vSphere 4.1 HCL + SuperMicro

[Mindflux]

I'm generally a whitebox server sort of guy. I'm in a bit of a quandary I was wondering if anyone could help me decipher.


I was putting together a box via Silicon Mechanics, they list it under their "Virtualization Servers", so naturally I assumed it was on the HCL.

Turns out the board in their RackForm R346 v2.1 is the X8DTE-F which I cannot find on the HCL. All 3 Supermicro "Superservers" on the HCL from SuperMicro with the same 720W chassis as the R346 have different boards.

How important is it to stick to the HCL? I've read stories about VMWare not being as forthcoming with support (if needed) if you don't use all HCL "approved" hardware.

That said, another Supermicro VAR -- Aberdeen Inc.

Their "Sterling 269" is on the HCL, which they are straightforward in saying is simply a Supermicro 6026T-NTR+ Superserver (also on the HCL). So it's apparent that some vendors use pre-certified gear and also get their own "branding" on the HCL list.

So, what the heck? I'm going to be on the phone with Silicon Mechanics first thing Monday morning to sort this stuff out with the server they are quoting me. Going back and looking at the list they don't explicitly state it's "VMWare certified" but they do say it's one of their most common configs for their clients needing virtualization.

Any guidance that can be given would be a huge help.

 

[lopoetve]

Are you building this for a production system?

If so, buy something on the HCL.

If not, then do whatever. Support will give "best effort" support, but cases cannot be escalated and nothing can be taken to VMware engineering that doesn't have HCL certification.

If you're building production servers, that you're going to have support on, I honestly cannot recommend whiteboxing it. Really.

 

[Mindflux]

Are you building this for a production system?

If so, buy something on the HCL.

If not, then do whatever. Support will give "best effort" support, but cases cannot be escalated and nothing can be taken to VMware engineering that doesn't have HCL certification.

If you're building production servers, that you're going to have support on, I honestly cannot recommend whiteboxing it. Really.

Yeah it would be production, eventually.

That's more or less what I thought re: HCL. But what's wrong with whiteboxing if the components are on the HCL? I find the hardware more flexible than say, Dell. Not to mention weird vendor lock-ins on RAID cards and hard disks that sometimes are imposed on "big box" brands.

 

[NetJunkie]

Yeah...but you don't really want that kind of flexible on a vSphere host.

 

[Mindflux]

Yeah...but you don't really want that kind of flexible on a vSphere host.

Can you elaborate? I mean if everything is HCL qualified what's the issue? Hardware on the server isn't going to be tossed out every 2 years in favor of a new board+chip due to having to chase down HCL approved components.

I live 3 miles from Dell WHQ, and work 1.5 miles from WHQ and I've never been fond of their gear. Sadly HP ProLiant and other notable server brands are out of our budget range. So I'm left with whiteboxing it or sucking it up and buying Dell (which won't discount me beyond web pricing)

 

[lopoetve]

Yeah it would be production, eventually.

That's more or less what I thought re: HCL. But what's wrong with whiteboxing if the components are on the HCL? I find the hardware more flexible than say, Dell. Not to mention weird vendor lock-ins on RAID cards and hard disks that sometimes are imposed on "big box" brands.

Just because individual components are tested, does not mean the whole is, unless Dell/HP/whoever wants to put them together, slap a cute name on it, and test it on its own.

This means that should an issue be identified with a hardware component due to interplay with another included hardware component, you then have said big vendor behind it scrambling to fix said problem to keep the server on the HCL, vs a raid card vendor or NIC vendor that doesn't care. One gets fixed in a couple of months. The other often results in the device being removed from the HCL. Or being broken for a year.

Your choice, of course, but I would not put a system in production that I built myself. They also have contracts with intel/amd/etc for decoding error strings / return codes that you would not have on your own.

 

[NetJunkie]

What he said. Just because the recipe is on the HCL doesn't mean the ingredients are.

Go talk to a server vendor and have them quote you less than web for HP and Dell.

 

[Thuleman]

Can you elaborate? I mean if everything is HCL qualified what's the issue?

I am just a regular user, I don't work for or sell Dell, HP, etc., and while I am all for saving money running production on a whitebox isn't something I would recommend, and I have been running production on Supermicro for the first couple of years (mid 2000).

What you are paying Dell for is to own the problem and absolve you of it. Paying Dell is like buying car insurance, you may never need it but you'll be glad when you have it.

If you have an uphill battle requesting the funds then I would lay out the cost of a support scenario where no one wants to help you, not VMware, not the individual component vendors, nor anyone in the community because no one has a setup like the one you have. How much will such an issue cost, including your time, buying new stuff then, lost or diminished productivity of the people who use the servers, lost customers, damage to reputation, etc. etc.

Once you add all that up Dell starts to look pretty inexpensive.

 

[NetJunkie]

You said it far better than I did. Exactly. If you hit a problem YOU own it. And yes...we hit firmware bugs...driver bugs...even vSphere bugs...it happens. But if you're using gear on the HCL it's not YOUR problem to narrow that down.

 

[Mindflux]

Just because individual components are tested, does not mean the whole is, unless Dell/HP/whoever wants to put them together, slap a cute name on it, and test it on its own.

This means that should an issue be identified with a hardware component due to interplay with another included hardware component, you then have said big vendor behind it scrambling to fix said problem to keep the server on the HCL, vs a raid card vendor or NIC vendor that doesn't care. One gets fixed in a couple of months. The other often results in the device being removed from the HCL. Or being broken for a year.

Your choice, of course, but I would not put a system in production that I built myself. They also have contracts with intel/amd/etc for decoding error strings / return codes that you would not have on your own.

Ok you have me there about decoding error strings, but I guarantee you that your first call to HP or Dell or whomever isn't gonna get you anyone who even knows what you're talking about. I've endured Dell's "Support" before.. and I'd rather not have to endure it again.

 

[Mindflux]

You said it far better than I did. Exactly. If you hit a problem YOU own it. And yes...we hit firmware bugs...driver bugs...even vSphere bugs...it happens. But if you're using gear on the HCL it's not YOUR problem to narrow that down.

But it is _YOUR_ problem, regardless of the vendor because Dell's going to pass the buck to VMWare, and VMWare is going to pass the buck to Dell (or LSI if it's a PERC card).. and so on.

I've played this game many times before.

 

[Mindflux]

Go talk to a server vendor and have them quote you less than web for HP and Dell.

I got one vendor to knock down the Dell I was trying to buy down another $700ish. It's still a full grand over the whitebox solution for nearly identical hardware and support (3yr/NBD parts).

I always hear the folks that say their rep at Dell beats any whitebox pricing.. but I've yet to find a rep at Dell or outside of Dell that can do that. Maybe it's my "small quantity" purchases. (1 or 2 servers at a time).

 

[lopoetve]

But it is _YOUR_ problem, regardless of the vendor because Dell's going to pass the buck to VMWare, and VMWare is going to pass the buck to Dell (or LSI if it's a PERC card).. and so on.

I've played this game many times before.

Um, no. I can safely say that either of those companies can get it escalated in the other company as needed. You might occasionally have to push for it, but second line/third line support can absolutely get the right people at either company engaged.

If you only have scattered hardware vendors though, getting them to work together is worse than herding cats.

The key word is escalate. If you don't get what you're looking for, request it. You'll get to someone that knows what's going on.

 

[lopoetve]

Ok you have me there about decoding error strings, but I guarantee you that your first call to HP or Dell or whomever isn't gonna get you anyone who even knows what you're talking about. I've endured Dell's "Support" before.. and I'd rather not have to endure it again.

Oh I know - I've had the same battles. see my prior as to what to do You'll get somewhere then.

 

[Thuleman]

I always hear the folks that say their rep at Dell beats any whitebox pricing.. but I've yet to find a rep at Dell or outside of Dell that can do that. Maybe it's my "small quantity" purchases. (1 or 2 servers at a time).

It's a combination of things that are inherent to channel sales as well as sales in general.

As a sweeping generalization it's fair to say that the cost of hardware is 40%, the other 60% are added by the channel. Direct sales obviously will not sell it to you for 40% of the list price since they do protect the channel, but it gives you an idea of what kind of discounts are in theory possible.

When to buy?
Buy at the end of the reporting quarter or reporting year. Both vendors and VARs will offer some decent prices to meet or exceed sales goals. There's this anecdote that the sales rep will sell you gear at a loss for the company just so he can meet the sales figure he needs to get that fat bonus check.

What to buy?
Here you are in a lot better shape if you buy from a VAR since they know which line the vendor is pushing. This can go either way, you might be able to get decent pricing on stuff that's not that hot anymore, or they want to push the new line and are offering incentives for you to buy it.

Whom to buy from?
Well this is where it gets a bit tricky. Because my VAR sucks (I am the 2-3 servers at a time guy and they let me know that they don't give a shit about my business) I don't have the highest opinion of VARs. However, under ideal circumstances a good VAR is the best place to buy because once you develop a good relationship you can score some good deals.

Having said that, if you are buying direct, then it pays to call back a few times to talk to different people and see what they can do about pricing (if you don't have a rep). I bought a 52" Samsung LCD through Dell when they first came out. List was like 2.5k and shipping to my location in the boonies would have been another $500. I ended up getting it for 1.7k and free shipping, the dudes who delivered it couldn't believe the free shipping part. Air Freight from the Philippines to Anchorage Alaska, then by contract courier to my house some 360 miles away, no charge. Bottom line? It depends on whom you talk to and how you talk to them.

 

[NetJunkie]

SOME truth to that. Best discounts are at the end of a quarter and end of the year. Just need to know when those are..most are by calendar year but Cisco is NOT. You're also not going to get some super amazing deal, even end of year. No one I ever work with will do something at a loss. A rep may be comp'd on revenue but somewhere right above them is a District Manager that is comp'd on margin and they are not going to okay a deal that loses money.

If you're small enough that your rep is an "inside rep" you won't get as big of a discount as someone working with a field rep. That's mainly due to deal and volume size. If you were big enough to earn a better discount you'd be dealing with a field rep.

There are good VARs and bad ones. I've worked with both. The reason I work for who I do is because we're an awesome VAR. I have no interest in working with any other partner. So it just depends who you deal with plus their relationship with the manufacturers.

Most things these days are set discount levels, depending on the deal. A big deal can go beyond standard levels...but it needs to be a decent sized deal. 4 or 5 servers isn't it...a single SAN (in most cases) isn't it. Licensing can be more flexible since there is no "manufacturing" or "component" cost involved...but again, it all depends what the core business of the manufacturer is. VMware will do less as that IS there product. EMC will be more flexible since they really want to sell gear.

 

[Mindflux]

Having said that, if you are buying direct, then it pays to call back a few times to talk to different people and see what they can do about pricing (if you don't have a rep). I bought a 52" Samsung LCD through Dell when they first came out. List was like 2.5k and shipping to my location in the boonies would have been another $500. I ended up getting it for 1.7k and free shipping, the dudes who delivered it couldn't believe the free shipping part. Air Freight from the Philippines to Anchorage Alaska, then by contract courier to my house some 360 miles away, no charge. Bottom line? It depends on whom you talk to and how you talk to them.

I live and work really REALLY close to Dell WHQ. I have friends who are in sales and I've tried to get them to get Dell to pry their death grip off pricing for us. So far they managed to knock an additional $250 off web pricing, which I'm already beating out going through a channel partner.

I pretty much swore off Dell last time I bought servers (fall of 08) because they wouldn't deal with me on a reasonable level pricing wise, even being 2 miles down the road. With all the tax breaks the city of Round Rock is giving them, they should be feeling more than charitable about helping out other Round Rock based businesses.

 

[NetJunkie]

Dell has no interest in working with you..nor should they. They are TRYING to get their partner/channel program going. Which is what they should be doing. It doesn't make sense for the manufacturer to deal with someone looking to buy a couple servers...that's what partners are for.

 

[Mindflux]

Dell has no interest in working with you..nor should they. They are TRYING to get their partner/channel program going. Which is what they should be doing. It doesn't make sense for the manufacturer to deal with someone looking to buy a couple servers...that's what partners are for.

The partners are getting me better deals (by 20% ish).. problem is it's just not enough. I even considered buying the RAM and hard drives outside of Dell since there's some massive markup on those and the pricing still just doesn't fall in where I need it to be. (We're still talking $1k pricing difference between a comparable whitebox and a Dell R710 at the channel partners price)