vista release date?

hacktor2

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my friend is buying a computer from dell or HP or whatever (yes i know he should build his own but he knows nothing about computers) and he is wondering whether or not he should wait because of the vista release. Should he get a comp now with xp or wait until release of vista?
 

djnes

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He'll be waiting quite some time for Vista's release, so I would get the computer now.

I am going to say I am biased, since I work for HP, but if his choices are a Dell or an HP....definitely go with the HP. If you think he will learn about computers, and will want to upgrade it in the future, stick with the HP because it uses standard parts. Dell still uses proprietary motherboards and PSUs, because they feel everything else publicly available is inferior (taken from a recent MaximumPC article).

Secondly, if your friend doesn't know anything about computers, support is something to consider. HP won the JD Power award for best support by a tech company this year....whereas Dell has been trashed for the last couple of years for their degrading support quality.
 

S1nF1xx

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Vista is slated for a fall release. Being the pessimist I am, I'm going to predict early Q2 2007. If he buys a computer now, there will be plenty of time for it to become obsolete before Vista is released. :)
 

Grimmda

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Suprising he knows enough about to computers to even ask if he should wait for Vista... I don't know any people that "don't know a lot about computers" that even know that's the name for the next OS from Microsoft.
I also concur with tell him to go ahead and buy one now...
 

pxc

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S1nF1xx said:
Vista is slated for a fall release. Being the pessimist I am, I'm going to predict early Q2 2007.
A public release candidate is due in 2 months. It's scheduled to go gold by mid- to late summer, in time for back to school system sales. RTM leads general availablility by 1-2 months.
 

djnes

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pxc said:
A public release candidate is due in 2 months. It's scheduled to go gold by mid- to late summer, in time for back to school system sales. RTM leads general availablility by 1-2 months.
While everything you say is true, a safe bet would be that it would be delayed. Most Microsoft OSes were delayed before eventually being released.
 

pxc

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djnes said:
While everything you say is true, a safe bet would be that it would be delayed. Most Microsoft OSes were delayed before eventually being released.
Uh, Vista/Longhorn has already been delayed. :p It was due to be released in 2005 back when MS was hyping it's features in 2003.

The release schedule looks pretty firm at this late stage. You'll see systems with Vista available for sale by September.
 

Steeeeve

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djnes said:
He'll be waiting quite some time for Vista's release, so I would get the computer now.

I am going to say I am biased, since I work for HP, but if his choices are a Dell or an HP....definitely go with the HP. If you think he will learn about computers, and will want to upgrade it in the future, stick with the HP because it uses standard parts. Dell still uses proprietary motherboards and PSUs, because they feel everything else publicly available is inferior (taken from a recent MaximumPC article).

Secondly, if your friend doesn't know anything about computers, support is something to consider. HP won the JD Power award for best support by a tech company this year....whereas Dell has been trashed for the last couple of years for their degrading support quality.

Maybe if they stopped putting crappy harddrives in their laptops I wouldn't complain about Dells tech support >:eek: anyway...yeah...i had 3 die in 3 years.
 

djnes

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pxc said:
Uh, Vista/Longhorn has already been delayed. :p It was due to be released in 2005 back when MS was hyping it's features in 2003.

The release schedule looks pretty firm at this late stage. You'll see systems with Vista available for sale by September.
Remember that when it's delayed near the end...in keeping with Microsoft tradition...as mentioned above...don't be surprised if it's not available until sometime in 2007. Our OS guys have been told not to be shocked if it's pushed back into 2007.
 

S1nF1xx

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I wish they'd just delay the damned thing longer and put WinFS in it from the get-go.
 

AcidTone

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S1nF1xx said:
I wish they'd just delay the damned thing longer and put WinFS in it from the get-go.


That is what i was thinking......... This is the only reason I would buy vista before sp1 came out for it. From the sounds of it they will offer winfs for xp also (not sure if it is true or not but that is the rumor I heard)
 

Direwolf20

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Also, I don't plan on updating to Vista on the day of release. I'll wait for a few patches, or maybe even SP1 before upgrading :).
 

pxc

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djnes said:
Dell still uses proprietary motherboards and PSUs
Dell uses standard ATX 12v PSUs, except on a couple of SFF models and the high end XPS systems (the shape is larger, but still uses standard ATX 12v pinouts). The 4 slot motherboards are standard microATX or microBTX.
I thought this, because they feel everything else publicly available is inferior (taken from a recent MaximumPC article).
Have a link to this? I can not find any "recent" article with that statement.

Secondly, if your friend doesn't know anything about computers, support is something to consider. HP won the JD Power award for best support by a tech company this year....whereas Dell has been trashed for the last couple of years for their degrading support quality.
HP didn't "win" anything. The "J.D. Power and Associates Certified Technology Service and Support certification" is a new label given to anyone who pays J.D. Power the fees to go through the "certification" process and manages to be in the top 20% of service and support, which most major computer companies do (including Dell, Apple, Gateway and Lenovo). You're mixing a paid service with anecdotal bias. http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2005/nov/1209048.htm

TBR computer support survey 6/2005 (Dell 82.1%, HP 81.7%)http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1827515,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03119TX1K0000594

ACSI is the standard in computer satisfaction and the new survey is due in a couple of months. 8/2005 (Dell 74/100, HP 73/100, Compaq 67/100... the lowest of any brand) http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/08/15/HNcustomerratings_1.html

IMO, both Dell and HP are pretty lame on support and service. I've owned both in the last 12 months (2 Dell desktops, 2 Dell laptops, 2 HP desktops, 2 HP laptops). It might amaze the young ones, but computer support has been in the toilet for over 10 years. It wasn't this bad a long time ago.
 

S1nF1xx

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pxc said:
Have a link to this? I can not find any "recent" article with that statement.

I can vouch for that, I read the article too.
 

pxc

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S1nF1xx said:
I can vouch for that, I read the article too.
Have a link? I want to read it. It's doubtful the statement is as blunt as djnes wrote.

I found an ars thread from 2001 mentioning the Maximum PC article, but that's not "recent." That was in the middle of theinq stirring up 2 year old information.
 

Direwolf20

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djnes said:
He'll be waiting quite some time for Vista's release, so I would get the computer now.

I am going to say I am biased, since I work for HP, but if his choices are a Dell or an HP....definitely go with the HP. If you think he will learn about computers, and will want to upgrade it in the future, stick with the HP because it uses standard parts. Dell still uses proprietary motherboards and PSUs, because they feel everything else publicly available is inferior (taken from a recent MaximumPC article).

Secondly, if your friend doesn't know anything about computers, support is something to consider. HP won the JD Power award for best support by a tech company this year....whereas Dell has been trashed for the last couple of years for their degrading support quality.

I'm going to also vote HP over Dell, mostly because I couldn't stand those "Dude, you're gettin a Dell!" commercials, and that guy they had in the commercial was annoying too.
 

djnes

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pxc said:
Have a link? I want to read it. It's doubtful the statement is as blunt as djnes wrote.

I found an ars thread from 2001 mentioning the Maximum PC article, but that's not "recent." That was in the middle of theinq stirring up 2 year old information.
It wasn't an article, so there isn't going to be a link. It was in response to a reader question who had a Dell and wanted to upgrade it. MaximumPC described how and why Dell uses proprietary parts, which was a nice jab at Dell, and then proceeded to tell the user to buy a new machine, rather than trying to upgrade the Dell. This was the most recent issue.

Oh, and by the way...we did win the award from JD Power. We had an all-hands video conference with representatives from JD Power to present it. As a shareholder, I also received some hoopla in the mail about it.

I love it when facts are posted, and yet someone still has issue with them. :rolleyes:
 

S1nF1xx

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pxc said:
Have a link? I want to read it. It's doubtful the statement is as blunt as djnes wrote.

I found an ars thread from 2001 mentioning the Maximum PC article, but that's not "recent." That was in the middle of theinq stirring up 2 year old information.


I believe was a comment by an editor, using sarcasm to describe why Dell uses proprietary parts.

There are more accurate reasons as to why Dell uses goofy-assed parts. They all boil down to more $$$ for Mike
 

Slartibartfast

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In college I did tech support for dorm students for a few years. It was a smallish liberal arts college so nobody knew anything, and almost every comp. I worked on was Dell or Gateway. So from that experience, let me just say:

Friends don't let friends buy Dell.

Call me biased if you like, but one of my full-time supervisors was so fed up with Dell's that he started refusing to fix them. I saw more than one brand new Dell machine that was totally DOA.

Back on topic:

I agree, don't bother waiting for vista. XP will be fine for quite a while (2000 is still fine), and if your friend doesn't know much about computers any differences between the two os's will be lost on him anyway.
 

S1nF1xx

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Slartibartfast said:
Friends don't let friends buy Dell.

The bottom line is that Dells are disposable computers. They are not designed to last 6 years through two upgrades. They are engineered, built, and sold to be used for a few years and thrown out.

That isn't necessarily a good thing or bad thing. For the average user it's good, it gets them a cheap computer. For someone bordering on the edge of being an enthusiast it's a bad thing. They usually learn pretty quickly why the computer was so cheap to begin with.

You need to pick which side of the fence you are on and buy accordingly.
 

djnes

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Slartibartfast said:
XP will be fine for quite a while (2000 is still fine), and if your friend doesn't know much about computers any differences between the two os's will be lost on him anyway.
That's an excellent point that should be considered. Even if Vista is available on it's target date, XP isn't going to suddenly become worthless. I'm sure I'll get a copy of Vista through work for testing as soon as it's available, but it will probably be a while before I'd switch and use it on my main home machine. XP works quite well for me now, so I'm not in a hurry to get rid of it.
 

S1nF1xx

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djnes said:
That's an excellent point that should be considered. Even if Vista is available on it's target date, XP isn't going to suddenly become worthless. I'm sure I'll get a copy of Vista through work for testing as soon as it's available, but it will probably be a while before I'd switch and use it on my main home machine. XP works quite well for me now, so I'm not in a hurry to get rid of it.

Plus WinFS is more than likely going to find its way onto XP in SP3, according to most rumors anyway. XP still has a good shelf life, especially in the business world.
 

djnes

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Definitely. Up until about 9 month to a year ago, we still had people running 2000 on their machines. Just 6 months ago, our image team stopped making 2000 images.
 

pxc

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djnes said:
It wasn't an article, so there isn't going to be a link. It was in response to a reader question who had a Dell and wanted to upgrade it. MaximumPC described how and why Dell uses proprietary parts, which was a nice jab at Dell, and then proceeded to tell the user to buy a new machine, rather than trying to upgrade the Dell. This was the most recent issue.

Oh, and by the way...we did win the award from JD Power. We had an all-hands video conference with representatives from JD Power to present it. As a shareholder, I also received some hoopla in the mail about it.

I love it when facts are posted, and yet someone still has issue with them. :rolleyes:
You can call J.D. Power/SSPA and see how to pay to go through the "J.D. Power and Associates Certified Technology Service and Support certification" process. It means little since all major computer companies are in the top 20% of support. The bar is so low that even Apple is praised for B- support (81/100). :p BTW, if you had bothered to read HP's own press release on the J.D. Power certification, they didn't claim to win anything: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/051116a.html

To earn the certification, HP performed within the top 20 percent of technology support organizations on a variety of customer service criteria. J.D. Power and Associates found that HP has met or exceeded this new standard for customer satisfaction in supporting its North American customers.

Next.

So Dell didn't say what you claimed, an editor said it. That makes more sense. 1/2 the time they give bad advice. Like I mentioned above, Dell uses standard ATX 12v PSUs in most systems (excluding high end XPS models and SFF systems) and 4 slot boards are standard microATX/microBTX. If the letter to the editor writer had an ancient Dell (P3 or older), proprietary PSUs and motherboards are a problem. But upgrading to a new motherboard and CPU would require a new PSU anyways for something that old. The editor's answer was most likely an ignorant cop-out if the system was a P4.

I posted sources (objective surveys) and HP isn't doing as well as you claimed, especially not better than Dell. Your unsourced statements are opinions, actually not reflecting reality.
 

djnes

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That press release was not referring to the same thing I was...but I digress. I don't need to be pulled down into another argument with someone just looking for a fight. If you want further information to feed fight hunger, talk to some people in the industry about what Gartner Group and others like them have to say about Dell. Then, find some people who are investors in Dell, and ask them about the proxy votes on Michael Dell's future with the company, and why the shareholders were so pissed off.

As for the Dell PSUs, I've had to help quite a few people replace Dell PSUs on run of the mill towers, and couldn't use over the counter PSUs. You have a choice of buying one through Dell for a huge fee, or going with a specially made 3rd party one, such as what PC Power & Cooling sells, for a very large fee as well. As far as the system being a P4, well considering Dell doesn't sell AMD equipped machines, that pretty much narrows it down to 100% of their consumer machines, doesn't it?
 

pxc

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djnes said:
That press release was not referring to the same thing I was...but I digress. I don't need to be pulled down into another argument with someone just looking for a fight. If you want further information to feed fight hunger, talk to some people in the industry about what Gartner Group and others like them have to say about Dell. Then, find some people who are investors in Dell, and ask them about the proxy votes on Michael Dell's future with the company, and why the shareholders were so pissed off.

As for the Dell PSUs, I've had to help quite a few people replace Dell PSUs on run of the mill towers, and couldn't use over the counter PSUs. You have a choice of buying one through Dell for a huge fee, or going with a specially made 3rd party one, such as what PC Power & Cooling sells, for a very large fee as well. As far as the system being a P4, well considering Dell doesn't sell AMD equipped machines, that pretty much narrows it down to 100% of their consumer machines, doesn't it?
You can step in any time with links to support your claims, but you haven't. Opinions are cheap.

Let's see a Gartner link to support your claim(s), just for starters.

Let's see a link to the J.D. Powers award you're talking about.

Dell has made computers for longer than the P4's existence. Slot1/Socket370 P3 and older systems used proprietary PSUs exclusively. Dell P4 systems use standard ATX 12v PSUs (with a few exceptions). I hope that's clear now. I made the distinction above but you must have missed it.

ATX 12v PSUs come in 2 main styles, with and without rear power switches. I have a few of both types, all off the shelf. I have never owned a Dell in the last 3.5 years (over a dozen models, desktops and servers) that couldn't use a standard ATX 12v PSU without a rear power switch. And that wasn't a new "feature" even 3.5 years ago. :rolleyes:

Someone's inability to install a stock PSU in a standard ATX 12v Dell case says more about his technical inability than anything else. :p
 

djnes

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My claims aren't anything because I work for the company, not you. I'm not risking my job posting some internal documents just to satisfy some petty argument with a guy who has nothing better to do but argue incessantly because he can't handle not knowing 100% about everything.

As far as the Gartner group links....it was a print ad...nothing on the web as far as I know. PCWorld and many other mags review PC vendors and rank them for support. We've beaten Dell the past three years. Since you have so much free time, search their website.

Each person I was referring to that had a bad PSU called Dell asking about a replacement, if they could use one off the shelf for an immediate fix, until they were given a new PSU (which was covered under their warranty plans). The answer in each case was no, the pins are incompatible. If you disagree with this, you should call the tech support of your beloved Dell and ask them. Sorry, I can't provide a link to phone calls.

The link you posted above is dated Novermber 16, 2005. The meeting I am referring to was back in the spring, and had to be before May, when my old office closed. I was in our satellite feed room in that office to watch the award ceremony I am referring to.
 

ccarrigan

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S1nF1xx said:
The bottom line is that Dells are disposable computers. They are not designed to last 6 years through two upgrades. They are engineered, built, and sold to be used for a few years and thrown out.

That isn't necessarily a good thing or bad thing. For the average user it's good, it gets them a cheap computer. For someone bordering on the edge of being an enthusiast it's a bad thing. They usually learn pretty quickly why the computer was so cheap to begin with.

You need to pick which side of the fence you are on and buy accordingly.

Right, for the most part. If you buy a $499 PC, you get a $499 PC. Get one from their business line and pay $1,200 for it, and you get $1,200 worth. They stock better parts on those models, have better support (Small Business machines (Optiplex) have U.S. based support), and are generally better machines. The newest Dimension $299 special in the Dell catalog is.... well... $299 :-P
 
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djnes said:
f you think he will learn about computers, and will want to upgrade it in the future, stick with the HP because it uses standard parts.

OP:
If you think he will learn about computers and want to upgrade, he should go with neither.

Secondly, if your friend doesn't know anything about computers, support is something to consider. HP won the JD Power award for best support by a tech company this year....whereas Dell has been trashed for the last couple of years for their degrading support quality.

I can attest to the degrading support quality of Dell (dealt with their India reps regarding a friend's laptop hdd failure), but I can also attest to the relative irrelevance of JD Power's awards. I don't know the situation but it'd be possible for any company to have bad support and still win the award because they're the best. In my view, those awards are almost akin to movie reviews... a bullet on a marketing brief most likely paid for or in the very least rewarded for.

Nothing beats some good old fashioned first hand research. I'm not saying ignore this guy, I'm saying listen to him, but listen to everyone else, too. Then make an informed decision.
 

fozzinop

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To the OP:

If you have any idea about computers (which I'm assuming you do), offer him to build the PC for him (either free if you're great friends, or charge him a small fee).

This way he'll get it cheaper (in almost all cases), it'll be more reliable, stable, and will certainly last him longer. It will also be more stable.

If he goes against the route, I'd advise against both Dell and HP since I've had both in my early PC days, and certainly hated both, from the what-you-get-for-your-money and customer support standpoint. I was pretty happy with my Gateway 3 years ago. (That's when I finally decided to build my first PC). I don't know how they are now since I haven't heard much, but I'd believe that they are still better than Dell/HP in quality. Anyways this is just my opinion, but I would definetly (if you feel up for it) ask your friend if he wants you to build it for him.
 

powerade

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S1nF1xx said:
Vista is slated for a fall release. Being the pessimist I am, I'm going to predict early Q2 2007. If he buys a computer now, there will be plenty of time for it to become obsolete before Vista is released. :)


i really get tired of people jumping on the bandwagon about everything. Have u read any reviews on beta 2 of vista?? Also computers dont become obsolete, between now and xmas o6 i slightly doubt ur friend is gonna be debating a computer based on his performance in a newer version of photo shop or premier, especialy if he doesnt know anything about comps
 

djnes

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nickcarr said:
It will be out this year. ;)
As announced for now, but as it's been beaten to death in this thread, Microsoft usually delays the release towards the end. It happened with XP, it happened with 2000, etc etc. Anyone that's going to sit and argue that it will DEFINITELY be out this year is either too young or too ignorant to remember the past releases. We'd all love it to be released on time....but that isn't the usual case.
 
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