Vista UAC Broken?

Well now I realized something else - I turned off UAC, deciding to forget about this whole hassle just to enable an annoying feature anyway, and I restarted, and all my desktop icons retain their UAC security shield things. Not only that, but system wide, every icon retains it. (I know the control panel ones, etc. always have it, I'm talking about the ones like in Explorer).

So now I know something is definitely up with UAC. Also, now that it's off, it acts exactly the same way as when it was on. Desktop icons, no prompts, etc.
 
senorcarne said:
Well now I realized something else - I turned off UAC, deciding to forget about this whole hassle just to enable an annoying feature anyway, and I restarted, and all my desktop icons retain their UAC security shield things. Not only that, but system wide, every icon retains it. (I know the control panel ones, etc. always have it, I'm talking about the ones like in Explorer).

So now I know something is definitely up with UAC. Also, now that it's off, it acts exactly the same way as when it was on. Desktop icons, no prompts, etc.
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Did you verify the registry settings I posted earlier in the thread?
 
Yes! Thank You!
It works now.
Although I hope the annoying icon thing goes away if I ever decide to disable it...
 
TechieSooner said:
Same thing I wondered.

You *could* try sfc /scannow but it probably won't reverse customization settings like that.


And everyone here could call BS on this. Simply doesn't happen. I use PortableApps myself, just tried this on a file inside C:\Windows, got a prompt right away.
As a matter of fact, I got one prompt when I stuck the drive in asking me to run the EXE or not, and a second one asking if I wanted to let it have access to C:\Windows when I ran it.

If you want help (although I *may* be accurate in assuming you just want to complain about it), please do like the poster above did... tell us what exactly you've done to UAC and your permissions.
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Did I say from within the c:\Windows\ folder? Nope, never said that. I said on any HDD that has Vista on it with UAC running. I never changed UAC on my PC at any time. The version of portable Eraser I have I can wipe files without having to give it admin privileges. I even checked the exe and it has not been given admin privileges by default either. I'm not the one asking for help. I posted to back up the OP's claim that UAC is not consistent in how it functions. If it was I would need admin privileges to run both MP3Tag and Eraser and not just MP3Tag but not Eraser. Eraser has the potential to do far more damage than MP3Tag can.
 
gtg465x said:
Can you take a joke?

By the way, your argument about Portable Eraser makes no sense. What would you suggest UAC do in this situation? As long as someone doesn't leave their computer logged in and unattended in a public place, then this tactic presents no security threat. And if someone does do that, theft is a much greater risk than this.
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That's not my point. My point is that I need admin privileges to edit files with MP3tag but with portable Eraser I can wipe files without having admin privileges. That is not consistent security. Do you get where I am coming from now or should I just give up and move along? This thread is going nowhere anyway so I will just move along. Have a nice day.
 
JustLong said:
Well then how much of an idiot are you? ;)

No one here said UAC was perfect.

Also by default you ARE and admin in Vista. Are you able to get this program to run when you are logged on as a member of just the "users" group?
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On Vista the default account is admin with limitations so it is not really admin even though they call it admin. This is common knowledge so why do you seem to think it is a full admin account? It isn't. One should not be able to run a prog like Eraser without specifically giving admin privileges to wipe files. If it was meant to act that way then explain to me why MP3Tag needs admin privileges just to change the tags in mp3 files.
 
So, I'm gonna go ahead and call shens on you.

I just tested it myself, and sure enough it doesn't prompt UAC, it goes ahead and runs the Gutmann Algorithm.

Upon inspecting the file afterwards, the eraser did nothing to the test file which was still intact and had not changed, nor had its meta data changed. Eraser just failed quietly while giving the impression that the 35 passes were successful.

File was in C:\Windows run from an Administrator account with UAC enabled as "Prompt for Elevation" (default setting)

The only way a file action in C:\Windows\ from eraser would not prompt UAC are the following scenarios.

-Eraser inherited elevation via a process that spawned it.

-Eraser was run from the local "Administrator" account or domain "Administrator" account with 'User Account Control: Admin Approval Mode for the Built-in Administrator account' policy set to disabled (which is the default)

-The current user has adequate permissions via full control or "modify + delete" to access the target file

-User is part of the Administrator group and the 'User Account Control: Behavior of the elevation prompt for administrators in Admin Approval Mode' policy is set to "Elevate without Prompting"

-User is part of the Users group on the machine and the 'User Account Control: Behavior of the elevation prompt for standard users' policy is set to "Elevate without Prompting"

-UAC is disabled


If you would like help in fixing your issue milkweg, I or other would be pleased to help you with it, it seems if what you said is true your UAC is not functioning properly.
 
milkweg said:
On Vista the default account is admin with limitations so it is not really admin even though they call it admin. This is common knowledge so why do you seem to think it is a full admin account? It isn't. One should not be able to run a prog like Eraser without specifically giving admin privileges to wipe files. If it was meant to act that way then explain to me why MP3Tag needs admin privileges just to change the tags in mp3 files.
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It is a full admin account. If it wasn't you would need to enter credentials of an admin account when you tried to do an action that required elevation.
 
milkweg said:
Nope, I am not that much of an idiot. Vista allows portable Eraser to delete files at will with no prompt and yet when I press the delete key it has to ask me twice to delete a file that I am sure I want to delete. This is a program that is just an exe file and doesn't even need to be installed to be usable. If UAC is so great shouldn't it be making progs like this require admin privileges to be able to wipe files or the HDD? If I use MP3Tag to re-write tags in the mp3 files I need admin privilege and yet it allows Eraser to delete files with no prompt at all. Odd. And yet you guys still insist UAC is perfect. You are dumbasses.
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Didn't work for me. Something might be odd with your setup, or perhaps program files have different access privileges. I've never been prompted by UAC when working with non-system files (like MP3s) so straight off there's something different about our setups.



I know you weren't talking about this, but being able to access unencrypted files or delete them from a bootable CD is entirely a different matter. No operating system on earth can prevent that, OS security is only relevant when an OS is running, if the computer is turned off then started with something else you're addressing hardware security, and it has nothing to do with Vista.

There are a whole boatload of other problems with Vista, no doubt about that. That's why I use Linux on my Lappy ;)
 
JustLong said:
It is a full admin account. If it wasn't you would need to enter credentials of an admin account when you tried to do an action that required elevation.
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If it was a full admin account you wouldn't need to give elevated privileges to do certain tasks. It's similar to the default account in Ubuntu and my guuess that is where Microsoft got the idea from. Is the default account in Ubuntu called an admin account? No. And entering credentials or not is an option you can set. You are still required to give elevated permission to do certain tasks but not required to give credentials because Microsoft knew that would piss off people big time because Vista prompts far more than Ubuntu does. Like I said, I get prompted twice to just delete a friggin' file. But if you want to be bothered with giving credentials too you can set it to do that. I don't think you will enjoy the experience though.
 
Hvatum said:
Didn't work for me. Something might be odd with your setup, or perhaps program files have different access privileges. I've never been prompted by UAC when working with non-system files (like MP3s) so straight off there's something different about our setups.
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OK, I told a little white lie. I can't wipe files in the program folder either. That is a protected folder. But UAC should still be asking for admin privileges for Eraser to wipe files in any folder just as it asks me to if I want to manually delete files. You say you can edit MP3tags fine and yet I require to elevate to admin privileges to do it. Well, it is the same on a friends Vista PC too so it's not just me. I've never changed UAC behavior or default permissions. Although, sometimes I get a hankering to disable UAC completely because it can be annoying at times. But this is my internet usage PC so I guess I shouldn't lower it's security.
 
milkweg said:
OK, I told a little white lie. I can't wipe files in the program folder either. That is a protected folder.
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Yet you argued tooth and nail against it? :rolleyes:


milkweg said:
But UAC should still be asking for admin privileges for Eraser to wipe files in any folder just as it asks me to if I want to manually delete files.
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Eraser runs as milkweg. Your user files are under directories created by milkweg. Therefore, permissions match = no prompt.

milkweg said:
You say you can edit MP3tags fine and yet I require to elevate to admin privileges to do it.
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Methinks you are mistaking UAC with the simple prompt you get when running something from flash drive. Not the same thing.
 
Well, I forgot that the Programs folder in Vista is a folder with special protections (unlike in XP) and I didn't deliberately lie. have to set MP3Tag to run as admin to be able to edit the files so it is not a simple UAC prompt. I can't even edit mp3 files by right clicking on them and selecting properties like I can in XP. MP3 files are in folders created by me too. Anyway, my main point is still valid because Vista should not allow a prog like Eraser to be able to wipe files without admin level access and yet it enforces admin level acces for MP3Tag to edit tags in mp3's. It's no big deal, just something I wanted to discuss.
 
UAC sucks, I'll give you that. However, it also saves not-so-technical users from many problems. From a support standpoint, I wish XP had it a long time ago.

There are far too many programs that think they must change system files in order to work. the programmers behind those should be shot in the kneecaps for their arrogance. Those are the programs that cause most of the problems with any system.

(I once had an internal programmer that contacted us to ask us to copy a specially modified mfc42.dll to our entire site just so his little app for showing paycheck stubs on the intranet page. We were a Windows NT4 site at the time. that version of mfc42.dll, when I tested it out, caused both IE5 and Acrobat reader to quit working. He hadn't even tested the stinking modified library with any system but his own.)

UAC and system file protection are putting a stop to this kind of thing. I'm very happy with that idea. It's not perfect, and quite annoying at times, but it is better than free reign over the system and program files.
 
milkweg said:
Well, I forgot that the Programs folder in Vista is a folder with special protections (unlike in XP) and I didn't deliberately lie.
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You are expert enough to form your opinions on UAC, yet have no idea how it actually works and what it protects? :rolleyes:

milkweg said:
have to set MP3Tag to run as admin to be able to edit the files so it is not a simple UAC prompt. I can't even edit mp3 files by right clicking on them and selecting properties like I can in XP. MP3 files are in folders created by me too.
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Seriously though, do you even know what you are talking about? Or just make it up?
You argued the hell out of the point that it doesn't protect the system folders, yet when you actually tried it, "my bad!".
When you do a print screen you cannot see the I beam cursor, but you can clearly see my editing a file (The Artist) directly right here:
2328284178_aa2f857343.jpg


dgingeri said:
There are far too many programs that think they must change system files in order to work. the programmers behind those should be shot in the kneecaps for their arrogance. Those are the programs that cause most of the problems with any system.
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This hits the nail on the head.
If these programmers would have followed Microsoft recommended practices, no problems whatsoever moving to Vista (the ones that did had very few problems).

pigster said:
Nice, an entire thread based on your shit stirring. :rolleyes:
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Sad thing is that some poor soul actually looking for information on UAC/Vista would come upon here, see this crap, and take it as fact if nobody said anything :rolleyes:
 
dgingeri said:
There are far too many programs that think they must change system files in order to work. the programmers behind those should be shot in the kneecaps for their arrogance. Those are the programs that cause most of the problems with any system.
Click to expand...

Tell me about it. I've been bitten by game developers that thought it was a good idea to replace system files with an updated version their game needed. Last year I decided to install Caesar3 again on XP. It overwrote a system .dll and after that Firefox would no longer work. I had to go on the internet and find a site with a copy of the original file and overwrite the version Impressions installed. The thing is they don't have to do it that way as they can program the games to use their own .dll files from within the game folder. I asked a game developer once why they thought it a good idea to overwrite system files instead of just putting the file in their own game folder and he said it was because it saves space. Really, how ridiculous is that excuse? I'n the past I have actually petitoned Microsoft to put a stop to allowing 3rd party companies to be able to do that and now they have, which is good. But I still use XP for gaming and not Vista so I am still at peril from 3rd party software companies. I will make a complere switch to Vista eventually though.
 
pigster said:
Nice, an entire thread based on your shit stirring. :rolleyes:
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Look, if it makes you people feel like big men by denigrating me then have at it. I couldn't care less. I said, I simply forgot at the moment and didn't say I didn't know. I never install anything to the programs folder for that reason so obviously knew at one time. I have three computers with three different OS's installed so my computer time does not revolve around Vista only. I only use Vista for the internet and as my mp3 jukebox. I just checked an mp3 file and could not edit the tags but looking further I realize why. I have a 360 and set it up to use MCE with my mp3 library. It added WMP Network svc as an owner and its permissions are set to read only. I clicked on remove properties and now I can edit the files. Just because something works for you in one way don't assume that means everyone's system is the same. Obviously you don't have a 360 and are using MCE in Vista over a network to a 360. When I installed the software and set it up there was nothing telling me that it was going to add another owner to my mp3 files and set permissions to read only.
 
TechieSooner said:
Sad thing is that some poor soul actually looking for information on UAC/Vista would come upon here, see this crap, and take it as fact if nobody said anything :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yea, well, people make mistakes all the time. Get used to it. Or would you prefer to put me in front of a firing squad for it? This is just a discussion forum and not 'The Centre For Scientific Computer Studies'.
 
milkweg said:
Look, if it makes you people feel like big men by denigrating me then have at it.
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milkweg said:
Nice to see people blaming the innocent user instead of Microsoft's flawed UAC. Typical fanbois. If I want I can wipe any Vista HDD from a thumbdrive using portable Eraser and UAC will never kick in. Yea, real great that UAC and how it protects the user from unauthorized activity. <smirk>
Click to expand...

Pot, kettle, etc

Look, if you post nonsense like that, people WILL bust your balls. Next time don't take it so personally and consider what people are saying instead.

/thread
 
milkweg said:
I have a 360 and set it up to use MCE with my mp3 library. It added WMP Network svc as an owner and its permissions are set to read only. I clicked on remove properties and now I can edit the files.
Click to expand...
Once more- you don't have a standard configuration, yet you are throwing blanket statements about how UAC is broken.


milkweg said:
Obviously you don't have a 360 and are using MCE in Vista over a network to a 360.
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Again making statements you have no clue about...
Actually, I do have a 360 and use MCE. And I didn't have any issues with it at all. Very easy to setup, my 360 can play any of my media, and my files are still owned by me.
 
I didn't say UAC is broken, I said it is not consistent in how it behaves. I believe it is the OP who said it is broken.

You don't have "WMP Network svc" listed as an owner of your mp3 files?
 
If UAC deletes/moves files without user consent it's truly broken. Which it does.. case closed.:rolleyes:
 
It was probably because I set WMP to allow sharing and setting the mp3's to read only stops anyone from being able to mess with the files. Not Vista's fault and I admit it was sort of my fault for not investigating further. I was getting around it by just letting MP3tag run as admin. No matter as I am trading the 360 to a friend for his PS3 so today went and set everything back to default.
 
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