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Voltage drop with w/c....

Wow, it's stuff like that that I'd like to be fairly educated in.....as for all i know you could be making all that up....but it still SOUNDS damn impressive. ;)
 
It would sound better if I could write worth a damn. I know what I want to say, but I don't think I ever get the idea across as well as I could. Eh.
 
HeThatKnows said:
It would sound better if I could write worth a damn. I know what I want to say, but I don't think I ever get the idea across as well as I could. Eh.
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Haha, see.....that's where I come in.....vocab and grammer are my things....sad as that might sound, for how many times I've spelled the wrong around here. :p
 
HeThatKnows said:
You're not in school, so extra credit doesn't apply. But I could give you a cookie! :p

The two big things affected by temperature are: resistance of the interconnects (with related transmission line effects), and transistor switching speed.

Without getting into all the nasty details, the transistors in your CPU work by allowing or excluding charge carriers (electrons and 'holes') from a semiconductor channel that separates the 'source' and the 'drain'. You do this by adding/removing electrical charge from the 'gate' electrode, which sets up an electrical field that repels the charge carriers (so that electricity can't flow, nothing to carry it) or allows them to pass.

Now, we like to think of electricy as moving really fast, and the electrical fields do. But the charge carriers themselves move rather slow. In fact their movement due to the electrical field (their 'drift velocity') is much slower than their random movement from thermal energy. So when we want to shut off a transistor, the charge carriers are pushed out of the source to drain channel at the drift velocity, but are also zipping in-and-out due to thermal energy. The less thermal movement, the faster the channel can be sufficiently cleared and the faster a valid output is available.

Of course, before the transistor does anything, we need to get the gate charged (or discharged, either way).The higher the resistance of the interconnect wires, the long it takes for a useful amount of charge to come or go. Lower the resistance (by cooling) or raise the voltage, and the gate charges quicker.
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Here we go, that's more like what I wanted to hear :D It wasn't long ago that I was in school though, HeThatKnows, a mere 8 months or so... I only took one course that covered electrical devices and materials properties, and it mainly covered properties- not how devices work in a system. So these terms aren't unfamiliar to me, I just needed to know how they go together and work in a system of electronic devices (microprocessor). What I was trying to get at was that I think the resistance of conductor materials is not the main reason for failure, it is more related to how transistors are able to function at higher frequencies and with varying amounts of thermal energy.

Plywood99 - your name suddenly makes sense :D I wasn't trying to get on your ass about this stuff, I understand that people specialize in certain things. Just as you said, I can talk your ear off about metallurgy or ceramics processing but carpentry isn't something I claim to know much about. Rather than arguing about this, I wanted to have a valid discussion where people might learn things (myself included).
 
plywood99 said:
James, I've seen many of your posts in this forum and you seem to be pretty edumacated. :D Could you PLEASE enlighten us to the true reason why colder temps can help increase cpu speed? :confused:
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well i just had this big paragraph witten to answer you but during the writeup i checked to see if i'd answer anotehr question in the thread only to see that HeThatKnows beat me to it already... !!!

but for those of you who didnt get what HeThatKnows said, i have a pretty lamens description Early In This Thread!

the only thing though that i was going to mention in my paragraph that HeThatKnows didnt talk about was the different architectures...

before everything was simple with LSI and Motorola, because the registers were so simple and the instruction sets were so tiny that the accumulators and the alu were pretty intimate, and so reducing the travel distance (temperature) between them and also getting a beter/purer cristal was all one needed to do to overclock
*by the way, for those who never did this, the crystal was a physical thing you could pop-out and put back in.. i think that stopped around 9mhz computers (correct me if i'm wrong someone)
on newer chips, intel or amd, exluding 64 bit, the architectures have x86 in common, which partialy dictates physical properties, not explicitly but you'd have to be pretty imaginative to come up with different ways to arrange some of the instruction sets physicaly...
*amd and intel add their own instructions and optimizations (such as 3dnow and mmx and sse and so on) on top of x86...
anyways, as was previously mentioned, due to the complications involved in the new chipset designs and the inability to just change your cristal, cooling is no longer as much a factor as it used to be..
also some of the paths in the newer architectures are aproaching a couple molecules wide.. and that';s when electrons jump paths
*i am in awe at the engineers who made the 90nm chip.. that is a pandoras box!

thanks HeThatKnows for making my paragraph that much shorter ;)
 
zer0signal667 said:
Plywood99 - your name suddenly makes sense :D I wasn't trying to get on your ass about this stuff, I understand that people specialize in certain things. Just as you said, I can talk your ear off about metallurgy or ceramics processing but carpentry isn't something I claim to know much about. Rather than arguing about this, I wanted to have a valid discussion where people might learn things (myself included).
Click to expand...

Heh Heh, sometimes I get nervous when I'm nervous. Thanks for the warm welcome. :p

Anyway we never did find out if the statement about 10C temp drops equals 2% - 3% increase in processor speed. Although it does seem to hold true up to a certain point.
 
james.m.flood said:
also some of the paths in the newer architectures are aproaching a couple molecules wide.. and that';s when electrons jump paths
*i am in awe at the engineers who made the 90nm chip.. that is a pandoras box!

thanks HeThatKnows for making my paragraph that much shorter ;)
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:eek: What kind of paths are you referring to, conductors, semiconductors..? That's pretty thin for a conductor, but I can imagine junctions or interfaces being that small.
Just wait for carbon nanotubes to be used in microprocessors, that size scale will really put you in awe :D
 
plywood99 said:
Anyway we never did find out if the statement about 10C temp drops equals 2% - 3% increase in processor speed. Although it does seem to hold true up to a certain point.
Click to expand...


I don't think there's any way of making a broad statement like that... although it maybe be a half-decent rule of thumb to follow within a certain range of temps, I wouldn't make any promises or bets on it.
 
zer0signal667 said:
I don't think there's any way of making a broad statement like that... although it maybe be a half-decent rule of thumb to follow within a certain range of temps, I wouldn't make any promises or bets on it.
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Neither would I, but it seems to hold up often enough up to a certain point that it's still something one could keep in the back of his or her mind when they're thinking of cooling upgrades and whatnot.

LOL, thinking faster than you can type me thinks.
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Haha, yeah....I think so, which is weird.....cus I type at like 80WPM on here all the time. :p
 
james.m.flood said:
*by the way, for those who never did this, the crystal was a physical thing you could pop-out and put back in.. i think that stopped around 9mhz computers (correct me if i'm wrong someone)
Click to expand...
Hey James, Back in my Amiga days, I replaced the stock crystal which ran at 14mhz with one that ran at 28 mhz. This was on my Amiga 1200. I seem to recall crystals up to 50 mhz for my accelerator card, 50mhz 68030. I would pop the old one out of a 4 prong socket and insert the new one.
 
you GOTTA love those motorola 68 series eh?
they're sweet man..
i've had so much fun with them.. but 50mhz is intense.. i was having fun (last semester) trying to program interupts with-out having SEI and CLI commands everywhere on a TWO MHZ! i guess you couldnt do that on 50...

for anyone out there who likes programing and wants to learn assembly language... motorola's 68hc11 board kicks ass...
especialy the wytecs...
they're simple and when you're done with them you can use them for home-automation ;)
 
I've got to learn to think and write and type faster. Ten more posts while I'm thinking of a detailed reply? :(
 
plywood99 said:
Hey James, Back in my Amiga days, I replaced the stock crystal which ran at 14mhz with one that ran at 28 mhz. This was on my Amiga 1200. I seem to recall crystals up to 50 mhz for my accelerator card, 50mhz 68030. I would pop the old one out of a 4 prong socket and insert the new one.
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Ah the good ol' days eh? :p
 
cornelious0_0 said:
Ah the good ol' days eh? :p
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Yeh, The Amiga was the GREATEST COMPUTER EVER. It's a true bummer they went down the tubes. I used mine up till 1998 when a lightning storm knocked out the C.I.A. chip that controlled my printer port. Man, that was a fun computer.
 
plywood99 said:
Yeh, The Amiga was the GREATEST COMPUTER EVER. It's a true bummer they went down the tubes. I used mine up till 1998 when a lightning storm knocked out the C.I.A. chip that controlled my printer port. Man, that was a fun computer.
Click to expand...

See, now why can't we go back to things working like THAT? :p
 
james.m.flood said:
you GOTTA love those motorola 68 series eh?
they're sweet man..
i've had so much fun with them.. but 50mhz is intense.. i was having fun (last semester) trying to program interupts with-out having SEI and CLI commands everywhere on a TWO MHZ! i guess you couldnt do that on 50...

for anyone out there who likes programing and wants to learn assembly language... motorola's 68hc11 board kicks ass...
especialy the wytecs...
they're simple and when you're done with them you can use them for home-automation ;)
Click to expand...
I used to program in assembly language on my Commodore 64. Man I'm getting old, that was twnety years ago...... :(
 
plywood99 said:
I used to program in assembly language on my Commodore 64. Man I'm getting old, that was twnety years ago...... :(
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Which is older then I even am....man, that make me feel young. :p
 
cornelious0_0 said:
See, now why can't we go back to things working like THAT? :p
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When my Amiga died I was gonna go over to Apple, but they just cost too friggin much for what you got... At least pc parts are a dime a dozen.
 
Cornelious said," Which is older then I even am....man, that make me feel young."


I'm 34.. But still strong like bull.
 
plywood99 said:
WOOHOO!!!! My first [H]ard thread! :D :cool:
Click to expand...

Happy to be a part of yet another.....dunno how many that is now, gonna see if I can hit 9k posts in the next month or so......so I'm sure we'll meet up again. ;)
 
cornelious0_0 said:
Happy to be a part of yet another.....dunno how many that is now, gonna see if I can hit 9k posts in the next month or so......so I'm sure we'll meet up again. ;)
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If all your posts were as valuable as this one, I'd say that would be 9000 well-earned points ;)
 
zer0signal667 said:
If all your posts were as valuable as this one, I'd say that would be 9000 well-earned points ;)
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Oh come now, you can't actually expect me to sit at my computer for 4-6 hours everyday.....almost entirely at [H] while listening to music and chatting....and have every post be deep, meaningfull, and actually thought out. :rolleyes: ;)
 
How are we to learn if you don't tell us Corn? :D
This thread is like Electron 101
Thanks for a good read I just wish I had something to offer :rolleyes:
 
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