Vista ME

[syntx]

Seriously, I have a hard time finding the culprit.

Been using Vista for 5 months now (since betas). I've endured bad drivers long enough that I somewhat forgot how bad they really were.

I would like for someone to explain to me, WITHOUT starting a new "Vista is amazing" or "Vista sucks" discussion, who's to blame for such a shitty user experience.

This is my setup:

AMD Opteron 175 + nForce4 DFI Expert SLI-DR
4GB RAM Mushkin
evga 7800 GT OC + evga 7100 GS
3 x 160GB Seagate NCQ
4 x 250GB Seagate NCQ in RAID5 on SIliconImage
ATI Theater 550
Audigy 2 Platinum
BenQ FP241W + Dell 2405

(Please do not attempt to give me easy solutions, I've tried all combinations of PCI slots, removed pci cards, disabled on-board components, installed latest drivers, etc...
However I never get a crash.)

Some problems in Vista:

1- Sound is popping and cracking all kinds.
2- Playing videos takes 20-30% CPU usage.
3- Playing 2 videos at same time makes 1 of them jerky and unwatchable.
4- Every game I have is jerkier and slower on Vista, sometimes not by much and sometimes by a lot. Sound is also popping like crazy.
5- Opening 5-10 idle windows slows down the computer noticeably.
6- Hard Drive works for long periods of time and that annoys me much.
7- Windows Media Player doesn't take my installed codec by insist in taking the crappy default one.
8- Media Center TV playback is jerky and sound is popping.
9- On desktop with no windows open, why is selecting a wide area so slow? I mean the blue selected area box is drawn so slowly... WTF

Most of these problems are probably due to bad drivers but seriously...

Do any of you experience the popping? What about the video playback?

 

[darkangel74]

I had troubles with video playback here lately. Media Player when closed is still playing audio even though closed. It seems not to terminate when I hit the X button. VLC Player skips pretty much every 1 min 20 seconds. It doesn't happen on my XP machine. I have a pretty hefty system.

I can't give you any solutions just to say you aren't alone.

 

[Tzzird]

Try reposting on the Operating Systems subforum. Lots of regulars there that would be glad to help you out--my experience at least.

 

[calebb]

I know you said don't ask for easy solutions...but...

Did you update to the ~March 20 Creative drivers?

I also have an Audigy 2 and noticed the crackling and popping when I was using the previous drivers (~12/17/06)

I'm not sure about the other issues - I'll talk to some other people at work and see if they have any suggestions.

Also, which video drivers are you using? At least you're not running 1 nvidia and 1 ATi card But that could be a culprit. There were 158.18 betas floating around for awhile - a few days ago, the final version of the 158.18's was released.

 

[Killroy]

I think I remember hearing that the popping sound happened you have 4GB of ram installed while using a Creative sound card, so if the update doesn't work you might try removing one stick of ram to see if that is it. I haven't had the problem of Media Player not accepting codecs but it does use a lot of my processor and skips sometimes, usually on HD videos, VLC even skipped on me. My roommate is pretty much unable to use Media Player (I believe it just locks up on him) but we both just use Media Player Classic now and don't have any problems.

 

[syntx]

I know you said don't ask for easy solutions...but...

Did you update to the ~March 20 Creative drivers?

I also have an Audigy 2 and noticed the crackling and popping when I was using the previous drivers (~12/17/06)

I'm not sure about the other issues - I'll talk to some other people at work and see if they have any suggestions.

Also, which video drivers are you using? At least you're not running 1 nvidia and 1 ATi card But that could be a culprit. There were 158.18 betas floating around for awhile - a few days ago, the final version of the 158.18's was released.

Thanx for replying, I do have the latest 158.18 WHQL and also the latest for audigy. What I find surprising is that most of my friends experience some subset of the problems I have including some others but we all get popping and crackling noises with our sound. The jerkiness in games is probably due to drivers but still I look into this forum and people who complain only talk about how Vista sucks because they don't like the icons and the fonts... Lets talk about real world everyday problems.

 

[dot_Zen]

Nvidia's drivers don't seem to like multiple monitors..

Having said that.. I run two myself, and one of the two is the same as your LCD.

I don't get the slow down with Media playback or most of those issues (including CPU usage or multiple videos slowdowns), so I'm unsure if this is just related to that. I'd tend to lean more with calebb; in that you should ensure all drivers have been properly updated.

Games, well, there's been a few issues, but nothing serious and I don't really get a whole lot of time to play any--most everything is video driver related. When I do it's been FEAR, Oblivion (for a little bit), STALKER, Company of Heros. Most play well, minus STALKER (which is supposed to be patched soon).

I actually stopped using my Audigy in XP, because of similar cracking and popping, so I'm all onbaord with this x64 machine. But I do have a 32 bit business machine that's using one and it did have the popping n' crackling until I updated the drivers a few months ago.

I'd say 5 and 6 are related to Superfetch or Indexing. I'm assuming you mean the RAID5 or all of your HDD's? If it's the RAID 5's that's going to be attributed to caching, write thru/back and some of the other cache/ IO settings. If all, then I'd point my finger at indexing and maybe consider stripping it down a bit, maybe just index common folders? You may also want to get to the advanced power options menu and adjust the "HDD turn off time"; default is 20 minutes.

9 is, well, I have no clue. Video issue symptom?


edit: I should add I don't like the SiliconImage controllers and refuse to use them.

Also, Nasty_Savage has a good suggestion.

 

[Nasty_Savage]

Are those seagate drives the SATAII drives? Are the dip switches that set the speed removed from ALL drives so the are all operating at the same speed?

 

[zacdl]

1- Sound is popping and cracking all kinds.
2- Playing videos takes 20-30% CPU usage.
3- Playing 2 videos at same time makes 1 of them jerky and unwatchable.
4- Every game I have is jerkier and slower on Vista, sometimes not by much and sometimes by a lot. Sound is also popping like crazy.
5- Opening 5-10 idle windows slows down the computer noticeably.
6- Hard Drive works for long periods of time and that annoys me much.
7- Windows Media Player doesn't take my installed codec by insist in taking the crappy default one.
8- Media Center TV playback is jerky and sound is popping.
9- On desktop with no windows open, why is selecting a wide area so slow? I mean the blue selected area box is drawn so slowly... WTF

I don't have any problems with Vista's sound, at least when I have used it (I am not playing it 24/7 or anything like that- that's what an MP3 player is for )

Haven't had the idle Window problem, probably because I've never routinely had that many windows open.

#6 has been explained quite a bit on these forums...

All the other stuff I haven't had troubles with, either.

Don't have a bit of problem with videos, but #3 should be expected... Really, it isn't designed to run two at once. How could you watch two at once anyways (Yea, I understand you technically could, but I think you know what I mean).

 

[calebb]

I don't have any problems with Vista's sound, at least when I have used it (I am not playing it 24/7 or anything like that- that's what an MP3 player is for )

Haven't had the idle Window problem, probably because I've never routinely had that many windows open.

#6 has been explained quite a bit on these forums...

All the other stuff I haven't had troubles with, either.

Don't have a bit of problem with videos, but #3 should be expected... Really, it isn't designed to run two at once. How could you watch two at once anyways (Yea, I understand you technically could, but I think you know what I mean).

I tend to disagree - I just opened WMP 11, Media Player Classic and Premiere CS3 beta - I had 4 clips playing and there was no lag. And I'm only running a P4...

You might try pulling out your second video card temporarily and see if that makes any difference at all.

I'm still baffled by the sound popping that you and your friends are encountering - I'm using a 'plain' audigy 2 w/ digital out to logitech z680 speakers. I had horrible sound garbage with the old drivers, but since the ones came out in March I haven't had a problem. I assumed it would fix it for everyone, but it sounds like that's not the case. Maybe there is a different driver (nvidia?) that is contributing to the sound crackles.

also, you aren't running kaspersky by any chance are you? I can name 3 severe issues that Kaspersky causes in Vista so I definitely don't recommend it to anyone until the work out the issues. (and disabling it is not sufficient to stop the problems it causes - you must uninstall it. It causes many file i/o issues such as 16,000 file copies max before you must reboot. Unable to change attributes on files in your root directory c:\ (hidden, system, etc))

 

[zacdl]

I tend to disagree - I just opened WMP 11, Media Player Classic and Premiere CS3 beta - I had 4 clips playing and there was no lag. And I'm only running a P4...

Hmmm... Like I said- I wouldn't EXPECT it to run well in the first place (EX spooling over the internet- I don't know if that is what is taking place or not), as you can only really watch one at a time.

Interesting that you don't have any problems though, but it isn't too often I try to run two videos at once (rarely... the only time I do is if I have one buffering while watching another).


Syntx - I can safely conclude that you have some odd problems

 

[drizzt81]

1- Sound is popping and cracking all kinds.

This makes me believe that you have a soundcard or soundcard driver issue.

2- Playing videos takes 20-30% CPU usage.

How does that compare to the CPU usage when playing an audio file? If the usage is high in that case as well, I would think that the two problems are related.

3- Playing 2 videos at same time makes 1 of them jerky and unwatchable.

See previous answer. This may likely be related to the audio issue as well.

4- Every game I have is jerkier and slower on Vista, sometimes not by much and sometimes by a lot. Sound is also popping like crazy.

Once again, this problem is likely related to 1-3...

My suggestions would be to try a different soundcard/ on-board sound solution. I do not run Vista, so I cannot help you besides that.

 

[jzodda]

Well I have had enough myself. After playing around with Vista 32bit for the past week or so I have lost patience. I am going back to WinXP Pro SP2 and Vista will collect dust till SP1 comes out for it.

Here is a summary of my experiences. First after installing the Abit Uguru utility for vista (little MB app for reading temps, voltage, OC, etc in windows) I lost all resolution beyond 1280x1024 on my 37inch Westy LCD. Remove Uguru and I am back at 1900x1200. I wanted Uguru but I could live without it as I OC in the bios and could get temps with other apps. Its not a promising start however when your first app install screws up your screen resolution. It wasn't the first app or driver I had problems with either.

With all Windows updates installed, latest intel chipset drivers for my QuadGT, latest Nvidia 8800 drivers for my GTX, and latest creative drivers for my Xi Fi sound card installed I start to try out games. I won't go into too much detail but I had a lot of problems with older games and serious sound issues. I will toss all that up to driver immaturity which is to be expected 3 months after the consumer releaes of this OS.

I am not going to bash Vista over drivers but I will bash Nvidia a little and creative A LOT. I tested about 15 games and had sound issues in 9 games and video card issues in 3. There are some things I didn't like about vista either. The biggest was no webmail support in their new email app, even for their own hotmail. Why they would do that is beyond me.

In any event I will wait for the first directX10 game I like is out and then give it another go. I am sure it will be good to go in a few months.

 

[zacdl]

I am going back to WinXP Pro SP2 and Vista will collect dust till SP1 comes out for it.

What on earth do you think SP1 will do?
Vista has been tested more than any other OS has. It isn't going to add features nor drivers. The only thing you will get for waiting for SP1 is giving nVidia, Creative, etc time to write Vista drivers.
SP1 won't bring much to the table. Vista is updated almost daily... And is pretty darn locked down secure as-is, so security won't be added as in XP. Already very stable, so it won't be added as in XP.
The whole "Wait for a SP" rule really no longer applies. As I said- the only thing waiting will do is allow other companies to play "catch up".

Here is a summary of my experiences. First after installing the Abit Uguru utility for vista (little MB app for reading temps, voltage, OC, etc in windows) I lost all resolution beyond 1280x1024 on my 37inch Westy LCD.

This isn't Vista's fault. Go complain to Uguru support and use a different utility.

I won't go into too much detail but I had a lot of problems with older games and serious sound issues. I will toss all that up to driver immaturity which is to be expected 3 months after the consumer releaes of this OS.

Your key there was "older games". Time to move on.
Did you try the compatibility mode? Check for patches?
I really don't think it would be a driver issue here (although it could be, considering nVidia and Creative's Vista driver records), if you are trying old games- they are simply not compatible.

There are some things I didn't like about vista either. The biggest was no webmail support in their new email app, even for their own hotmail. Why they would do that is beyond me.

What do you mean "webmail support"?
Webmail is webmail. You get it using a browser- it is not intended to be downloaded via POP3.

 

[jzodda]

What on earth do you think SP1 will do?
Vista has been tested more than any other OS has. It isn't going to add features nor drivers. The only thing you will get for waiting for SP1 is giving nVidia, Creative, etc time to write Vista drivers.

SP1 won't bring much to the table. Vista is updated almost daily... And is pretty darn locked down secure as-is, so security won't be added as in XP. Already very stable, so it won't be added as in XP.

The whole "Wait for a SP" rule really no longer applies. As I said- the only thing waiting will do is allow other companies to play "catch up".

Waiting for the other companies to play catch up is what I meant. Waiting for "SP1" is more of a figure of speech. It means waiting for everything to play nicer together and that takes time.

This isn't Vista's fault. Go complain to Uguru support and use a different utility.

I don't know where you read me blaming vista....

Your key there was "older games". Time to move on.
Did you try the compatibility mode? Check for patches?
I really don't think it would be a driver issue here (although it could be, considering nVidia and Creative's Vista driver records), if you are trying old games- they are simply not compatible.

Trust me from my time at Nvzone and Creative forums its driver related. Creative is working on an app that brings backs hardware support for older games but it still needs lots of work. As for moving on well thats why I have a 2nd system with a 21inch CRT running XP. So I won't really have to move on totally. First though I will try to get as much working with Vista when I put it back on for whatever old game I am still interested in.

What do you mean "webmail support"?
Webmail is webmail. You get it using a browser- it is not intended to be downloaded via POP3

In windows XP you could add hotmail to outlook express and run it from there. You could use it the same way you use the POP3 email. I could move emails from hotmail to verizon folders, basically use both emails from the same app which is outlook express. When I tried to add hotmail to accounts in the vista email I got a message saying this function has been removed. It was a nice feature that went back to at least windows 98SE, maybe longer then that and I will miss it. Thats what I mean

 

[general]

MS wouldn't have released this OS were it not for pressure from Wall Street. Balmer has already stated that the Vista fiasco/project will permanently change how OS's are developed at MS in the future. Load XP back onto your system and wait a year until all of this gets done. It's not like you'll lose ANYTHING by going back.

 

[calebb]

MS wouldn't have released this OS were it not for pressure from Wall Street. Balmer has already stated that the Vista fiasco/project will permanently change how OS's are developed at MS in the future. Load XP back onto your system and wait a year until all of this gets done. It's not like you'll lose ANYTHING by going back.

I'll admit there are some driver issues that need to be resolved, but Vista really is a revolutionary operating system.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, all these features really do make a difference once you get your driver issues sorted out. A recent poll here shows that over 75% of [H] users who tried Vista, converted to Vista full time!

 

[Diablo2K]

I think it is really easy to explain why Vista is having so many problems.
Its New!

I have been into computer sense I was a kid. My first computer was a Commadore Vic 20, First PC was an 8088, Back then they were Called IBM Clones. From there on is where my experience comes into play on this subject. .

People are so quick to forget how many differant PC configurations out there that makes it impossible for microsoft or the third party programmers to test every possible scenario. They think that because there syatem meets the requirements that they should never experience no problems.
Every single time an operating system has come out, or even a service pack for that matter there is a period of transitional problems. It takes time for the programmers to get error reports, then it takes more time to recreat the problem, then takes more time to actually figure out what exactly the problem is, then and only then can they start working on getting the problem fixed.
To Call Vista another ME is just plain ignorance. Microsoft has been working on Vista for a very long time. And considering its complexity I say they came out with a well polished product given the current state of PCs. i remember when XP came out, every discussion we are having here about how Vista is plagued with problems was discussed about XP, When 98 came out, Same thing, when 95 came out, the problems were huge, but every single one of these became a very stable, reliable and exciting OS, given a little time I think if we look back on what were discussing we will be saying the same thing. And when Vista replacement comes out, we will once again have a few stumbles with it also!

 

[JBavousett]

Just to let you know, I have an m1710 (in my siggy) and I upgraded to Vista Home Premium, the copy that Dell sold me. I re-installed XP MCE yesterday. Vista was just too slow.

 

[djnes]

Balmer has already stated that the Vista fiasco/project will permanently change how OS's are developed at MS in the future.

If it's the same quote I heard, to be fair, you should mention that you added the word fiasco. Vista's development and debut were hardly a fiasco. Blamer was referring to changing the process of a very important section in the management of a project. That section is Change Management. Microsoft learned a lot about change management in a project of this magnitude, and will be better suited down the road. There's nothing wrong with that, and it hardly states that it was a fiasco. Contrary to your opinion, Vista's been accepted more than even Microsoft had guessed at this point.

 

[masteraleph]

I'm starting to suspect that 95% of Vista problems would disappear if users:

a) Use ATI cards (aka nvidia driver problems)
b) Don't use Creative cards
c) If they do use Creative cards, don't use EAX.

 

[dark_reign]

I'm starting to suspect that 95% of Vista problems would disappear if users:

a) Use ATI cards (aka nvidia driver problems)
b) Don't use Creative cards
c) If they do use Creative cards, don't use EAX.

1. Latest WHQL 158.18 drivers are working fine for me. Earlier drivers had more bugs.

2. No problems here with my Audigy 2 ZS with the latest Vista beta drivers from Creative. Sound crackling MIGHT be a chipset issue and not related to the sound card or drivers. If using a NVIDIA or some other chipset you might want to make sure there isn't an issue with them on Vista.

3. EAX working fine in STALKER for me.

Clearly there are still drivers issues that need to be fixed, but telling people not to use NVIDIA and Creative cards isn't going to solve anything. I've seen people complaining about onboard audio not working properly as well. ATI's Vista drivers have issues as well.

 

[syntx]

Just to let you know, I have an m1710 (in my siggy) and I upgraded to Vista Home Premium, the copy that Dell sold me. I re-installed XP MCE yesterday. Vista was just too slow.

You know what? I reinstalled Windows XP x64 and I have 0 issues and holyf... everything is like much faster. I've had Vista for so long I never realized how slow it was compared to XP.

And please don't tell me it's because of my hardware. Look at my sig I have more than enough to run 4 OS at the same time.

 

[JBavousett]

Yeah, I'm so pissed that Dell still hasn't gotten working video drivers. The only drivers they have for the go7900gs are the first generation drivers that have almost no 3D support. nVidia doesn't even have Vista drivers available for that chipset yet.

 

[syntx]

Yeah, I'm so pissed that Dell still hasn't gotten working video drivers. The only drivers they have for the go7900gs are the first generation drivers that have almost no 3D support. nVidia doesn't even have Vista drivers available for that chipset yet.

Maybe you could use http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/
they modify the inf file of nvidia drivers so you can install them on notebook (go).

 

[dark_reign]

And please don't tell me it's because of my hardware. Look at my sig I have more than enough to run 4 OS at the same time.

But the issue lies with the hardware not having good driver support under Vista. The same thing happened when XP came out. There were many issues and the blame lay on the hardware companines, not Microsoft.

Windows ME was an abomination and should have never been released. In that case, Microsoft was to blame. Vista isn't perfect, but it's nothing like ME was.

 

[dot_Zen]

But the issue lies with the hardware not having good driver support under Vista.

I wanted to touch on a few things, but figured I'd start with this quote first; since it applies to nearly all hardware related to Vista.

Many have said Vista is just an XP update, or that Vista should have just been a newer Service pack to XP; regardless, there'd still be quite a few "moaners", happens every time things change.. Simply put, that is not the case.

Vista has changed the way in which driver development and engineering will be done for the better part of the industry. Many legacy parts, oddly enough, have no need to worry. But developers that were relying on the architecture for XP to get them by will simply not be able to continue to do so -- as stated by Creative in their FAQ:

By: Catherina-CL 09-19-2006

In general, issues relating to Creative audio products may be divided into one of four categories:

1.The Windows Vista audio engine runs faster than the Windows XP audio engine did, and Vista has tighter requirements on audio buffer position accuracy than XP did. This exposed low level driver bugs that we had not been seen before.

Issues that may be encountered:
Audio dropouts, distortions that only happen once in a while, constant distortions, or audio/video synchronization drift that only happens after several hours of watching movies.
Status:
We are working daily to address issues in this category, and we have recently published “beta” drivers for Vista for some of our products that address these. Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you find our latest beta drivers continue to exhibit symptoms such as those described


2.The Vista audio architecture changes the way per-stream audio processing works, which required us to write new software to support this

Issues that may be encountered:
CMSS no longer works on audio streams from the OS.
Status:
Features based on Windows XP architecture must be rewritten to conform to the new Vista architecture, and we have a team of software engineers, project managers and testers dedicated to this task in order to provide our customers the same seamless audio experience under Windows Vista that they enjoyed under Windows XP.


3.The Vista audio architecture disables DirectSound 3D hardware acceleration; resulting in legacy DirectSound based EAX game titles not working as they did in XP.

Issues that may be encountered:
Could range from loss of EAX functionality in EAX enabled games to a complete game incompatibility, depending on how the game title was authored. This would only happen with games that render 3D audio using DirectSound, it should not affect games that render 3D audio using OpenAL.

(Note: There is a known bug due to a change to Vista which confuses an OpenAL component. A proper fix in progress, but a workaround is to copy c:\windows\system32\ct_oal.dll into the doom3 folder and rename it to OpenAL32.dll)​

Status:
These issues cannot be addressed by the Creative audio driver, because the functionality was purposely removed by the operating system. We look forward to game titles moving away from DirectSound and toward OpenAL for fully optimized Creative 3D audio hardware and technology support.


4.Bugs in Vista.

Issues that may be encountered:
Vista itself is still in the final stages of testing, and is not yet at code-freeze. Also, the user mode audio stack is nearly 100% brand new software. As a result, there are indeed issues whose root cause is in the operating system.
Status:
We are working closely with Microsoft to alert them of any and all issues like this, and we have found them to be cooperative with us in bringing them to resolution.

For more info related to thenewer architecture model for Windows sound stacks refer to:

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=Vista&message.id=1694


It'd be nice if the video card manuf. pulled their head out of each other's ass, stopped trying to win the '6 month-Crown' and relayed this sort of information to the public, but I guess that would be asking too much.

 

[msny]

To the OP...

I think the answer you seek is going to come over time with better drivers and a SP1.
Sorry, not the answer your looking for specifically. I have not had any of your issues, except to say I had a fiasco when trying to install an older Creative ZEN xTra MP3 player which I finally got to work. Turns out it needed a firmware update, not Vista;s fault but Creative's for making that bit of news as obscure as possible.

Both superfetch and media player(center) need some work I think. As to the other issues it's up to manufactures to supply updated drivers. Creative has not been on the cutting edge for this. HP has decided NOT to even issue Vista drivers for some recent printers and
nVidia seems to like beta drivers for like forever.

So I think it's an issue of being patient even if it's somewhat frustrating right now.
Good luck

 

[dark_reign]

It'd be nice if the video card manuf. pulled their head out of each other's ass, stopped trying to win the '6 month-Crown' and relayed this sort of information to the public, but I guess that would be asking too much.

I agree, and thanks for the info on Creative. They aren't entirely at fault.