Vista is infested with drm

[IanG]

It is absolutely our right to make back-up copies. Whether consumers exercised that right in the past or not is irrelevent, we have the right and we can do it. It's just media companies aren't required to provide us a convenient means of exercising that right.

And having to upgrade your PC when DVDs first came out is not the same thing that is happening now. The issue then was hard technical limitations on some of the older hardware that existed at the time, it had nothing to do with DRM. What they are apparently attempting to do now is force you to upgrade perfectly capable hardware because they are concerned about piracy, it's a completely different issue.

And the only thing you needed to play DVDs was the drive and perhaps a graphics card with hardware decoding. You did not need to replace your monitor. The MPAA was not forcing DVDs to run at quarter resolution on older monitors, in fact they werent implementing any cheeseball controls at all save for CSS.

If someone told me "look, your computer simply doesnt have the horsepower to play HD DVDs and you're going to have to upgrade" I wouldn't have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is someone telling me "look, some people have pirated stuff from us in the past, so we want YOU to throw out your existing monitor and graphics card, and HDTV for that matter, and we want YOU to pay for all new equipment, just to help us out a little" To me it's total BS, piracy is their problem not mine, why do I have to pay for it?

What if the DMV told you they had implemented some new safety standards for cars, and yours didn't meet them. So you were gonna have to buy a new car if you wanted to be compliant. Then if you throw a shitfit they just looked you calmly in the eye and said "hey, driving is a privelage, not a right, if you don't like it just don't drive on the road, simple".

I was refering to the comments about the UK, where it is not legal to create backups of movies (or CDs eiter, only computer software.) This page should explain it. The US is a different case, and one I did't try to address.

Your DMV analogy is irrelevant to the discussion. This isn't a government mandated thing - watching movies is certainly not a right and if you don't want to buy HD movies you can stick with regular DVDs, or TV, or just not watch them at all. Again, the content belongs to the studios, and they can sell it to you on whatever terms they want.

The initial roll-out of DVDs is analogous. If you wanted to watch a DVD back then, you had to buy hardware that would allow you to do so. If you only had a 640x480 monitor, you would have to upgrade to get the full resolution picture. If your video card couldn't handle mpeg decoding, you would have to upgrade it. Exactly the same thing here - if your system doesn't meet the requirements, it's time to upgrade. Just because those requirements are being set by the content providers doesn't make it any different. Why didn't they make dvds MPEG-1 at a lower resolution so that PC users could watch them?

Again, if you don't like the rules that the providers are imposing on the new formats, it's your choice to opt-out and not take part it in. Don't sit around whining in forums about it. You'll still be able to enjoy DVDs for the next 3 or 4 years (and likely longer) until they are phased out like VHS. I'm pretty sure by that time you'll have a system that can handle HDCP.

 

[ElBarto79]

They're not obsoleting cards if people don't want that functionality. I'm happy playing games on my PC, my card isn't going to be obsolete. Neither will any card in a PC that isn't upgraded to Vista - it'll continue to perform it's function just like it does now. You're not forced into getting a new video card to run Vista, you're being forced to get a new card if you want to add a HD/BD-Rom drive to your computer to watch a movie. That isn't Microsoft's doing, that's the groups behind HDDVD and BD.

You also won't be forced to upgrade every box in your advertising company - you'll continue to work on the raw, drm-free HD video files like you do now. This will only affect copywritten, studio-produced pressed discs which explicity require it. If they can't provide you that, you'll probably tell them to politely go screw themselves. As a fallback, you'll just make your staff view it at SD resolution.

People seem to think it will apply to any HD content, but it won't. My buddy has a HD video camera and he's going to be able to use it just like he does now in editing HD content. You'll also be able to watch High-Def transport stream files from OT broadcasts just fine.

Oh I just saw this one. Movie studios are not going to be sending out unencrypted HD copies of their new releases, period. The instant there are unencrypted copies floating around willy nilly is the instant they end up on the internet. The most any outside studio could probably hope to get is unencrypted snippets of specific sections of a film, that would allow them to put together whatever it is they're working on, and even that would be strictly controlled. Not only that but there are plenty of companies that would never need unencrypted content to begin with and will never be sent anything except final, encrypted releases. My ex's dad was an engineer at a dvd duplication factory, his desk was littered with dvd's and they were all CSS, final versions. Movie reviewers, university film programs, any type of advertising agency, media company, broadcasters, etc. etc. And a lot of those places are just small operations that would be hit hard if they were forced into expensive upgrades.

 

[FSCDiablo]

It's very simple. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you really want to "stick it to the man" don't buy thier encrypted hardware, software, or content and encourage everyone you can reach to do the same. This whole game is about money and you are the one holding it. You are in charge.

 

[ElBarto79]

I was refering to the comments about the UK, where it is not legal to create backups of movies (or CDs eiter, only computer software.) This page should explain it. The US is a different case, and one I did't try to address.

Your DMV analogy is irrelevant to the discussion. This isn't a government mandated thing - watching movies is certainly not a right and if you don't want to buy HD movies you can stick with regular DVDs, or TV, or just not watch them at all. Again, the content belongs to the studios, and they can sell it to you on whatever terms they want.

The initial roll-out of DVDs is analogous. If you wanted to watch a DVD back then, you had to buy hardware that would allow you to do so. If you only had a 640x480 monitor, you would have to upgrade to get the full resolution picture. If your video card couldn't handle mpeg decoding, you would have to upgrade it. Exactly the same thing here - if your system doesn't meet the requirements, it's time to upgrade. Just because those requirements are being set by the content providers doesn't make it any different. Why didn't they make dvds MPEG-1 at a lower resolution so that PC users could watch them?

Again, if you don't like the rules that the providers are imposing on the new formats, it's your choice to opt-out and not take part it in. Don't sit around whining in forums about it. You'll still be able to enjoy DVDs for the next 3 or 4 years (and likely longer) until they are phased out like VHS. I'm pretty sure by that time you'll have a system that can handle HDCP.

The DMV thing is completely analagous, it's an artificial obsolesence, not a quantitative one.

The DVD rollout is not analogous. If you had a high end 2 thousand dollar monitor back then you could watch DVDs on it at full resolution, no problem. I could buy a high end 2 thousand dollar monitor NOW, and I would have to replace it in 6 months if I wanted to watch high def content on it. That's BS. One was hardware, one was DRM, not the same thing at all, sorry.

I have no problem with a real hardware obsolesence with clear performance advantages to upgrading. I have a problem with artificial obsolesence. I don't want to pay 2 thousand bucks for new hardware because some other people have pirated movies. That's not my deal, that's something between the MPAA and the pirates, not me. Why should I have to pay the equivalent worth of 100 pirated movies (2 grand), because other people have pirated movies. That's insane. Like I said never before in the past has anything on this scale occurred. If it has tell me about because I can't think of anything like it.

And I will whine about it all I want. I have every right to bitch at them if I feel like it. If you want to call me a whiner that's fine. I don't really care, you're a pawn of the MPAA because you have no problem forking it over because of some piracy issues they're having.

 

[IanG]

The DMV thing is completely analagous, it's an artificial obsolesence, not a quantitative one.

The DVD rollout is not analogous. If you had a high end 2 thousand dollar monitor back then you could watch DVDs on it at full resolution, no problem. I could buy a high end 2 thousand dollar monitor NOW, and I would have to replace it in 6 months if I wanted to watch high def content on it. That's BS. One was hardware, one was DRM, not the same thing at all, sorry.

I have no problem with a real hardware obsolesence with clear performance advantages to upgrading. I have a problem with artificial obsolesence. I don't want to pay 2 thousand bucks for new hardware because some other people have pirated movies. That's not my deal, that's something between the MPAA and the pirates, not me. Why should I have to pay the equivalent worth of 100 pirated movies (2 grand), because other people have pirated movies. That's insane. Like I said never before in the past has anything on this scale occurred. If it has tell me about because I can't think of anything like it.

And I will whine about it all I want. I have every right to bitch at them if I feel like it. If you want to call me a whiner that's fine. I don't really care, you're a pawn of the MPAA because you have no problem forking it over because of some piracy issues they're having.

There's nobody forcing you to make the jump to HD. I'm telling you to hold off making the jump, so how the hell am I a pawn of the MPAA? If you don't want to play ball by the studios rules, don't do it - I know I won't be - just don't get all moralistic that it's your natural born right to have HD content on your terms. You don't, welcome to America, learn to deal with it.

You asked for an equivalent shift, and I'll go back to the initial introduction of DVDs. Studios could have supported the VCD standard, which was already popular in asia. I'd have been able to watch films using my existing CD-ROM drive on a pentium II, but instead *gasp* I had to buy a new drive and a new hardware card if I wanted to take advantage of the new format. What was the reason for DVDs? CSS and encryption. It's not like my PC stopped working overnight though.

To go back to your DMV analogy - nobody's is going to be forced to scap their PC, which your analogy was. All the PCs in the world will continue working exactly the same as they do today, doing all of the same things. You're complaining that stuff you buy today should support the standards of tomorrow. The equivalent car analogy would be like buying a '06 car today knowing that there's an 07 model coming out in a few months.Are you going to complain that you don't get the new handling or body style? What if they use different wheel fittings and you can't reuse your fancy rims on the new one?

You're actually one of the lucky ones. You know that stuff you buy today won't work with the new standards next year. You can make an informed decision - I'd suggest you either stick with regular DVDs, or get an OTA HD Tuner card so you can grab HD movies from ABC, Fox etc.

PS If you dropped 2 grand on a monitor today (Dell 3007) you'll be all set.

 

[maxius]

this thread has really turned out better than i expected anyways back to the topic at hand these drm functions should not be present in the basic os software. granted the mpaa is shoveing this crap down m$'s throat, but does m$ have to play ball with them no they dont casue i dont think we would be too effected if we couldnt play drm infested hd content on our pc's. ok soo what you cant play the next dvd format woooooopie i see it as a loss of a market for the movie industry and the reason fro this for going nus with drm and trying to kill our fair use rights threw the drm

 

[BobSutan]

Here's a surefire way to piss people off at the folks behind this scheme....

Tell everyone you know that bought TVs recently that they just got screwed. Politely explain to them that DVDs are about to be phased out like VHS effectively has been and the new format won't work on their TV properly (by downgrading the resolution). So even if they spend a ton of cash for the HD/BR DVD player (and media), they won't look any better than DVDs already out.

That should put a pretty good freeze on HD/BR DVD sales, and if enough people complain it could generate the backlash-level needed to get HDCP 86'd before it takes off in the retail sector--if people don't buy HDCP-enable products then there won't be much need for it then, eh?

 

[eeyrjmr]

But we're not talking about music, programs and games, we're discussing movies which I don't think are covered under UK 'backup' law. Even if it is, circumventing encryptions is still illegal until the courts hopefully decide otherwise.
It's their content, and they can unfortunately charge you for whatever they want to allow you to do with it. Hopefully the public will them them to go screw themselves and we'll be able to have a little bit more flexibility (like happened with Divx.)

It's kind of strange to compare this situation to the birth of original DVDs. There was no talk about being able to 'back them up' until css was cracked. Without that we'd be in the same situation as we're facing now. Even with VHS, consumers never really cared about making backups, and in most cases macrovision was enough to prevent most casual copying. Suddenly though, it's our natural born right to create backups.

While we're discussing original DVDs, when they were released (1997) almost every existing PC required a hardware decoder to be able to play them, and maybe even a 16-bit colour, 800x600 video card and monitor. People weren't all worked up about it though, claiming that DVDs were making their PC suddenly obsolete. They figured that if they wanted to watch dvds on their PC they'd have to plunk down cash on some upgrades. I don't really see anything different between the impending arrival of HDDVD/BluRay.

Except CSS has been cracked in Europe for th epurpose of baking up DVD's
You ever heard about "DVD Jon", well he got taken to court by some movie studio for cracking CSS encription of DVD's, he argued that he did it so he could back up is collection (the collection he bought and owned) and to play DVD's on Linux since support from vendors did not exist


He won. Thus there is a case in europe where CSS HAS been cracked. IF I got taken to court in the UK for playing DVD's on Linux I can cite that case, I might lose the case in the UK, I would just escilate it to the European courts (something that is my right to do). In doing so I can cite that case and my case would be thoruwn out, as a result it would kick start a law-change in the UK since a case got overturned in the European courts.


The same will be true for HD, it will be cracked, and the case will be back-cited to the DVD-jon case.


I have a right to back up what I have bought!

 

[pigwalk]

this thread has really turned out better than i expected anyways back to the topic at hand these drm functions should not be present in the basic os software. granted the mpaa is shoveing this crap down m$'s throat, but does m$ have to play ball with them no they dont casue i dont think we would be too effected if we couldnt play drm infested hd content on our pc's. ok soo what you cant play the next dvd format woooooopie i see it as a loss of a market for the movie industry and the reason fro this for going nus with drm and trying to kill our fair use rights threw the drm

Just wondering, I'm sure there were similar debates around when XP and WPA came out. But eventually WPA was cracked. Luckily for me, a valid Windows CD Key works fine on a WPA-less cracked version of windows. Will I be able to do the same when Vista comes out? I hope so!

-wil

 

[maxius]

Just wondering, I'm sure there were similar debates around when XP and WPA came out. But eventually WPA was cracked. Luckily for me, a valid Windows CD Key works fine on a WPA-less cracked version of windows. Will I be able to do the same when Vista comes out? I hope so!

-wil

the drm that is at issue is the nextgen hd formats for audio and video that could be extended into every peice of software on the pc and that would really destroy our fair use rights ... that is the big issue here not vista and product activation or getting updates ..... stay on topic please

 

[pigwalk]

the drm that is at issue is the nextgen hd formats for audio and video that could be extended into every peice of software on the pc and that would really destroy our fair use rights ... that is the big issue here not vista and product activation or getting updates ..... stay on topic please

Won't DRM free or DRM cracked versions of Vista appear eventually? Then we can just drop in our legally acquired serials, and voila, we get Vista, no DRM and everyone at MS still gets paid. Everyone's happy.

Or are there roadblocks to that?

-wil

 

[ElBarto79]

Won't DRM free or DRM cracked versions of Vista appear eventually? Then we can just drop in our legally acquired serials, and voila, we get Vista, no DRM and everyone at MS still gets paid. Everyone's happy.

Or are there roadblocks to that?

-wil

While the DRM is a pain it's to be expected. What people are really bitching about is that this new DRM, HDCP, is currently not available on any video cards, and there are only a handful of monitors that support it. So even if you have a brand new high-end gaming rig it will be unable to play HD discs at full resolution without expensive upgrades. If HDCP was built-in to hardware for the past year of so, of if you could buy a 20 dollar converter box, I don't think people would be bitching like they are. It's the prospect of an expensive upgrade purely to help out the content providers. Like if the cable company called you and said they were going to downgrade the signal to your HDTV unless you bought a new one that supported their new encryption. That's basically what's happening here. And actually a lot of older HDTVs do not support HDCP so they will not be able to play the new discs at full resolution. It's really vile. But if the source get's cracked then presumabely it will be irrelevant, we'll see.

 

[BobSutan]

I've been thinking about all this for a while now and I think I missed something. Besides having to upgrade to HDCP compliant gear, what's the drawback (besides teh DRM)? Are the disks going to prevent backups like DVDs were said to (before CSS was cracked)? Is that all we're really talking about?

 

[ElBarto79]

I've been thinking about all this for a while now and I think I missed something. Besides having to upgrade to HDCP compliant gear, what's the drawback (besides teh DRM)? Are the disks going to prevent backups like DVDs were said to (before CSS was cracked)? Is that all we're really talking about?

I think the primary drawbacks would be the DRM, and of course the increased cost of media and hardware, at least initially. But the DRM is fairly complex, at least compared to what's in DVD, and I still don't fully understand how it will all work. Looking at both formats it includes, among other things; digital watermarking, audio watermarks to prevent copying with a camcorder, key revocation ability, dynamically changing encryption schemes and of course encrypted interfaces (HDCP).

As far as backups go both formats are supposed to support some form of "managed copy", which is a DRM based form of copy control. So for example it may allow you to make one backup copy and that's it, or it might let you rip the disc to an encrypted format on your PC so that it would only play on your PC. The exact details are still unclear, and just because the ability to allow copying of the discs exists does not mean that studios will ever enable that feature, or they may only allow it for certain releases. We'll just have to wait and see. HD DVD is supposed to be released this month so hopefully we'll learn more soon.

 

[Phoenix86]

this thread has really turned out better than i expected anyways back to the topic at hand these drm functions should not be present in the basic os software. granted the mpaa is shoveing this crap down m$'s throat, but does m$ have to play ball with them no they dont casue i dont think we would be too effected if we couldnt play drm infested hd content on our pc's. ok soo what you cant play the next dvd format woooooopie i see it as a loss of a market for the movie industry and the reason fro this for going nus with drm and trying to kill our fair use rights threw the drm

I'd say MS' hands are kinda tied here.

Currently their options are:
Support DRM so their customers are able to play the content.
Do not support DRM and their customers are upset at the lack of support.

I mean really, would you buy an OS that didn't play DVDs?

Are the disks going to prevent backups like DVDs were said to (before CSS was cracked)?

Yes. It's my belief that you will have to pay for each copy of the backup. Why? Just 'cause.

The real question is why don't they show the consumers how they can legally create backups? Heck I'd settle for a digital warehouse I can re-download a copy if my original gets scratched. It'd make the encyrption of the data a but easier to swallow. But no, they come out with only a way to protect the content, nothing to protect the consumer.