Vista Not Using 2nd GPU in SLI/Crossfire!?

As I mentioned in another thread, there seems to be some ambiguity here. The title of the Knowledge Base article refers to multiple cards, but the details under the Symptoms section appear to be talking about single cards with mutliple GPUs, such as the 7950GX2 (Rage Fury Maxx? Voodoo 5 6000?:) ). If that's the case, then it may not be a magic SLI/Crossfire fix after all.
 
Commander Suzdal said:
As I mentioned in another thread, there seems to be some ambiguity here. The title of the Knowledge Base article refers to multiple cards, but the details under the Symptoms section appear to be talking about single cards with mutliple GPUs, such as the 7950GX2 (Rage Fury Maxx? Voodoo 5 6000?:) ). If that's the case, then it may not be a magic SLI/Crossfire fix after all.
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The system sees these scenarios as one and the same. Hence you can put 2 gpu's on 1 card into SLI.
 
Sr7 said:
The system sees these scenarios as one and the same. Hence you can put 2 gpu's on 1 card into SLI.
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No. SLI/CF on one card uses a single connection to the PCI Express bus, via a bridge chip. Both the Sapphire X1950 Pro Dual and 79x0GX2 cards use a bridge. The hot fix seems to address this situation.

SLI/CF via 2 separate cards have each GPU connected directly to the PCI bus, which for obvious reasons is different from above.
 
pxc said:
No. SLI/CF on one card uses a single connection to the PCI Express bus, via a bridge chip. Both the Sapphire X1950 Pro Dual and 79x0GX2 cards use a bridge. The hot fix seems to address this situation.

SLI/CF via 2 separate cards have each GPU connected directly to the PCI bus, which for obvious reasons is different from above.
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Hey genius, I know how these hook up. I'm saying SLI can be enabled in either physical setup, and whatever was occurring there could occur in both cases.
 
Sr7 said:
Hey genius, I know how these hook up. I'm saying SLI can be enabled in either physical setup, and whatever was occurring there could occur in both cases.
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The hotfix description says differently. :rolleyes: And the connection of each GPU to the bus in those 2 cases are very different. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
pxc said:
The hotfix description says differently. :rolleyes: And the connection of each GPU to the bus in those 2 cases are very different. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Nowhere does it state anything about the bus or the connection method as being a cause for the issue..
 
Sr7 said:
Hey genius, I know how these hook up. I'm saying SLI can be enabled in either physical setup, and whatever was occurring there could occur in both cases.
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If he is a genuis then he must know what he is talking about? Or are you just being an ass?
 
Hagrid said:
Thanks. Maybe im a genius too? Just makin a point that being rude doesnt help what you are saying is all.
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Well maybe you should make a point to re-read the patronizing tone he took when attempting to "correct" me before you get involved.
 
Sr7 said:
Well maybe you should make a point to re-read the patronizing tone he took when attempting to "correct" me before you get involved.
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Taking a tone and flat out being an ass are completely different. I did read it, but I didnt see any name callin on his side? Guess I am not a little kid anymore.... Getting old I guess. :cool: :eek:
 
Hagrid said:
Taking a tone and flat out being an ass are completely different. I did read it, but I didnt see any name callin on his side? Guess I am not a little kid anymore.... Getting old I guess. :cool: :eek:
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It's not name calling, it's sarcasm. Look it up.
 
Consider the following scenario:
• You have a Windows Vista-based computer that uses a high-performance video card.
• This video card uses multiple graphics processing units (GPUs).
Click to expand...


Note that it says "video card" and "This video card uses". Note the lack of an "s" at the end of "card" in both cases. They are talking about a single card with multiple GPUs. This is very clear if you really read what it says vs what you think it says.

I do not understand why there is confusion on this point. It is "in black and white", so to speak. Maybe some people have problems with the use of "s" or "es" to indicate plurality. :confused:
 
Betrayer00GT said:
Note that it says "video card" and "This video card uses". Note the lack of an "s" at the end of "card" in both cases. They are talking about a single card with multiple GPUs. This is very clear if you really read what it says vs what you think it says.

I do not understand why there is confusion on this point. It is "in black and white", so to speak. Maybe some people have problems with the use of "s" or "es" to indicate plurality. :confused:
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Hey dude, so here's the REALLY funny part. Read the title of the hotfix:

"On a Windows Vista-based computer that has multiple graphics cards (GPUs), the computer does not use the secondary GPU"

HAHA wow... couldn't be more clearly stated than that! Guess what.. the OS sees 2 gpu's on 1 card the same that it does 2 gpu's on separate cards! So how could an issue affect one case and not the other! We're learning a lot today guys!
 
Sr7 said:
Hey dude, so here's the REALLY funny part. Read the title of the hotfix:

"On a Windows Vista-based computer that has multiple graphics cards (GPUs), the computer does not use the secondary GPU"

HAHA wow... couldn't be more clearly stated than that! Guess what.. the OS sees 2 gpu's on 1 card the same that it does 2 gpu's on separate cards! So how could an issue affect one case and not the other! We're learning a lot today guys!
Click to expand...

Maybe the person who titles it is not the same person who writes the "Symptoms" heading of the tech article. Maybe the person that creates the title has the same issue with plurals that many here have. Or, maybe, as the parenthetical of GPU following "video cards" indicates, they are using GPU and video card interchangeably in the title.

The "Symptoms" is where I am going for what the article is addressing, not the title. The title is just a blurb on what is being addressed. There is a difference. Good luck in your continued education. :D

Just because you and I do not understand the mechanism that makes the two issues separate does not mean there isn't one. There is a difference between not knowing something is true and it being false. Right?
 
Ever watch Jay Leno's Headlines feature on the Tonight Show? Sometimes the people who write headlines make mistakes.

Single-card and dual-card SLI may present the same interface to the user through the drivers, but that does not mean that either the drivers or the OS kernel see them exactly the same "behind the scenes." There are many documented cases of single-card SLI not working as consistently as its dual-card equivalent, and Vista users have had a lot of trouble with the 7950GX2 in particular.

The technical notes within the article imply rather strongly that the issue involves "seeing" a second GPU that is "hiding behind" the first one, in a sense, on a single bus connection. If this issue applied to all SLI setups, we would not have had many forum members report using SLI successfully under Vista, and we have.
 
Commander Suzdal said:
Ever watch Jay Leno's Headlines feature on the Tonight Show? Sometimes the people who write headlines make mistakes.

Single-card and dual-card SLI may present the same interface to the user through the drivers, but that does not mean that either the drivers or the OS kernel see them exactly the same "behind the scenes." There are many documented cases of single-card SLI not working as consistently as its dual-card equivalent, and Vista users have had a lot of trouble with the 7950GX2 in particular.

The technical notes within the article imply rather strongly that the issue involves "seeing" a second GPU that is "hiding behind" the first one, in a sense, on a single bus connection. If this issue applied to all SLI setups, we would not have had many forum members report using SLI successfully under Vista, and we have.
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That means nothing... you have no idea how widespread the issue is by reading the article. How could you use "it must be this way cause it works most of the time" as your proof?

And why would you automatically assume the person who wrote the headline is incorrect... why couldn't it just as easily be the other way around?

By the way, Betrayer, I saw your patronizing statement before you edited it out. I'm sorry but you lose at life for that.
 
Sr7 said:
That means nothing... you have no idea how widespread the issue is by reading the article. How could you use that as your "it must be this way cause it works most of the time" proof?
Click to expand...

He wasn't using the article "as [his] "it must be this way cause it works most of the time" proof". Have you read many complaints on this forum or anywhere else of dual card SLI not working in Vista with the 158.43 (Beta) or higher drivers? I have seen several posts of SLI Vista users (32bit, at least). That is why my second XFX 8800GTS 640MB will be here on Monday.
 
Sr7 said:
That means nothing... you have no idea how widespread the issue is by reading the article. How could you use "it must be this way cause it works most of the time" as your proof?

And why would you automatically assume the person who wrote the headline is incorrect... why couldn't it just as easily be the other way around?

By the way, Betrayer, I saw your patronizing statement before you edited it out. I'm sorry but you lose at life for that.
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What, for editing it out? LOL

We all make mistakes. It is how we react to them that shows whether we win or loose at life, man. Come off it. I saw I was wrong and I fixed it.

The person who wrote the "Symptoms" section wrote the point of the whole web page. The title is just a brief synopsis that almost doesn't even matter. Technically, the headline isn't incorrect. It is vague. It seems to use GPU and video card interchangeably. I wouldn't have done it, but I could see how someone could make that generalization in a title.

Not in the "Symptoms", though. The "Symptoms" information is not vague. I also do not think it is incorrect, or imprecise. Before you get all mad, that is not because of the article, that is because there are reports of problems with the 7950 GX2 for Vista users.

My roommate uses that card... that is one of the reasons he does not use Vista now, since I have not run into any issues that would keep him from running it, otherwise. There is also the cost issue for him, but those two are about it.
 
Betrayer00GT said:
He wasn't using the article "as [his] "it must be this way cause it works most of the time" proof". Have you read many complaints on this forum or anywhere else of dual card SLI not working in Vista with the 158.43 (Beta) or higher drivers? I have seen several posts of SLI Vista users (32bit, at least). That is why my second XFX 8800GTS 640MB will be here on Monday.
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No... and I also have not read any complaints about dual-GPU/single-PCIE slot solutions not working correctly. Therefore the absence of something on some forums is not proof it doesn't exist.
 
Come on guys, even Fudzilla knows this issue is limited to multiple GPU's on a single card. :p

On a serious note, the release notes on the hotfix seem pretty clear that this isn't for SLI/Crossfire users with multiple cards. My old Crossfire setup seemed to work perfectly fine under Vista x64. Who knows, maybe I'm mistaken.
 
Sr7 said:
No... and I also have not read any complaints about dual-GPU/single-PCIE slot solutions not working correctly. Therefore the absence of something on some forums is not proof it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

You not reading them on this forum is not proof they do not exist, either. In fact, how many dual card SLI users are there running Vista? Now, how many 7950 GX2 users (or even all dual GPU single cards) are there running Vista? Way different number. Harder to find, not untrue.

The absence of complaints and the presence of "it's working for me" type posts is pretty convincing, however. (for dual card SLI)
 
Sr7 said:
No... and I also have not read any complaints about dual-GPU/single-PCIE slot solutions not working correctly. Therefore the absence of something on some forums is not proof it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

I have not attempted to prove anything. I have only tried to demonstrate why I raised the question and why it is a reasonable one. There is an inconsistency between the title and the text of the article, one that could use clarification either way.

My suggested explanation for the inconsistency is reasonable as well, given the experiences described frequently by both forum members and [H] reviewers of problems with dual-GPU cards and SLI under both XP and Vista. Since you say you have not read any such posts, I suggest you go to the nVidia subforum of the Video Cards forum and search on the terms "7950GX2" and "Vista." I am sure you will find it educational.

However, since your primary concern seems to be the refusal to admit that your initial post was uninformed, I doubt that learning more about the topic will be of interest to you.

Edit: Moofasa's post above settles it.
 
Anyone got a link to this download this, or are we all just calling microsoft? I'm thinking this may fix my FX 4500 issues since the Dell riser uses the nvidia bridge chip...
 
The Fudzilla article that Moofasa linked above has a link to a download on Guru3D. So your Dell supports SLI via a riser card with a bridge chip? Freaky! Let's see, now, Quadros on an OEM-customized mobo with an OS that won't talk through a bridge. I wonder if they could make that any more complicated?:eek:
 
So what ATI card does crossfire on a single card? Just wondering cause I dont follow those much and there is all this debate about what the intent of the patch is. I actually have SLi and am using it under vista and can say that after the hotfix I have no difference in performance. I have been wondering if its working under vista though because my performance in SLI is not very far off of what I experienced with a single GPU. The video driver also frequently crashes and you have to restart to get video performance back again.

So im going to have to piss all over this "Hotfix" as it did nothing for me , or my buddy with one of the x2 cards.
 
Raidium said:
I actually have SLi and am using it under vista and can say that after the hotfix I have no difference in performance. I have been wondering if its working under vista though because my performance in SLI is not very far off of what I experienced with a single GPU.
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Well, SLI is not supported in Vista until 158.43 (Beta) on the Nvidia display drivers. The current WHQL drivers on their site (158.24) do not yet support it (for 32bit or 64). You want 158.43 (or a higher numbered beta, since they are out) in order to run SLI successfully under Vista. My second 8800GTS 640MB should be delivered by DHL today, and I installed 163.11 (beta) a couple days ago in preperation.

Also, some time certain games are "not very far off of what I experienced with a single GPU" when everything is working perfectly. Check around the web for benchmarks of your game(s) and see if you can find the "normal" difference between SLI and a single card.

That is what I can come up with off the top of my head. Hopefully there is something there you haven't seen yet, and it was helpful.

Good luck. (to me too)
 
i think there was a patch uploaded today that fixes this problem - go dl it!
 
Betrayer00GT said:
Well, SLI is not supported in Vista until 158.43 (Beta) on the Nvidia display drivers. The current WHQL drivers on their site (158.24) do not yet support it (for 32bit or 64). You want 158.43 (or a higher numbered beta, since they are out) in order to run SLI successfully under Vista. My second 8800GTS 640MB should be delivered by DHL today, and I installed 163.11 (beta) a couple days ago in preperation.

Also, some time certain games are "not very far off of what I experienced with a single GPU" when everything is working perfectly. Check around the web for benchmarks of your game(s) and see if you can find the "normal" difference between SLI and a single card.

That is what I can come up with off the top of my head. Hopefully there is something there you haven't seen yet, and it was helpful.

Good luck. (to me too)
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Tried all the latest beta drivers, keep getting display driver crashes so I went back to whql and at least its stable now. the beta WIC drivers worked great with a single card and there were some performance gains. SLI is a crap shoot though. I used to be impressed with evga support, but when it comes to SLI they are fraking clueless.
 
Commander Suzdal said:
The Fudzilla article that Moofasa linked above has a link to a download on Guru3D. So your Dell supports SLI via a riser card with a bridge chip? Freaky! Let's see, now, Quadros on an OEM-customized mobo with an OS that won't talk through a bridge. I wonder if they could make that any more complicated?:eek:
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Tell me about it, and the riser card won't support multiple ATI cards at all, it bluescreens the box when you put two ATI cards in and install the CATs, one card works fine though. You also can't pull the riser card because of the case design...
 
ND40oz said:
Tell me about it, and the riser card won't support multiple ATI cards at all, it bluescreens the box when you put two ATI cards in and install the CATs, one card works fine though. You also can't pull the riser card because of the case design...
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I'm guessing bridge chips have to be nVidia or ATi specific, unfortunately. Did the hotfix solve your problem? I know it's caused you a world of pain from some of your other posts.
 
Commander Suzdal said:
I'm guessing bridge chips have to be nVidia or ATi specific, unfortunately. Did the hotfix solve your problem? I know it's caused you a world of pain from some of your other posts.
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Looks like it's actually working now with the 160 drivers. Atleast I was able to enable it and 3Dmark05 ran, 12648. I'll give it more of a shake down in the coming days.
 
Raidium said:
Tried all the latest beta drivers...

SLI is a crap shoot though. ...
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Well, I hope I win my crap shoot.

I missed DHL this morning as they showed up way earlier than I was expecting. It doesn't really matter, though. I need to pick up the water cooling parts for the new card (MCW60-r block and an MC8800 hs kit), and a case that will fit everything with a second 8800GTS installed. Probably a P182. I just need to test the one I missed today for DOA, incase an RMA is needed.

I do not expect SLI problems when everything eventually gets setup how I want it, but I will find out one way or the other in the next few weeks, I am sure.
 
So here's the extremely funny part: I was right all along. I've confirmed with a friend in the graphics industry.

This fix (though the description appears as only referring to single slot, dual-gpu solutions) applies to DX10 SLI/Crossfire in the general case in Vista. The system does not differentiate between single slot and dual slot SLI/Crossfire. They are seen as the same, and this is why you just see 2 GPU's in your device manager when you install a driver.. just as though you had 2 cards (because you do). It's just a matter of form factor.

AGAIN.. this fix applies to ALL DX10 SLI/Crossfire. It turns out Microsoft just has a very very poor description and this will soon be updated.

I don't expect you to believe me, but when they do update it (not sure how soon but I'd expect it by the time they update it to include actual links to the fix instead of making you call to get it) I'll accept your apologies.

Thanks... gg.
 
Sr7 said:
So here's the extremely funny part: I was right all along. I've confirmed with a friend in the graphics industry.
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OK, I will never call support and never install the update previous to trying my crap shoot. If it works flawlessly with no such update...

If it is a giant piece of crap shoot...


???

:cool:

It's not about believing you. It is about results, right?

:D
 
CRAZY idea... has anyone tried benchmarking with an SLI setup before and after applying this patch in vista...

Just a thought.
 
RyanLucier said:
CRAZY idea... has anyone tried benchmarking with an SLI setup before and after applying this patch in vista...
Click to expand...
Yeah, and the general results on several boards for 2 cards are no difference.

But for some strange reason the patch seems to have helped ND40oz with 2 GPUs behind an external PCI-E bridge, kind of like what the patch claims to fix. :p
 
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