Waterclox critique

A

Aerobahn

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Messages
410
I have nailed this so far

2x BIX
MCP600 pump
MCW6002 CPU
Cyclone Fusion GPU (silverprop)
Dangerden maze4
1/2ID 3/4 tubing
Waterwetter
Frozencpu dye
Metal Wormclamps
Distilled water
Critcool rez~

Any problems with the above setup?

My system specs are as follows
9800pro
2.8C gpu
I875p mobo

I plan to set it up like the picture below, is this ok? I plan to do a moderate overclock of both my CPU and GPU. (200-400 mhz on the CPU. 30-50 on the GPU)
cf1006_right.jpg
 
What do you need 2 radiators for? Thats just going to add way too much restriction to that loop for the MCP600 to handle, cutting your waterflow down signifigantly. However, if you are really set on doing that, I would go with a stronger pump than the MCP600. If you want to stay 12V, take a look at Danger Den's 12V pump they sell (its a Laing D4). That thing packs a punch. If not, you might want to look at an Eheim 1250 or 1046 I believe it is. Or a Danner Mag 5. I just really think that 2 radiators would be too restrictive for that pump, with limited benefit. But, thats my opinion. Hope this was at least a little helpful. :eek:
 
I agree about the two radiators thing. Get one larger one that will be on the top of your case, that would work a lot better; it would cool better, you would have better flow, and it would make your case less cluttered.
 
Dark Ember said:
What do you need 2 radiators for? Thats just going to add way too much restriction to that loop for the MCP600 to handle, cutting your waterflow down signifigantly. However, if you are really set on doing that, I would go with a stronger pump than the MCP600. If you want to stay 12V, take a look at Danger Den's 12V pump they sell (its a Laing D4). That thing packs a punch. If not, you might want to look at an Eheim 1250 or 1046 I believe it is. Or a Danner Mag 5. I just really think that 2 radiators would be too restrictive for that pump, with limited benefit. But, thats my opinion. Hope this was at least a little helpful. :eek:
Click to expand...

So if i go with the DangerDen pump would it solve the problem? what about if i split the tubing from the rads? like the pic below
P4SYSTEM-350X264.jpg
 
That picture shows poor component choice. Why buy two radiators, the same size, to be put right next to each other? Buy the double model and have better flow rates, thus better performance. In your case, is there any reason why you can't do this?
 
the MCP is a really weak pump and wont be able to handle that much restriction. if you had a mag 3 or a 1280 eheim i wouldnt see too much of a problem.
 
Plus with your current design you are blowing hot air from the top rad into the case. It will be blown out by the other rad's fan but you will experience high case temps and the second rad will have hot air blown through it making it very ineffective.
 
Aerobahn said:
So if i go with the DangerDen pump would it solve the problem? what about if i split the tubing from the rads? like the pic below
Click to expand...

If you are really intent on getting 2 radiators and a 12V pump, the Laing D4 from Danger Den should give you enough flow for what you are trying to assemble. You would be fine with that, or with a few of the 120V pumps that have been named by myself and kronchev.

Putting y-splitters and running the radiators in parallel could also help alleviate the problem. However, judgin by your diagram, I would say that it probably wouldn't. The distance between your 2 radiators is fairly large, so you would have to add a LOT of tubing to cover that distance, which would increase the head on your pump by even more. I really think that your best bet is just to get a dual 120 heatercore (Danger Den sells one if you don't feel like making one) and mount that on your case somewhere.
 
kronchev said:
the MCP is a really weak pump and wont be able to handle that much restriction. if you had a mag 3 or a 1280 eheim i wouldnt see too much of a problem.
Click to expand...
The MCP600 does 10.5 feet of head, hardly weak though the D4 does beat it. Eheim 1280? Maybe you mean 1250?

Good article about pumps.
 
Aerobahn said:
So if i go with the DangerDen pump would it solve the problem? what about if i split the tubing from the rads? like the pic below
P4SYSTEM-350X264.jpg
Click to expand...

that pic makes me cry

omg.jpg
 
HeThatKnows said:
The MCP600 does 10.5 feet of head, hardly weak though the D4 does beat it. Eheim 1280? Maybe you mean 1250?

Good article about pumps.
Click to expand...

ok yeh 1250

and i know that max head is a big thing but i hate how quickly the MCP drops off. maybe its just me, not really based in facts, but it just doesnt look like a good thing IMO.

/edit: MCP wins the article. im dumb nm
 
Yep, that article is what convinced me to go with the MCP600, I should be getting mine in the mail today or tomorrow.

edit: Just noticed that you wrote down both the Cyclone Fusion and the Maze4....Which one were you getting? From my research, the Fusion, the Swiftech MCW50, and the DD Maze4 were all about the same for the non-peltier models, and all about the same price.... but the Fusion is prettier ;) .

edit again: Doh, just thought of something, maybe you meant the Maze4 for the chipset.
 
server_error said:
Yep, that article is what convinced me to go with the MCP600, I should be getting mine in the mail today or tomorrow.

edit: Just noticed that you wrote down both the Cyclone Fusion and the Maze4....Which one were you getting? From my research, the Fusion, the Swiftech MCW50, and the DD Maze4 were all about the same for the non-peltier models, and all about the same price.... but the Fusion is prettier ;) .

edit again: Doh, just thought of something, maybe you meant the Maze4 for the chipset.
Click to expand...

So I came to a few updates I decided I need to keep everything under 400$.

Also looking a GPU blocks the Fusion has a micro channel design and supports 1/2 ID native and most importantly it looks the best.

As for chipsets, The nexsus (silverprop) supposedly is very flow restrictive, and so far most results I get charts/people the maze4 chipset is the way to go. The MCW30 would suit a 3/8 tubing system more than a 1/2ID.

As for pumps the Dangerden looks like the way to go.

Now the biggest problem of all the 2 BIX problem. I first got the Idea from this pic
AquaXtreme-Ultra-320.jpg


Because i have the exact same case :) with 120mm fan in the back and the top. By having two radiators I will lose flow. But supposedly I will lose a few degrees? I know that haveing a BIX2 would be better cooling/flow. But i cant fit it in my case and last time i tried cutting my case it was a horrible failure :(.

Will it be better if i drop the chipset WB will that help?

So if haveing the two radiators will make everything worse over all ( less flow and less temps) then I will just get one.
 
If I was in your situation I would cut a hole in the top of my case and use the BIX2, maybe mounted externally but still bolted down to your case. Pop two 120mm fans on that blowing up and out and you'd have great overall system temps. If you are worried about making a bad cut, get someone else to help. If you make a shroud that will cover up a lot of errors anyway. In my opinion, that's your best option. Comments?

Kronchev: I don't think it's fair to say that 3/8 ID will kill your flow. It may lessen your flow, but there are many many people out there using 3/8 ID that have great systems and get great temps.
 
Deadlierchair said:
Kronchev: I don't think it's fair to say that 3/8 ID will kill your flow. It may lessen your flow, but there are many many people out there using 3/8 ID that have great systems and get great temps.
Click to expand...

I agree. Although 3/8" isn't nearly as popular it doesn't mean that it won't work. Plenty of people get great overclocks and temps with 3/8".
 
OK so I'll drop the 2 rad system. Stick with 1/2ID.

But i still want to use a rad close to 120mm as possible.

should i get rid of the chipset cooler? will that get rid of stress off the one BIX? Or how about getting this instead of a bix? Pro-120 better?


Or can i stay with everything less a radiator

Should I mount my Radiator on the TOP or the back? I am going to use shroud but should i have one fan pulling with shroud or 1 on each side? A pic to help below.

cf1006_right2.jpg



Thanks so far for all the help ^^
 
Well, I have a case similar to yours, and I actually have a D-Tek Pro Core mounted to the back of my case, where your (our) 120mm fan is. Works quite well there for me. I think you should be able to keep all of your components, minus a radiator. You should be fine with that.

I would mount it wherever you think it is going to be the easiest to deal with, in terms of tubing, other drives, etc. Remember, the less tubing you have, the less restriction to flow you have as well, which would be a vote for the back, most likely. But, thats your call. I would probably say the back, not only for the shorter tubing length, but also cause it would be easier to see through a window! :)

Shrouds, etc... I would put one fan blowing onto the radiator through a shroud.

Oh, and I think that you SHOULD go with the Dtek pro-core. I believe the dimensions are bigger than the BIX, and is certainly cheaper! At any rate, it will be plenty to cool your system off, for less than what a BIX costs.
 
I think you guys are all retarted. You are making suggestions based on no data whatsoever... and simply making an enormous clusterfuck for someone else who knows what he is doing to deal with. Simply put: the MCP600 will be more than enough for that loop, and going with a lesser pump like the 1250, 1048 (LOL why was this even suggested?), and the mag 5 is simply rediculous. The mag 5 is overkill in most any watercooling situation. The D4 pump is powerful, but loud. The mag3 would be a better and cheaper choice, but realistically any pump will do just fine.

Also, the suggestion of the BIX should be in question.. Why pay $60 for a $20 heatercore? And why not go for something bigger like a dually heatercore for about $35? You want a performance advantage over 2x80mm or 2x120mm rads, but you end up with a BIX cooling everything? A larger radiator is beneficial in every system, and airflow through the radiator has more impact on cooling capacity than any pump will ever have.
 
OK So i ditched the BIX and going with a PRO heater core. MCP600 pump im going to stick with. I will post my pics + before and after results. Thanks for all the help guys, any last minute suggestions are welcome.
 
killernoodle said:
I think you guys are all retarted. You are making suggestions based on no data whatsoever... and simply making an enormous clusterfuck for someone else who knows what he is doing to deal with. Simply put: the MCP600 will be more than enough for that loop, and going with a lesser pump like the 1250, 1048 (LOL why was this even suggested?), and the mag 5 is simply rediculous. The mag 5 is overkill in most any watercooling situation. The D4 pump is powerful, but loud. The mag3 would be a better and cheaper choice, but realistically any pump will do just fine.
Click to expand...


Well, I don't think that we are. I think that having 2 radiators would KILL his flow with too much restriction. The MCP600 is just fine if he has 1 radiator, but with 2 radiators and 3 waterblocks, thats bad news. There is no way that pump is going to have enough power to get decent flow through that loop. Take a look at the PQ curve. The flow drops off dramatically after a few feet of head on that pump, and with his planned setup, he was going to have more than that, plus the restriction of 3 waterblocks and 2 radiators.

And maybe you didn't read close enough, but no one suggested a 1048. I said a 1046 (which I was mistaken about), meaning a 1060. Also, if you look at my last post, I did tell him to get a Dtek Pro Core rather than a BIX. Sorry to have offended you so much.


Aerobahn said:
OK So i ditched the BIX and going with a PRO heater core. MCP600 pump im going to stick with. I will post my pics + before and after results. Thanks for all the help guys, any last minute suggestions are welcome.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good plan to me. You should end up with a pretty nice system with that setup. Good luck! :)
 
Well, I don't think that we are. I think that having 2 radiators would KILL his flow with too much restriction. The MCP600 is just fine if he has 1 radiator, but with 2 radiators and 3 waterblocks, thats bad news.
Click to expand...

Sorry man I don't think you know what you are talking about here. There are only 2 pumps that you can get for everyday use (outside iwakis and very expensive pumps) that will outperform the MCP600 in a RESTRICTIVE setup. Flow means nothing if you dont have head to push the flow through the restricition. The two pumps are the Mag 3 which has the same head but higher flow, so obviously it will, and the D4, which is noisy as hell. The Mag 3 will perform slightly better (less than 1C) in a restrictive setup but nothing major. The D4 will outperform the MCP600 by a large margin above 12V but it also is loud and dumps almost all of its heat into the water. The only other pumps that do better are Iwaki's and other very expensive pumps. I can assure you that watercoolers have tried everything they can get their hands on. IMO Eheim is a waste of money. It's only redeeming quality is that it is well built. In all other areas a cheaper pump will do better.

Unless you really know what you are talking about you should really refrain from giving advice to people asking for help. I think there is more incorrect information in the computer world being passed around than correct information. The other day I had a guy tell me a BB salesman told him that the AXP3000+ ran at 3000MHz. Truly sad he was in the position to inform people and they actually listen.
 
sure is. you mean quiet? no its louder. it will generall provide about .5 more gpm in a restrictive setup than mcp600 iirc.
 
The mag 3 is also 120V, where the MCP600 is 12V. Something you'll need to consider if you want the pump turning on and off with your computer (you'd need some kind of relay set up to do that with a 120V pump).
 
Dark Ember said:
The mag 3 is also 120V, where the MCP600 is 12V. Something you'll need to consider if you want the pump turning on and off with your computer (you'd need some kind of relay set up to do that with a 120V pump).
Click to expand...
This also proably is why the MCP600 is better, look at the power consumption... the mag 3 is 35W compared to 9 for the MCP600.

Refer to this article about the importance of the power consumption of a pump.
 
sanjosebmx said:
I don't think those are bubbles. It appears to be some sort of anti kinking device, possibly a spring.
Click to expand...

Yep, those are just springs. At first look, they look like huge freakin' bubbles, but after a closer look, they're definitely springs.
 
vbbartlett said:
This also proably is why the MCP600 is better, look at the power consumption... the mag 3 is 35W compared to 9 for the MCP600.

Refer to this article about the importance of the power consumption of a pump.
Click to expand...

power consumption means nothing, power dissapation is the problem. i dont know if thats what you meant, but i doubt that the MCP600 puts out only 9 watts of heat at that head, otherwise everyone, i mean EVERYONE would use it
 
actually it is power consumption and it does mean something. These pumps are under at least some stress and an electrical motor under stress generates heat. We are all using water because water cool 11 times (if i remember the figure) better than air. Now the pump is generating heat. MOST of that heat is being absorbed by the water, not the air. thus you have all pumps putting heat into the water whether it is an inline or a submerged.
The article i mentioned above shows that the rate of flow is directly propotional to the amount of heat that can be transferred... HOWEVER that is for a system where the liquid is held at a constant. This is not the case since the pump is also adding heat to the water. There is a point at which having the "bigger pump" actually degridates the systems performance since water cools better when there is a larger difference between the heat being absorbed and the water's temp. So back to the power consumption, the more power it consumes the more energy is enter the system and yes MOST of that energy is transformed into movement, however the systems are a static size and thus the larger pumps are attempting to push more water through the same system. That relates back to restriction of the system. Thus a larger pump pushing more water through a static size system will create more heat that is transferred into the water.

I don't know where the intersection between the pumps heat, the flow rate and the size meet for the best performance but it is something to consider when selecting a pump!
 
I have the MCP600rev2 and have an external unit with 2 heatercores. I ran it overnight checked my inline temp 26.2-27C b4 goin to bed... woke up the other day and the temps are still the same I think thats a good thing since like you guys said it would dump heat onto water but it didn't. I ran the setup without the waterblocks(my WC is not yet installed to my comp) and the flow was pretty strong going to 2 heatercores to res(seein lot of splashy waves in the res). So yeh I guess what I'm trying to say is that the pump is gonna be ok for those components. I'm no expert but that's my opinion and I'm not advising or suggesting it.. just sharing what I saw blah blah blah:D:D
 
You may be right, but I would like to see what the temperature would get to without the hetercores. Im supposed to be getting a thermometer in the next day or so... and when I do Im going to run several inline test and submergable temps to see if eitehr actually heat up the water. It may be insignificant enough that there is no real effect on the overall temperature. I have never seen any hard facts, just thermodynamic equations and people "saying" both sides. Anyone else in a situation to test out the "disputed issue"?
 
well, here's a (very unscientific:D) "study"

i've run my dolphin dp650 pump (pretty nice except for the unshielded part) in a 5 gallon bucket of water, using 1/2" tubing, to a waterblock ~3 feet above the bucket through about 20ft of tubing (bought two 10ft portions, didn't feel like cutting when i was testing waterblocks) and the bucket didn't really get hot (the waterblock was just in midair) so either the bucket of water was absorbing and disappating(sp?) all the heat, or it wasn't making much.

that's just my input.

the three waterblocks/two radiators setup is a bit much to ask of any pump, especially in a case that small (compared to some others, that is)

with the heatercore, i'd put one 120mm on the outside of the case, sucking air out. then on the inside, put a shroud (if you can) between the heatercore and the case, and then shroud the other side and put another 120mm (the same specs as the external one) on the shroud pushing air out.


this took me way too long to type because i'm tired and kept trying to type 'shround' instead of 'shroud'.:eek: and while typing this i tried to type 'insteand'. methinks its time for bed (or time to stop touch-typing for now) so excuse any spelling/grammar/typing errors i may have made.;)
 
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