4 rad or 4x82.1 rad with 8x82mm in push-pull config
  • high FPI 120.2 with 4x120mm in push-pull config but looking at his picture I don't think it would fit with the middle drive bay
With a 5.25 bay reservoir and a pomp under the drive bay like him

Does it look doable, any suggestion? I can laser cut custom plate to fasten the fan/rad for free but I'm concerned about room.
 
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If it were me...i would lose the upper hard drive cage, and that small divider, and put a good 2x120 rad standing up, up front, and use the two front intakes to give it fresh air, as well as fitting a smaller 120mm rad on the rear exhaust. That would be enough to cool a CPU and GPU. I did this to an Antec P182 and it worked very well to cool an OCed e6700 and a GTX260, and that was with dead silent fans. I used a Swiftech MCR220 and a 120 Black Ice Stealth with Scythe S-Flexs on a controller to below 1000rpms. It technically wasnt totally internal, the 120mm rad was mounted to the back, but the barbs went through the case so it was just the small rad on the back.

I realize its not totally feasible for everyone to lose the upper HDD cage...but you can use the two 5.25 bays with noise dampening adapters for the HDDs and grab an external optical drive. I planned mine like that from the very beginning though.
 
That would be a good option. There would be 30cm of clearance for the 120.2 although that would push hot air in the case, loose 3x3.5 and 1x5.25 bay and would it really perform better than this config with a third much more powerful fan under the rad (noise is not that much of a concern as I prefer a practical case than a silent case). Also the door is full I'm not sure how much air can pass through the side

When you say enough to cool CPU/GPU, can I do a good overclock and still have better temp than on air ?
 
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Airflow with the door is fine, it has vents on the side. The warm air going into the case wont be such a big deal since the cool air will be cooling the water that cools the cpu and/or gpu. If you are only doing the single 2x120, then im not so sure youll be able to include the GPU.

As far as the OCing...you can get really good overclocks on air with a TRUE or similar, but you generally need a decent speed fan...which is noise. Water on the other hand will generally net you even better overclocks with low speed fans, provided you have the rad surface area. 3x120mm should be sufficient to cool both, with a decent OC. That can be one big rad, or two smaller...doesnt matter really...important thing is the surface area. Also, my setup may be an exception since my rad is beyond overkill for what i have...but there really isnt much difference between 800rpms with the S-Flexs and 1600rpms. Maybe a degree or two at best. I get a better cooling effect by running my pump at speed 5 VS 3.
 
Thanks nissanztt90 I guess I'm going for High CFM and FPI what do you think of this (everything as been measured manually or taken from spec)
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7106/config1.png

2 of those crazy fan http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=36_316&products_id=27344
1 Black Ice GTX 280 since it's the biggest I can do internally
1 MCP355
One of those two reservoir or any one that mount on 140mm rad.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/9...rvoir_BP-WTZM150P-BK.html?tl=g30c97s165#blank
http://www.dangerden.com/store/danger-den-rad-reservoir.html

-Do you think the tubing will be doable with a CPU and GPU block
-How does the GTX perform compared to the slim version
-How does the 280mm perform compared to the 240mm version
-I've seen some bleeding and vortex issue with those kind of reservoir should I be worried ?
-Any suggestion ... ?
 
I cant really comment on how the rad performs, but i do know the GTX series isnt really the best rad. Check out skinneelabs.com for all kinds of WC reviews. Its not bad, i just feel there are better options....im really liking the XSPC RX series...though i dont think that comes in the 140mm flavor. The high FPI means you really need some fast fans, but then again you dont care about noise. Im sure the tubing is do-able, you just have to be a little creative. Not sure about the resevoir either.
 
nissanztt90 said:
I cant really comment on how the rad performs, but i do know the GTX series isnt really the best rad. Check out skinneelabs.com for all kinds of WC reviews. Its not bad, i just feel there are better options....im really liking the XSPC RX series...though i dont think that comes in the 140mm flavor. The high FPI means you really need some fast fans, but then again you dont care about noise. Im sure the tubing is do-able, you just have to be a little creative. Not sure about the resevoir either.
Click to expand...

Thank's that's pretty much what I though since I'm limited to dual rad I kinda do not have the choice to go for high CFM/FPI also the cool thing about the GTX-280 is that if fit exactly in the case.
There is 2mm interference on the top (I might have to cut the metal sheet but not the plastic cover which is cool) and few mm wasted on the side. Plus according to this test the improvement from 120 to 140mm seem not negligeable http://www.xtremesystems.org/Forums/showthread.php?t=210081
My main concern is the tubing that's going to be tight :p. Let's go I want another person telling me the tubing is doable and I jump.

[edit] I don't understand all the hate around the GTX series according to every review from 1400 rpm and over they perform very similarly to other rad. Is it because they are too much restrictive or because they are too popular ?
[edit2] I see they are very restrictive but I wonder if the flow improvement going to a PA120.2 would be worth loosing that 40mm of surface
 
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They are restrictive and have high fin density is why i dont like it. Most people i think watercool for overclocking and silence, and while that series radiator does perform pretty much the best with the right fans...to most people the loud fans and marginal improvement arent worth it. The only advantage really is the size...

I noticed with my setup that pump speed/flow rate had a much bigger impact than fan speed, so you want the least restriction you can get.
 
In the end I have no choice, I can't find the GTX240 in canada so I'm kinda torn between
Feser One X-240 100$
Thermochill PA120.2. 77$​

New config http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1350/config2b.png

I'm also clueless about :
  • GPU water block (could not find any test) :
    Ek Water Blocks EK-FC 5850
    Swiftech KOMODO-HD5800 5870 & 5850
    Koolance VID-AR587 DOES IT FIT 5850?​
  • How to change fan RPM
  • How to purge the loop
  • Where to find distilled water
  • Where to find PT nuke or similar

Here is my almost finished shooping list http://www.mediafire.com/?mh0lzlyzylj
If you see anything wrong feel free to post

Also if anybody find a 280rad or a xspc top MCP-355 used I'm very interested
 
If you can find an XSPC RX240 id go with that instead of the other two...they are essentially the same and perform the same but i think the RX240 would be cheaper...again...not sure about pricing or availablity in Canada though.

For a GPU waterblock you have some options...you have the full cover block, you have a stand alone GPU water block and you would need some ram sinks, or you can get a stand alone Swiftech GPU block and pair it with this: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_240_582&products_id=27320 . I did that with my GTX260 except i used DTek parts. I think this sort of offers the best of a full coverblock and standalone GPU, since GPU blocks can usually be reused while full cover blocks cant.

For changing fan rpm you need a fan controller...i use the Zalman Fanmate with two fans per controller. If you had room you could use a bay controller.

Purging the loop will essentially be done by the resevoir once its up and running.

In the US distilled water is available in just about every grocery store.

I dont use PT nuke, or any anti-anything, no silver...nothing. Just straight distilled water. If you use all copper stuff youll be fine, and most things are copper now anyway. I had a distilled water loop set up for over a year and when i emptied it it was still perfectly clear...no growth, no corrosion, nothing. Id recommend a silver kill coil before an additive.
 
If you can find an XSPC RX240 id go with that instead of the other two...they are essentially the same and perform the same but i think the RX240 would be cheaper...again...not sure about pricing or availablity in Canada though.
Click to expand...
Not available in Canada :( here is what they have http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?minorcatid=1165&subminorcatid=165
I'll consider it if i buy some part in the USA

For a GPU waterblock you have some options...you have the full cover block, you have a stand alone GPU water block and you would need some ram sinks, or you can get a stand alone Swiftech GPU block and pair it with this: http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...oduct_info&cPath=59_240_582&products_id=27320 . I did that with my GTX260 except i used DTek parts. I think this sort of offers the best of a full coverblock and standalone GPU, since GPU blocks can usually be reused while full cover blocks cant.
Click to expand...
I agree the GPU water block is cheaper. But I'm scared the tubing will give me a hard time also I was hoping to free up the pcie 4x port for a low profile card with the metal bracket cut off, am I dreaming?

For changing fan rpm you need a fan controller...i use the Zalman Fanmate with two fans per controller. If you had room you could use a bay controller.
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Is it possible to link the fan say to the cpu fan speed so that it slow down when the PC is idling ?

Purging the loop will essentially be done by the resevoir once its up and running.
Click to expand...

Sorry I meant emptying the fluid

In the US distilled water is available in just about every grocery store.

I dont use PT nuke, or any anti-anything, no silver...nothing. Just straight distilled water. If you use all copper stuff youll be fine, and most things are copper now anyway. I had a distilled water loop set up for over a year and when i emptied it it was still perfectly clear...no growth, no corrosion, nothing. Id recommend a silver kill coil before an additive.
Click to expand...
Good thanks for the help
 
That's a good point and I would choose a 200mm rad with the perf of the other 120.2 rad anytime but the fact that it has 1/3 more surface while being 30-50$ cheaper make me worry about the performance. Also it's aluminium + the big boy does not push much pressure so with a rad in front of it it won't perform very well.

And by the way I'm not breaking anything in the case, I 'm just drilling a couple rivet probably around 9 + a couple bolt. The only thing that really piss me off is the DVD bay going out. Anyway gonna be funny to see that much tube in such a small case

Thank's for challenging my choice it helps me take a decision
 
Caddish said:
I agree the GPU water block is cheaper. But I'm scared the tubing will give me a hard time also I was hoping to free up the pcie 4x port for a low profile card with the metal bracket cut off, am I dreaming?
Click to expand...

Cant quite visualize what your talking about...if you can elaborate a bit more i might be able to help.


Caddish said:
Is it possible to link the fan say to the cpu fan speed so that it slow down when the PC is idling ?
Click to expand...

I dont think so. To do that you would need to use the PWM port, which i highly doubt has enough current to supply multiple fans. Not the running current, but the startup current. Keep in mind...ive said several times that fan speed didnt have a significant effect on temps for me...only pump speed. To put that into numbers...between 800rpm and 1500rpm with the S-Flexs i noticed maybe 1-2 degeers at 4.0ghz and really burning the CPU with IBT. Going from pump speed 3 to 5 however netted me 4-5 degrees.


Caddish said:
Sorry I meant emptying the fluid
Click to expand...

If you use a fillport, flip the case upside down and let it drain, then find a section of tubing with no fluid, and start pulling it apart...and go from there while being careful not to spill in your case or components. When you build your loop, take draining into consideration. I dont mean incorporate a drain...you can if you want..just saying consider it. The second loop i ever made i didnt take ease of dissassembly into consideration, and it turned into a small bit of a pain in the ass with the way i had everything set up.

If you have a resevoir...dismount it and let it drain outside the case. Not to criticize or anything, but if you can build and put together a WC loop successfully, you should be able to figure out how to take it apart :p.


BloodyIron said:
Okay so, what's wrong with using this as a primary rad and maybe slapping a single 120 rad on the rear exhaust? seems to me like this could be better than a double and a single rad setup? and you have to rip less shit out of the case.

man do i want to do this now.
Click to expand...

Main issue is its aluminum. Mixing copper (most rads and waterblocks) and aluminum requires anti-corrosion additives. Really not a huge deal...but the less additives the better. Im also somewhat skeptical that the Antec rad will be anywhere near as good as the rads hes looking at. Surface area isnt everything. As far as ripping stuff out...well...simplicity is nice...but hell...were watercoolin here!
 
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Cant quite visualize what your talking about...if you can elaborate a bit more i might be able to help.
Click to expand...
I'll try to be clearer but English is not my first language and it's a pain to be clear.
The Inlet/Outlet of the GPU block is aimed straight to where I intend to put the pump which scares me a little. Look at the pic I posted it should be easier to understand

The other thing I'm talking about is that the 5850 is dual slot so it cover my only pci-e 4x slot. So I was hoping that the fulle cover block which has it's exhaust aimed toward the top of the case would make the 5850 single slot. But since the second dvi plug is also on the second slot I would have to remove the metal bracket of the extension card. Or I could use a PCIe riser card



I dont think so. To do that you would need to use the PWM port, which i highly doubt has enough current to supply multiple fans. Not the running current, but the startup current. Keep in mind...ive said several times that fan speed didnt have a significant effect on temps for me...only pump speed. To put that into numbers...between 800rpm and 1500rpm with the S-Flexs i noticed maybe 1-2 degeers at 4.0ghz and really burning the CPU with IBT. Going from pump speed 3 to 5 however netted me 4-5 degrees.
Click to expand...
Understood. I was thinking that it could not hurt to make them full speed while gaming since noise is not a problem while gaming. And to make them slower while idling so it make less noise. I'll try to see if I can find a cheap fan controller.



If you use a fillport, flip the case upside down and let it drain, then find a section of tubing with no fluid, and start pulling it apart...and go from there while being careful not to spill in your case or components. When you build your loop, take draining into consideration. I dont mean incorporate a drain...you can if you want..just saying consider it. The second loop i ever made i didnt take ease of dissassembly into consideration, and it turned into a small bit of a pain in the ass with the way i had everything set up.
Click to expand...
That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'll probably do pump>rad>cpu>vga>res. So i'm kinda scared that emptying the rad will be a pain

If you have a resevoir...dismount it and let it drain outside the case. Not to criticize or anything, but if you can build and put together a WC loop successfully, you should be able to figure out how to take it apart :p.
Click to expand...
Damn right



Main issue is its aluminum. Mixing copper (most rads and waterblocks) and aluminum requires anti-corrosion additives. Really not a huge deal...but the less additives the better. Im also somewhat skeptical that the Antec rad will be anywhere near as good as the rads hes looking at. Surface area isnt everything. As far as ripping stuff out...well...simplicity is nice...but hell...were watercoolin here!
Click to expand...
Yup don't know why but I don't thrust the performance of that rad
 
Caddish said:
I'll try to be clearer but English is not my first language and it's a pain to be clear.
The Inlet/Outlet of the GPU block is aimed straight to where I intend to put the pump which scares me a little. Look at the pic I posted it should be easier to understand
Click to expand...

No problem. Pretty sure i know what you mean. If your worried about bending the tubes...your options are either anti-kink coils, which are sturdy coils that wrap around tubing to keep their circular form, or, 45/90 adapters. Both of them increase pressure drop...90* more so than both, obviously. Avoid them if you can, though its not a huge deal if you incorporate one, especially with the 655.

Caddish said:
The other thing I'm talking about is that the 5850 is dual slot so it cover my only pci-e 4x slot. So I was hoping that the fulle cover block which has it's exhaust aimed toward the top of the case would make the 5850 single slot. But since the second dvi plug is also on the second slot I would have to remove the metal bracket of the extension card. Or I could use a PCIe riser card
Click to expand...

If im understanding this correctly, if your using the 5850 which needs both slots for the DVI ports...then you will not be able to use your PCI-e 4x spot with out some sort of adapter. If that PCIe 4x means something...seek another graphics card with DVIs next to each other instead of two slots...up and down.



Caddish said:
Understood. I was thinking that it could not hurt to make them full speed while gaming since noise is not a problem while gaming. And to make them slower while idling so it make less noise. I'll try to see if I can find a cheap fan controller.
Click to expand...

Wont hurt one bit. But...Ive been trying to beat this into your head though...fan speed doesnt matter a whole lot if you have a decent rad. Get a rad designed for low speed fans...and buy some low speed fans...and you wont have to worry about a controller. The two you listed should be fine though for low fan speed application. Lower fin density is NOT a bad thing. In the Skinneelabs test...the real high fin density doesnt mean shit unless your running 1500+ RPM fans...and even then...its like a one degree air/water delta. Not even a 1 degree CPU temp improvement.


Caddish said:
That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'll probably do pump>rad>cpu>vga>res. So i'm kinda scared that emptying the rad will be a pain
Click to expand...

Thats a good loop order. I personally like having the pump draw from the resevoir. Emptying the rad i cant really tell you exactly how to do...only thing i can say is break the WC line away from electric components!

Additionally...the performance of the aluminum rad is probably fine...but the price and hassle is likely not worth the performance...stick with the traditional brass/copper rads like weve been discussing.
 
Well thank's for the help I've ordered everything yesterday it should be here in a week :D.

I'm already starting to regret a little :|. I have moved the HD's from the very well insulated drive bay (HD are standing vertically on 1/4" rubber grommet) to the bottom of the case and now the HD is incredibly noisy.

Do you know if those thing are noisy ? http://www.icydock.com/product/mb453spf.html .

I also understood that the T in 650TX stand for Too much cable to close the door. Anybody want a 2 month old Corsair 650TX, I'll do it for 2/3 market value + shipping.
 
Caddish said:
Well thank's for the help I've ordered everything yesterday it should be here in a week :D.

I'm already starting to regret a little :|. I have moved the HD's from the very well insulated drive bay (HD are standing vertically on 1/4" rubber grommet) to the bottom of the case and now the HD is incredibly noisy.

Do you know if those thing are noisy ? http://www.icydock.com/product/mb453spf.html .

I also understood that the T in 650TX stand for Too much cable to close the door. Anybody want a 2 month old Corsair 650TX, I'll do it for 2/3 market value + shipping.
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How did you mount them in the 5.25in bays?

Use one of these HDD silencers...

http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...85_127&zenid=0f8653bdf8828bdb84cacfa3ec3dc3bf

I personally use the Scythe model, and they ONLY thing i can hear coming from the HDD is when it spins up and spins down, the change in frequency is audible to me, but onces its spinning at its target speed i cant hardly hear it, and i have an aluminum Lian-Li case. When i used them in my Antec P182 you couldnt hear them if you tried. There are several other designs that will likely work just the same.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...roduct_info&cPath=60_485_127&products_id=4475
 
:facepalm They are laying on the ground with rubber grommet between them :p. I thought there was adapter included with the case but I was wrong. Thank's again that look nice
 
I've received almost everything from direct canada (they forgot the 2 fan :(). I was about to mount everything like I initially planned but my father feels like it's stupid to shoot hot air onto the res and into the case. How hot is the air after the rad. He think I should remove the 200mm fan and put the rad there shooting air from the case to the outside. The opening on top of the case is slightly smaller than the rad itself so it would restrict a little the air flow.

What do you think?
 
That turned out pretty good. I suggest removing the fans from the CPU header and putting them on a manual controller. I use the Zalman Fanmates, but i also bought them when they were 3 bucks a piece. I also suggest flipping your fans around for two reasons.

Regarding your previous post that i never answered (never saw it for some reason). If you have the fans sucking in you are drawing cool fresh air over the radiator fins, which is whats cooling your CPU and GPU, as opposed to heat from inside the case going over the radiator fins. Your top exhaust fan and rear exhaust fan will pull the warmer air out that it put off by the radiator. Secondly, you have all fans blowing out of your case, creating a high negative pressure...all the fans are fighting for air and the air flow inside is basically terrible...the air sort of stagnates. You need to turn the two front fans around so they are blowing in.The warm air over the res is not ideal, but thats the way it goes.
 
nissanztt90 said:
That turned out pretty good. I suggest removing the fans from the CPU header and putting them on a manual controller. I use the Zalman Fanmates, but i also bought them when they were 3 bucks a piece. I also suggest flipping your fans around for two reasons.
Click to expand...

It's on my to do list. I'm tempted by a miniNG to also slow down the pump on iddle automatically cause she's noisy.

nissanztt90 said:
Regarding your previous post that i never answered (never saw it for some reason). If you have the fans sucking in you are drawing cool fresh air over the radiator fins, which is whats cooling your CPU and GPU, as opposed to heat from inside the case going over the radiator fins. Your top exhaust fan and rear exhaust fan will pull the warmer air out that it put off by the radiator. Secondly, you have all fans blowing out of your case [the 120mm in the back is blowing in], creating a high negative pressure...all the fans are fighting for air and the air flow inside is basically terrible...the air sort of stagnates. You need to turn the two front fans around so they are blowing in.The warm air over the res is not ideal, but thats the way it goes.
Click to expand...
I half agree with you. Because it's true that outside air is probably a good 1 to 3C colder than case air but the air after passing through the rad is surprisingly warm (I actually use it to warm my hand). Since there is already a temp in HWMonitor that reach 70C (I'm guessing northbridge or some chipset) as soon as I overclock/stress test I'm kinda worried to shoot warm air on the mobo. About negative pressure the case has enough hole in the back that air is coming in fairly fast from everywhere it can so I doubt the negative pressure is that bad(@1600rpm I can feel a lot of air coming from every hole and my ear bleed)

As long as I use only the CPU or GPU temp are awesome. Although when I stressed both I got something like 88C for the CPU and 65C GPU at 3.8ghz (room temp 18C). I'm thinking of adding another 120.2 for fun :p

By the way you were right slowing the fan did not have as much impact as I expected on temp but my ear are damn happier at 500rpm :p.
 
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The problem isnt so much the negative pressure as your starving the rad for fresh air. The warm air inside the case is fine as long as there is airflow.
 
You might be right but it would piss off my father if I thrust more the internet than him :p

Anyway with 3 fan blowing out I doubt the air has time to warm that much and the flow in the rad might drop a little due to negative pressure but not significantly. Although if you find some bench testing impact of airflow direction I'm interested.
 
Ok but consider all the air flow area you have exhausting air...3 x 120mm fans and 1 x 140mm fan...figure out that square area, and then consider how much area you have going in through those little holes. Pretty bad choke, and a very unneccesary thing to do.
 
Lol good one, yesterday I tryed to cool my hand on the intake fan and suprise warm air was coming out, tryed the big boy ... warm hair was coming out :p. Turns out all 4 fan were exhausting air :facepalm. So I turned around both fan in the upper left corner so that they blow air inside the case and the two on the radiator to exhaust air and now my load temp have droped 20C :)
 
;)

Considering typical case layout (dont remember what case your using)...ideally you want the intakes to be in the front...and exhaust to be near the upper/back since heat rises.

With all 4 fans trying to flow air in...it has to flow out somewhere...its simple physics...its either going out through the little holes...and if its backed up enough...the fans will get to a point where they may not be doing anything and trying to go out of the intakes...as you experienced.
 
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