Vista Is Hitting Its Stride

[mdburkey]

You are aware that those academic institutions do pay a licensing fee for that, right? Much the same way that large corporations pay for a VLK license. Are you trying to say Microsoft shouldn't count those, either?

I agree that Microsoft should count academic sales as sales -- just as VLK's most definitely count as sales (though the large number of VLK's that are distibuted through people like CharityAdvantage should probalby be counted differently -- i.e. $6 for an XP Pro License/Vista Business license/etc. doesn't exactly do much for Microsoft's bottom line).

The issue on a lot of both the academic and corporate sales of Vista Business is that copies sold do not necessarily indicate the actual rate of adoption -- i.e. every company I deal with is now purchasing Windows Vista Business exclusively -- yet every one them has also exercised their downgrade rights and re-imaged XP Pro back onto these units.

 

[DOpamine]

The only reason this thread exists is because microslop cannot get a release right , then you get all the b$ "it performs better" , "dx10 is more efficient" , "built on xp technology" yeh right , the only people who believe this are the people who watch the propaganda on install ( time and time again ) . Please nobody mention Linux - only open sourced and/or FREE platforms of which there are many. At least with those platforms you have the opportunity to recompile , downgrade or simple plain ignore the aspects you wish and not wait for some corporate entity to wipe your anus for you.

To all those who say "Linux isnt ready for the prime time" ect , A: Linux is a kernel , nothing more nothing less. B: Many open sourced platforms are ready for the "prime time" its the users that arent because of "terminalaphobia" , "i dont know how" and not forgetting the "i just spent $85 on this vista dvd" , Seriously getting a m$ user to try an open sourced platform is akin to releasing a battery hen into the wild - they get so far , discover they cant fly then stick their ass in the air and complain when someone doesnt shove an electrode up it.

Top and bottom of it is ... microsoft are just crap as is their entire development model , as soon as people start complaining with their feet nothing will change and judging from the comments on this thread we are a long way from that. Why you might ask - simple, its all these people know and i really do feel sorry for them as i do battery hens.

 

[mdburkey]

The only reason this thread exists is because microslop cannot get a release right , then you get all the b$ "it performs better" , "dx10 is more efficient" , "built on xp technology" yeh right , the only people who believe this are the people who watch the propaganda on install ( time and time again ) . Please nobody mention Linux - only open sourced and/or FREE platforms of which there are many. At least with those platforms you have the opportunity to recompile , downgrade or simple plain ignore the aspects you wish and not wait for some corporate entity to wipe your anus for you.

To all those who say "Linux isnt ready for the prime time" ect , A: Linux is a kernel , nothing more nothing less. B: Many open sourced platforms are ready for the "prime time" its the users that arent because of "terminalaphobia" , "i dont know how" and not forgetting the "i just spent $85 on this vista dvd" , Seriously getting a m$ user to try an open sourced platform is akin to releasing a battery hen into the wild - they get so far , discover they cant fly then stick their ass in the air and complain when someone doesnt shove an electrode up it..

I use Linux daily as part of my job -- I also use Windows.

For the average user, there is still not a Linux distribution that is serves the purpose. For an engineer or technically competent individual, sure, Linux is great. The Linux kernel and the basic OS architecture has been robust and stable for basically 15 years.

For simple use, web browsing, word processing, etc. a mainstream Linux distrib like Ubuntu works fine -- but it is still not something I would set down in front of my parents or the secretarial staff. Printer driver support is still lacking in Linux as is software support. Until you can go out and pickup a copy of TurboTax for Linux or go by any cheap inkjet printer and have drivers for Linux supplied on the CD, it will NOT take over as the dominant OS.

Mac at least has a chance of becoming a true second choice -- although I am personally not fond of the Mac UI (I find it much less efficient for multitasking personally and annoying and "cutesy" in other ways as well). That said, once you get below the Apple UI on the top level, Mac OS has a good solid Unix derived core underneath.

Personally, although it would have been a mammoth undertaking, Microsoft probably would have been better off to chuck the entire Windows kernel design and start over with a good Unix derived core and implement a "Wine-like" translation layer to allow existing applications to work. They could even have virtualized the entire processor on a per app basis if need be. An emulation/translation layer is what Apple has done repeatedly throughout their major OS upgrades and hardware platform changes -- and done well. Unfortunately, although Microsoft always seems to try copying things from Apple, it seems as if they always copy Apple's least redeeming qualities rather than their good points.

 

[DOpamine]

I use Linux daily as part of my job -- I also use Windows.

For the average user, there is still not a Linux distribution that is serves the purpose. For an engineer or technically competent individual, sure, Linux is great. The Linux kernel and the basic OS architecture has been robust and stable for basically 15 years.

who is this average user ? , i consider myself an average user and its more than fine for me

For simple use, web browsing, word processing, etc. a mainstream Linux distrib like Ubuntu works fine -- but it is still not something I would set down in front of my parents or the secretarial staff. Printer driver support is still lacking in Linux as is software support. Until you can go out and pickup a copy of TurboTax for Linux or go by any cheap inkjet printer and have drivers for Linux supplied on the CD, it will NOT take over as the dominant OS.

My 11 year old brother uses gentoo , my sister sister uses kubuntu , my mother debian. I have failed to find a printer that does not work with CUPS and you can always use those pesky windoze only apps in wine , heck you can even run windows in a window if you've got the ram for such a hungry thing as windows. I play games with my 11 year old brother and not old ports of some game that was released on windows 5+ years ago, i have advanced image manipulation , 3d rendering , file sharing, palmos tools , mobile phone tools , bluetooth tools , video transcoding tools, dvd authoring tools , the best music collection manager and player available , desktop TV , a full office suite , the list goes on.. infact i want for nothing other than certain games. It will NOT take over as the dominant OS yet because of the battery hen syndrome ( see above ).

Mac at least has a chance of becoming a true second choice -- although I am personally not fond of the Mac UI (I find it much less efficient for multitasking personally and annoying and "cutesy" in other ways as well). That said, once you get below the Apple UI on the top level, Mac OS has a good solid Unix derived core underneath.

Trouble with Mac os is that its an entire package , you buy expensive hardware that it comes with and if your having trouble setting that cheap ink jet printer up in a GNU/Linux distribuition then you'll have the exact same trouble in Mac os as it also uses CUPS ( Common Unix Printing System ). I know it can be hacked to run on a "normal" machine but thats hacking , they may well release it for all types of hardware in the future and i hope they do but for now its just a rich kids OS ( i agree with you about its UI , its disgusting ).

Personally, although it would have been a mammoth undertaking, Microsoft probably would have been better off to chuck the entire Windows kernel design and start over with a good Unix derived core and implement a "Wine-like" translation layer to allow existing applications to work. They could even have virtualized the entire processor on a per app basis if need be. An emulation/translation layer is what Apple has done repeatedly throughout their major OS upgrades and hardware platform changes -- and done well. Unfortunately, although Microsoft always seems to try copying things from Apple, it seems as if they always copy Apple's least redeeming qualities rather than their good points.

we'd get somewhere then , things could be cross platform quite easily like CUPS is for instance and thats probably why it'll never happen

 

[Martyr]

the average computer user never opens the control panel





think about them using linux.

 

[mdburkey]

who is this average user ? , i consider myself an average user and its more than fine for me

My 11 year old brother uses gentoo , my sister sister uses kubuntu , my mother debian. I have failed to find a printer that does not work with CUPS and you can always use those pesky windoze only apps in wine , heck you can even run windows in a window if you've got the ram for such a hungry thing as windows. I play games with my 11 year old brother and not old ports of some game that was released on windows 5+ years ago, i have advanced image manipulation , 3d rendering , file sharing, palmos tools , mobile phone tools , bluetooth tools , video transcoding tools, dvd authoring tools , the best music collection manager and player available , desktop TV , a full office suite , the list goes on.. infact i want for nothing other than certain games. It will NOT take over as the dominant OS yet because of the battery hen syndrome ( see above ).

Just based on the fact that you are on this forum, you are NOT an average user.
The fact that you even know what CUPS and Wine are only further establishes this!

For the average user, having to ever open something like Device Manager under Windows or configuring ANYTHING in Linux is far beyond them. If they have to setup things to work with Wine, then they are completely off the charts.

Unless they can go pickup a copy of something like QuickBooks or TurboTax off the shelf, put it in the CD drive, have it automatically installed -- with lots of very simple "press next" prompts along the way -- then the "average" user will be totally clueless. The average user -- at least in a business environment -- is 35-45 years old or older and never used computers until after high school (except possibly an old Apple II for a computer class). Even a lot of current teens I deal with have very little clue as to how to setup anything on their PC in terms of networking, installing software, or configuring anything. MySpace they can do -- ask them to install a printer driver or change their wireless config and their eyes totally glaze over.

I still have lots of people I deal with who still don't know what a "browser" is or that they can get to their e-mail any way except clicking on "Internet" and then hitting the e-mail link for the webmail on their ISP. Most of them don't even understand that they can change their start page away from Comcast/BellSouth/etc.

 

[DOpamine]

Just based on the fact that you are on this forum, you are NOT an average user.
The fact that you even know what CUPS and Wine are only further establishes this!

:$ aww shucks thank you

really all computer oses have to be learned even windoze , if the people who are struggling to know what a browser is maybe they should go on a training course or stop using computers all together ... they'll only get shouted at when they click the pr0n link which infects them anyway ... something that wouldnt happen on a *nix setup i might add

 

[firebane]

You can base the Windows vs Linux debate on a simple analogy of learning to ride a bike.

When your a kid and your starting to ride a bike you have no idea how and its up to your mom or dad to show you how to ride it and properly use the basic functions of the bike.

Now with Windows your parents have never taken off the training wheels and still hold onto the seat of the bike and will always teach you how to do things.

With linux the difference is your parents have let go of the bike and taken off the training wheels and its now up to you to figure out how to keep going and keep the bike operational without falling off.

People want a safety net, something to fall back on and feel safe in our society and running Windows allows them that because if their computer screws up theres more people out there who know how to fix a broken Windows OS than there are people who can fix a broken linux OS.

So people stick to what they feel safe and their safety net and stay with Windows and those brave enough to take off the training wheels explore and find linux and learn it and understand it and realize "hey you know its not really that hard after all!"

 

[Monkey God]

You can base the Windows vs Linux debate on a simple analogy of learning to ride a bike

...

So people stick to what they feel safe and their safety net and stay with Windows and those brave enough to take off the training wheels explore and find linux and learn it and understand it and realize "hey you know its not really that hard after all!"

Im an IT professional and I can't stand using Linux at home, because of driver issues, other hardware issues, and lack of mainstream software support.

Windows isn't a safety net, but I dont really want to spend a weekend trying to get some neato spiffy linux distro working only to find out I can't use it to do either work related windows tasks, and I can't do recreational tasks like games.

As someone said, until you can slap a copy of Turbo Tax on it, or the latest game, Linux will never be the first choice for ordinary users. Theres nothing wrong with it, its a great OS and even though we a primarily a windows shop, we do have quite a few *nix boxes for very specific tasks that work well.

 

[mdburkey]

You can base the Windows vs Linux debate on a simple analogy of learning to ride a bike.

When your a kid and your starting to ride a bike you have no idea how and its up to your mom or dad to show you how to ride it and properly use the basic functions of the bike.

Now with Windows your parents have never taken off the training wheels and still hold onto the seat of the bike and will always teach you how to do things.

With linux the difference is your parents have let go of the bike and taken off the training wheels and its now up to you to figure out how to keep going and keep the bike operational without falling off.

The problem is, with computers, the kids generally know more than the parents!

For most users, Linux is more like the training wheels of their bicycle and then telling them to go play on the Interstate!

----------------------------
Vista gripe #3001....

I just ran into yet another DRM/PMP related annoyance with Vista this morning.
At an office I support, they had a recorded video clip from a conference room that they needed to watch to write down some of the notes off the white board, but we ran into an interesting problem (thankfully, this is about the only Vista machine in the place, which was installed against my advice anyway). The clip was recorded off their in-house system to a PC running Media Center and stored in DVR-MS format. The problem is, with very few exceptions, none of the desktop machines in the place have speakers on them (which is pretty common at a lot of offices). Even though there is a sound card in the machine, the drivers detect that no speakers are connected and Media Player utterly refuses to play the clip because it can't find a proper audio output path! Once I plugged in the headphones from my MP3 player, everything worked nicely -- but otherwise, no dice!
With XP -- no problem. With an AVI/MPG/etc. file -- no problem (even with Vista). With DVR-MS -- problem.

As time goes by I am becoming more & more convinced that Vista might actually have been a decent OS if Microsoft hadn't setup the entire, insane DRM infestation within it. I am also almost certain that about 90% of it's weird behavior and crashes can probably be traced to something caused by the PMP.

 

[DOpamine]

Please Please Please

As i have stated before - Linux is a kernel - it is not an operating system , there are distributions such as debian GNU/Linux for example but there is also debian GNU/Hurd

anyway , i play games and all my hardware works apart from this £9.99 digital camera , heck i've even got hardware that works a sight better in here than in any other os - my scsi negative scanner , in windows i've had it working but very poorly in gentoo GNU/Linux worked without issue ... great

now if you would excuse me i'm going to save the world on quake wars right after i've synced my pda .... ta ta

 

[eeyrjmr]

You can base the Windows vs Linux debate on a simple analogy of learning to ride a bike.

When your a kid and your starting to ride a bike you have no idea how and its up to your mom or dad to show you how to ride it and properly use the basic functions of the bike.

Now with Windows your parents have never taken off the training wheels and still hold onto the seat of the bike and will always teach you how to do things.

With linux the difference is your parents have let go of the bike and taken off the training wheels and its now up to you to figure out how to keep going and keep the bike operational without falling off.

People want a safety net, something to fall back on and feel safe in our society and running Windows allows them that because if their computer screws up theres more people out there who know how to fix a broken Windows OS than there are people who can fix a broken linux OS.

So people stick to what they feel safe and their safety net and stay with Windows and those brave enough to take off the training wheels explore and find linux and learn it and understand it and realize "hey you know its not really that hard after all!"

Broken analogy.
Kid never used a PC before being taught by parents both Windows,Linux,OSX,... are going to feel alien. As long as the parents know their way around any of those OS's then the parents are also capable of taking off the perverbial training wheels

IF the parents don't know jack abt Windows,Linux,OSX, how the hell would they be able todo jack to help their kid hey THAT just stupid

Linux isn't hard, Linux is just different. In many ways it is alot easier to use then windows, in many ways it is harder. The thing is those that give linux half a chance find that those things that are a bit harder are minor compared to those annoyances that get left behind

hardware compatability!!!! ha!
ease of Support!!!! ha!

I grew up on amiga's and I knew them inside out. I wasn't exposed to windows until Win95/98 at uni machines and boy did I hate those crashy/corrupting POS that some asshat had the insult to call an "OperatingSystem" I mean they even had the gaul to say Win95 was a Multi-tasking OS, just go format a floppy and try doing something else... Oh yer, its one or the other.

I shall be raising my boy on Linux-ONLY, I won't be letting him near the terminal since the machine will be proporly locked down in a manner that ONLY a multi-user operating system can EVER achieve (as opose to these wanna-be OS's with bolted on network and multi-user capabilities with their not so random, RNG...). He will not have an issue with using the desktop, using the internet, playing games cause the linux desktop is ready for general users.

And when he is old enough I will spec his first computer and get him to install Ubuntu onto it

 

[DOpamine]

<applause>

sorry for being pedantic but its GNU/Linux

 

[eeyrjmr]

<applause>

sorry for being pedantic but its GNU/Linux

very true, but you know the Yocals that camp here, its bad enough adding fact and details to cut through their brain-washing/FUD-slinging, let alone bringing in accurate labeling to things

concider it prolespeak

 

[Dunan]

Vista is inevitable.

and totally avoidable

i'd hardly go out and buy some super bloated resource hog that demads a complete upgrade in PC hardware only to watch the highly touted DX10 BOMB like it has.

even [H]ardOCP didn't give it a thumbs up

vista is the next windows ME

 

[DOpamine]

and totally avoidable

i'd hardly go out and buy some super bloated resource hog that demads a complete upgrade in PC hardware only to watch the highly touted DX10 BOMB like it has.

even [H]ardOCP didn't give it a thumbs up

vista is the next windows ME

ms have stated that their next releases will download from the internet rather than coming on a cd/dvd , what an excellent idea ... i wonder where they came up wish this brainwave .... meta-windows can hardly wait for that mess to arrive

 

[osalcido]

Every problem Ive had with vista since installing it a month ago has had to do with UAC

Disabling UAC Fixed ooodles of problems

 

[CptFalcon]

and totally avoidable

i'd hardly go out and buy some super bloated resource hog that demads a complete upgrade in PC hardware only to watch the highly touted DX10 BOMB like it has.

even [H]ardOCP didn't give it a thumbs up

vista is the next windows ME

Neither did they give it a thumbs down, careful what you say. I fail to see how Vista is the new MS. God he was right, people don't like how it works, they fear it and in a natural reaction start to poke and prod trying to find weakness. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Sometimes I wonder why we need instinct.

 

[DOpamine]

I really fail to see whats so wonderful about vista, 64 bit support? - had it for years, dx10? - not as good as openGL, defrag in the background? - dont need to defrag with a journalized filesystem, the fancy desktop? - youtube is full of videos that put "aero" to shame, DRM - Direct Rendering Management?? or that thing that stops you doing what you want to do? ( even if it is right on the line between legal and illegal ).

Really i cant see what makes it so wonderful .... saying its easier to use is having a larf too - sure its easy until something goes wrong , then your on the phone to that ever so nice woman explaining your problem only for her to tell you to do a virus scan ( you wouldnt have to if ms products had a proper security model ). Every ms release has been like this and its popularity is mostly down to ms products being bundled with new computers - what a scam! its all funny handshakes and kickbacks and people love it

 

[CptFalcon]

I really fail to see whats so wonderful about vista, 64 bit support? - had it for years, dx10? - not as good as openGL, defrag in the background? - dont need to defrag with a journalized filesystem, the fancy desktop? - youtube is full of videos that put "aero" to shame, DRM - Direct Rendering Management?? or that thing that stops you doing what you want to do? ( even if it is right on the line between legal and illegal ).

64 bit - XP's shit was never right, and you say that Linux can do it perfectly? Don't make me laugh. I tried Ubuntu 64-bit on my S939 and it crashed 24/7

DX10- Direct X is much easier to code than OpenGL. Don't get me wrong OpenGL is fine and dandy (I love Doom.) but compared to DX it's time consuming to various developers. It's a double-edged sword from both perspectives.

Defrag- Everyone needs defrag, I just got my A+ and even I know that no matter what OSFS files need to be defraged. Now if you have a new OS and FS which doesn't include a distro of Linux, then by all means share it with us.

Fancy desktop- Don't really know how to comment. Imma let this one go. Whatever floats your boat.

DRM- Never had a problem. Maybe for people who download music and shit illegally. Whatever you want to do.

Really i cant see what makes it so wonderful .... saying its easier to use is having a laugh too - sure its easy until something goes wrong , then your on the phone to that ever so nice woman explaining your problem only for her to tell you to do a virus scan ( you wouldn't have to if ms products had a proper security model ). Every ms release has been like this and its popularity is mostly down to ms products being bundled with new computers - what a scam! its all funny handshakes and kickbacks and people love it

Yes it is much easier. Normal customers that come into our shop who have no idea how to change their desktop in XP, but it startled me a little after this one older women (her kid wanted a cheap gaming PC so I built one for her cheap.) and she had customized her desktop and needed no direction from me to show her how to do it. Hell, she didn't even need my help to setup her Media Center and the Parental Restrictions for her kid.

Also could you also find someone to help you online. over the phone with a problem with Linux? No that isn't to say that the MS support, or any support for that matter, is better but what Average Joe calls up MS for their computer trouble? They call up the respective companies that they bought the computer from and then it becomes a frenzy of call transfers and other bullshit.

Saying that Linux is easier might be easy for you to say now because you already know how the entirety of the damn thing works but I bet you didn't say that when you first started using it. Besides the enthusiast community is very small as it is, why would the average people want to mass migrate to something that they would never understand how it works than stay with something that they are totally familiar with? Besides you preaching on the internet about how Linux is good is like trying to light a lantern without any flint. You won't be able to get millions of people to migrate to Linux; if you wanted everyone to migrate to Linux you have to hire MS to preach the word.

I have said enough and I am tired as it is. I gotta stop listening to My Cousin Vinnie. That movie is the shit!

 

[mdburkey]

I really fail to see whats so wonderful about vista, 64 bit support? - had it for years, dx10? - not as good as openGL, defrag in the background? - dont need to defrag with a journalized filesystem, the fancy desktop? - youtube is full of videos that put "aero" to shame, DRM - Direct Rendering Management?? or that thing that stops you doing what you want to do? ( even if it is right on the line between legal and illegal ).

Vista has *some* benefits over XP -- at least from "look & feel" perspective, which I have no real problem with. Off-screen rendering/desktop compositing is a good idea -- and does solve some of the inherent failings of the historical GDI interface. That said, "pretty" doesn't justify the overhead and cost.

64-bit support -- only in the 64-bit versions, which no one, including Microsoft, seems to be pushing.

DX10 -- does offer some nice effects and more accurately deals with current hardware capabilities. That said, I personally think OpenGL is a better platform overall and should be extended to better compete. From a programming standpoint, I'd personally like to chuck DirectX into the crapper -- regardless of the version.

A journaling file-system still DOES need optimizing and, if anything, can be worse to keep at optimum efficiency. From an access time standpoint, ext3 basically sucks once it has been up and running a while. When implemented properly, a journaling filesystem keeps the individual files contiguous, but they tend to end up even more spread out across the disk than they do in a Windows system. When accessing multiple files (like libraries) the disk can thrash quite badly.

DRM -- is of no benefit to anyone, including the RIAA/MPAA if they only had the sense to realize it. All it does it make the platforms less stable, constrains the use of the material, makes people less likely to purchase legal/protected content rather than more, causes unnecessary overhead on the system, slows the system itself, and helps to slow the rate of progress in new media/technology adoption. In essence, it hurts the sale of what the companies NEED to provide -- and the only people it truly stops are the casual copiers that aren't really a problem anyway. The serious hacks/pirates move to other platforms or find ways to work around the DRM anyway. Additionally, the entire "PMP" system that attempts to keep someone from copying an unprotected digital output at the far end (monitor) side of the stream is insane anyway -- no one in their right mind would want to copy it there unless they had to. It's basically raw video at this point and the bandwidths are phenomenal and would have to be re-encoded. The mass market pirates attack it at the other end -- the raw HD-DVD/BlueRay side -- and with all their vaunted keys and revocation capabilities exactly how successful have they been in stopping that so far? (e.g. AnyDVD, HD-DVD Decrypter, et al). As far as that goes, the real media pirates have access to disc pressing equipment and are quite capable of making a perfect copy of the entire media, keys and all, without ever bothering to even try working around the encryption!

 

[DOpamine]

64 bit - XP's shit was never right, and you say that Linux can do it perfectly? Don't make me laugh. I tried Ubuntu 64-bit on my S939 and it crashed 24/7

works perfectly here, did you try reading the manual ?

DX10- Direct X is much easier to code than OpenGL. Don't get me wrong OpenGL is fine and dandy (I love Doom.) but compared to DX it's time consuming to various developers. It's a double-edged sword from both perspectives.

http://www.libsdl.org/ for using openGL the easy way

Defrag- Everyone needs defrag, I just got my A+ and even I know that no matter what OSFS files need to be defraged. Now if you have a new OS and FS which doesn't include a distro of Linux, then by all means share it with us.

I use reiserfs ( yes i know he's up on a murder charge ) , i've never done a defrag since installing nor is there an app to do it with

Fancy desktop- Don't really know how to comment. Imma let this one go. Whatever floats your boat.

yeh i spose , dont really use it myself but i have compiz-fusion

DRM- Never had a problem. Maybe for people who download music and shit illegally. Whatever you want to do.

not really the point , "its my computer and i'll do what the hell i like" just like with a car - i can speed if i wish and it is against the law thats my prerogative

Yes it is much easier. Normal customers that come into our shop who have no idea how to change their desktop in XP, but it startled me a little after this one older women (her kid wanted a cheap gaming PC so I built one for her cheap.) and she had customized her desktop and needed no direction from me to show her how to do it. Hell, she didn't even need my help to setup her Media Center and the Parental Restrictions for her kid.

Also could you also find someone to help you online. over the phone with a problem with Linux? No that isn't to say that the MS support, or any support for that matter, is better but what Average Joe calls up MS for their computer trouble? They call up the respective companies that they bought the computer from and then it becomes a frenzy of call transfers and other bullshit.

Saying that Linux is easier might be easy for you to say now because you already know how the entirety of the damn thing works but I bet you didn't say that when you first started using it. Besides the enthusiast community is very small as it is, why would the average people want to mass migrate to something that they would never understand how it works than stay with something that they are totally familiar with? Besides you preaching on the internet about how Linux is good is like trying to light a lantern without any flint. You won't be able to get millions of people to migrate to Linux; if you wanted everyone to migrate to Linux you have to hire MS to preach the word.

I have said enough and I am tired as it is. I gotta stop listening to My Cousin Vinnie. That movie is the shit!

So vista is easier than xp ? try using more than one network card or setting up a scsi card - PITA!. Yes there are companies that specialize in GNU/Linux support http://tinyurl.com/2ppdk4 and because there are so many they are in competition so companies that give poor support wont last long , ofcourse you have all the information and source code to support yourself which is always a good thing too.
I will admit that when i first tried a GNU/Linux distro i was a bit confused but i stuck with it and after 2 weeks i had a pretty good understanding of how the CLI works. After that i ditched mandrake for it was crap and replaced it with slackware after another 4 or 5 weeks i was compiling source code for myself and making my own packages to install which was time consuming but gave me a greater understanding of how source code is ./configure -ed make -ed and make install -ed or check install -ed so then i ditched slackware for something that wasnt as time consuming and the latest craze at the time was debian - a meta distro , wow how easy is debian! after that i tried various other distros eventually settling with gentoo , the point of all this is its easy if you LEARN it just like you have to learn how to deal with windows. If you like i can setup a distro for you just as windows is setup with bundled packages from say dell and you can fumble through just as the windows users who dont know how to change a desktop theme do but ofcourse i'd charge for this service as i would for technical support after the guarantee had expired.
As for selling GNU/Linux ( yes i know they mostly refer to it as linux which is just a kernel! )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwEWxpOWOok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_C0oajdPXQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAr3XbqUbjo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BesI6NEPWlM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcxMWDpRCmU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDc9I3z7ab4

and so on....

 

[MrGuvernment]

I wonder if MS is counting all of the downgrades to XP as Vista sales. I don't see any benefit to moving to the DRM infested Mell,.............

OMG!! it is not DRM infested, drop that BS!, i am sure you can still play your illegal downloaded music collection and movies. yup, you can!


Vista only has DRM in it so you can PLA your DRM files, asside from rare problems with random people who may get once in a blue moon an error on some file, Vista does not stop you from playing NON drm content.

if it didnt then you would claim vista sucks cause you cant play DRM media, which beleive it or not, some people do own!

 

[MrGuvernment]

Also, not having speakers or headphones plugged in, refusing to play a clip, is not DRM, that is some other issue, a weird one to say the least!

 

[eeyrjmr]

64 bit - XP's shit was never right, and you say that Linux can do it perfectly? Don't make me laugh. I tried Ubuntu 64-bit on my S939 and it crashed 24/7

Oh noes XP-64bit is shite (so says you) maybe their next OS will be better... been saying that since 85 with Windows-1.0 and still "it will be better with their new OS..."
To be fair I actually like Windows-2000 (and I hear good things abt W2003) BUT the products they push for home-use are just crap!
and For the record been using 64bit linux here without any linux for a very long time

DX10- Direct X is much easier to code than OpenGL. Don't get me wrong OpenGL is fine and dandy (I love Doom.) but compared to DX it's time consuming to various developers. It's a double-edged sword from both perspectives.

Right so your experience in using OpenGL is... playing Doom... right that shows inside infomation ...
Fact is OpenGL is the industry standard for a 3D-API and it has grown in instructions as the industry demand, be it from 3D animation houses, to CAD to game-writers.

OpenGL is very easy to code in IF you know what you want. I mean doesn't take me long to create a plane with a normal vector pointing in some direction...
I will not be so arrogant to make passing statements about DirectX cause I have not coded in it (Have looked at it, thats all).
I take it from your statement "Direct X is much easier to code than OpenGL" that you have had extensive programming time with both API to make such a statement? cause I would hate to think you are just another sheep in the flock of MS-funboi's around here that just parrots what the next person says without any actual hands-on experience

WHAT I wall say on the matter is... DirectX looked appealing from the start because it was one all-encompassing API. You want GFX... DX provided the calls, you want SND, DX provides the calls, you want input and DX provides the calls. From code-house pov that was great, they only had to employ DX-people NOT OpenGL, OpenAL, SDL people...
THAT is the only benefit, a common API where a different fn do either snd,input or gfx

HOWEVER Microsoft screwed that up with DirectX-10... they removed direct hardware completly gimping DirectSound and thus making the likes of Creatives-X-Fi cards USELESS!!!!! all in the name of DRM... SO MS remove direct-access to all hardware to stop pirates getting corp's infomation (took nvidia not being able to implement all in userland for MS to open some direct-hardware to GFX...)

So what happened? Well GNU/Linux Actually had to save (or at least postpone the death of) gaming on Vista via the OpenAL sound API which creative have been investing in for years This allowed OpenAL-coded games to still get hardware-rendered sound effects AND WINE-like techniques to allow directsound games to still get direct hardware access

I mean the irony, you have to love it!!!! DirectX-10 was suppose to entice gamers to upgrade to Vista since it is seeing Linux as a SERIOUS threat, yet it has taken Linux and the FOSS coding genious's to allow gaming on Vista (like that in XP) to be possible. I mean you gotta love it really, people here dissing linux isn't ready YET it is saving Vista HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!one!!!!!

So what exactly does DirectX-10 bring apart from gimpage from Hardware/user P.O.V. ? Optimisation? nop been dismissed by MS directly saying you can achive the same performance in DX9
Graphics? Well compare DX10-3D to DX9-3D and what do you get... oooo shader4 oooo soo worth it....
Is such GFX effects unique/exclusive? NO!!!! OpenGL-3.0 which is here now has all the visual effects that DX10 is suppose to provide plus more AND it is available for Windows-XP,Windows-2000,Linux,MAC....

It has already been stated that the cost of developing games for the nextgen consoles mean fewer games and more cross-platform games. Cross-platform mean only one thing and that is OpenGL. PS3 uses it, Mac uses it, Nintendo uses it, Linux uses it, Windows uses it
I mean DirectX ONLY works one one family of Operating systems and one family of consoles FAR to small a market for exlusive coding in it from 3rd-party houses to sustain (I mean even EA made recent calls for a industry std... funny it exists)

Defrag- Everyone needs defrag, I just got my A+ and even I know that no matter what OSFS files need to be defraged. Now if you have a new OS and FS which doesn't include a distro of Linux, then by all means share it with us.

While it is true every filesystem-structure has the potential to need defragging WHAT isn't true is that every filesystem NEEDS defragging. Only filesystems with stupid filesystem drivers need defragging. Take Ext3 for instance (or even ext2, and maybe ext.. never used it or probed it so not sure) It has an inteligent filesystem driver and IF a file needs to be written to disk It won't just start filling up space left from deleted files (which increase the chance of fragmenting a file) IT will write to the first biggest contiguous space it finds leaving smaller gaps for other files. Sure this approach has issues with very large files getting written to disk and another file gets written mid-write causeing the larger file to fragment, but Ext4 has an improved pre-allocation to get around this problem during parallel writes

Fancy desktop- Don't really know how to comment. Imma let this one go. Whatever floats your boat.

true, such things are of personal preference (personally I love compiz and it is very productive). What it is showing however is that Vista isn't doing anything special except doing it all for a big pricetag AND higher hardware-spec overhead and not only that but conning people into believing them...

DRM- Never had a problem. Maybe for people who download music and shit illegally. Whatever you want to do.

Lucky you... I have had to spend a good few hours the other day trying to explain to someone at work the CD's he ripped using SOny's audio-package (for is sony player in sony's drm format) is locked to his old/dead PC and while the HD is alive the file are USELESS due to DRM locking to A machine! He kept on at me "but you must be able todo something, I don't want to rip them again" Truth be told short of breaking the law there is NOTHING that can be done to get those files to play on the new machine
DRM screws over the legitimate people while the pirates get the better quality product. He is now re-ripping all his CD's using CDex in MP3 so the files are player/PC/Operating-System Agonistic... as it should be
More and more companies are going away from DRM because they reduce sales (recent figures show when EMI started selling non-drm tracks sales were 4-1 in favour of pure mp3) OR companies are seeing gov'n starting to back the consumer and their rights that DRM take away!

DRM is bad FACT

Yes it is much easier. Normal customers that come into our shop who have no idea how to change their desktop in XP, but it startled me a little after this one older women (her kid wanted a cheap gaming PC so I built one for her cheap.) and she had customized her desktop and needed no direction from me to show her how to do it. Hell, she didn't even need my help to setup her Media Center and the Parental Restrictions for her kid.

Also could you also find someone to help you online. over the phone with a problem with Linux? No that isn't to say that the MS support, or any support for that matter, is better but what Average Joe calls up MS for their computer trouble? They call up the respective companies that they bought the computer from and then it becomes a frenzy of call transfers and other bullshit.

Saying that Linux is easier might be easy for you to say now because you already know how the entirety of the damn thing works but I bet you didn't say that when you first started using it. Besides the enthusiast community is very small as it is, why would the average people want to mass migrate to something that they would never understand how it works than stay with something that they are totally familiar with? Besides you preaching on the internet about how Linux is good is like trying to light a lantern without any flint. You won't be able to get millions of people to migrate to Linux; if you wanted everyone to migrate to Linux you have to hire MS to preach the word.

I have said enough and I am tired as it is. I gotta stop listening to My Cousin Vinnie. That movie is the shit!

Windows isn't easier then Linux it is different., The only reason that support exist in-store is cause they have windows support. The fact that they had to take the PC into a shop or phone someone for windows issues just shows that windows isn't easy and that it doesn't just works otherwise that person wouldn't have to ask for help would they... simple primary school logic You only ask for help if you need help

Fact is more and more places are providing linux support. I myself (and alot of linux users I know) provide support to quite a large number be it via the forums or IRC.I provide hands-on support to ~10ppl at work and the thing is once something is shown to these people they have all gone "oh that makes sense" cause generally it does in linux and since programs are verbose on errors it means it is easy to find the issue.


so whats your next load of FUD you are going to be providing?

 

[pxc]

LOL @ ignorant anti-Vista crusaders. I had a good laugh this morning. Some of you should start sharikou-like blogs to spread the uninformed "message."

 

[DOpamine]

just balancing against the vista lovers - i dont mind what people use but ms has such a monopoly it affects what i do and what i want to do , be happy with ms products if you wish , I and people like me will just point and laugh at your claims as we know its inferior to other oses - as for DRM , do you want it ? if not why do you have it? simple its been forced upon you!

 

[mdburkey]

Also, not having speakers or headphones plugged in, refusing to play a clip, is not DRM, that is some other issue, a weird one to say the least!

It is part of Vista's DRM -- the Protected Media Path -- which is designed to provide end to end protection for playback. This is why monitors, etc. have to be HDCP compliant to play back HD video under Vista.

What is weirder is that once the headphones were in there at least once during a Windows session, it works. But, for kicks, I unplugged the headphones while the clip was playing -- it got SERIOUSLY unhappy and started playing in slow motion and then looping over the same spot in the video repeatedly -- at which point I couldn't close Media Player either without resorting to the Task Manager.

Yes, this is no more than a bug, but it is a bug that would never have been there had it not been for the PMP and DRM requirements -- which, having seen what is required for both audio and video drivers under Vista, on its own is probably responsible for the majority of the driver problems that Vista has experienced.

And DRM quite often *does* affect people playing back media that they legally own -- like the fact that I can't playback some media to my HDTV via my DVI adapter because the TV is not HDCP compliant. Or the fact that I have a monitor that is supposedly HDCP compliant that doesn't work either (which, admittedly, is more likely a problem with the monitor than with Vista). The point is, this crap should never have been in there in the first place.

 

[Blitzrommel]

LOL @ ignorant anti-Vista crusaders. I had a good laugh this morning. Some of you should start sharikou-like blogs to spread the uninformed "message."

I'm not pro-Vista (especially here at work), but seriously, there's so much hostility towards Vista in this thread and lots of it isn't even a big deal. I suppose I'm just lucky in that the only two issues I've ever had was 1) the Cisco VPN client which was remedied and 2) The Vista native drivers for the Cisco Aironet CB21ABG drivers totally suck and crashes my laptop all the time. Other than that, I'm very happy with its performance and reliability. I do notice that for a few tasks, there's more clicking involved with the default menus, especially network-related. But like all things, I got used to it.

That being said, Vista isn't in OUR company yet because of custom web-applications (read: poorly written applications) and everyone's scared of how Vista will work with these. We now have the licenses to upgrade all of our machines, ~7000 of them, but we still have a few hundred machines on Windows 2000 and we want to ugprade them to Windows XP/Office 2003 before upgrading the company to Vista. I am the lead on that project and it's going slow -- about 2 machines a day. That being said... even after it's complete, we still need to do significant testing for our main applications before rolling out Vista. And then, there's the whole issue of retraining users. As it's been said in this thread many times, the average user barely knows how to run a computer whatsoever. They may only because their kid has a PC at home, and that's it. Even after I upgraded many users from 2k to XP, they were very lost when their data was saved where it should be, on their network shared drive. Anyway, I'm just rambling at this point.

These aren't issues with Vista per se, but with a new platform in general. Upgrading users to XP from 2000 isn't a huge undertaking because we already know our apps work under XP. People are just scared of change, especially the average user who doesn't know how Windows works and just knows how to do their job on a computer and nothing more. But unfortunately, change of some kind is inevitable -- and like with Windows 2000, XP isn't going to be around forever at most corporations as they get ready to go to Vista.

One of the core concepts of being successful is being able to adapt to change. technology changes, people's demands change. The only problem is change can also bring along downtime, though this is usually temporary.

 

[DOpamine]

LOL @ ignorant anti-Vista crusaders. I had a good laugh this morning. Some of you should start sharikou-like blogs to spread the uninformed "message."

btw , i hope the term "ignorant" doesnt apply to me

 

[mdburkey]

OMG!! it is not DRM infested, drop that BS!, i am sure you can still play your illegal downloaded music collection and movies. yup, you can!

Vista only has DRM in it so you can PLA your DRM files, asside from rare problems with random people who may get once in a blue moon an error on some file, Vista does not stop you from playing NON drm content.

if it didnt then you would claim vista sucks cause you cant play DRM media, which beleive it or not, some people do own!

As usual, this is the typical clueless response on the DRM issues.

Yes, non-DRM media like MP3's playback just FINE under Vista 99.9% of the time.
That is not the problem.

It is DRM protected stuff (DVR-MS, WMV, WMA, etc) that often has problems unless all of your hardware and drivers are 100% perfect. And woe be it upon you if you have some piece of software or hardware installed that the system considers compromised or questionable -- then it will refuse to playback the video at all or possibly just downgrade the quality.

The issue is NOT for the people stealing massive quantities of files off the Internet -- it doesn't effect them! Similarly, if you rip video content to disk first and remove the encryption and CSS, etc. it works just fine. So all of the brilliant DRM and PMP is Vista does nothing to actually protect the media providers content -- the only thing it does is cause inumerable headaches for those people who do purchase their content legally.

It's a lot like gun control -- the criminals are going to ignore it anyway and the people who do respect it are the ones you didn't need to worry about in the first place.

 

[eeyrjmr]

btw , i hope the term "ignorant" doesnt apply to me

yer otherwise gotta love the irony of an ignorant person using the term

 

[Dunan]

Neither did they give it a thumbs down, careful what you say. I fail to see how Vista is the new MS. God he was right, people don't like how it works, they fear it and in a natural reaction start to poke and prod trying to find weakness. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Sometimes I wonder why we need instinct.

They didnt?

30 Days with Windows Vista

Comparisons, conjecture, and controversy. Microsoft's new operating system is here, but is it ready for primetime? We spend 30 days with Windows Vista to see if it's worth the leap or if Microsoft should go back to the drawing board.

The Bottom Line

It's a lemon.

Based on my personal experiences with Vista over a 30 day period, I found it to be a dangerously unstable operating system, which has caused me to lose data. The 64-bit version is slightly better (which, frankly, surprised the hell out of us and makes us wonder if Microsoft didn't make a mistake in choosing to only distribute Home Premium 32-bit in the retail channel), but it still has stability problems.

I don't want to give into hyperbole, but at the end of the 30 days, I begged Managing Editor Jason Wall to let me reformat my computer and stop testing.

I really did want to like Vista. Yes, it is possible to enjoy both Windows and Linux - but unfortunately this product is unfit for any user. I still intend to keep a Windows XP partition on my computer for gaming and some multimedia editing, but as of the time of this publication, I have removed Vista entirely.

Kyle did add this though to be fair:

Editor-in-Chief's Note: The fact is that Vista is far from "unfit for any user," and this statement by the author is simply incorrect. If you read the discussion thread linked below you will find there are many Vista users that are having positive experiences. The author's experiences are his own and I think a great look into just some of the complications that can come with upgrading to Vista. Some have had worse experiences and some have had better. -Kyle

There are a few sites that had this opinion also. I'm sure vista will go the way XP did in due time, but not for a long time. M$ released an OS that wasnt needed, XP is still doing everything a user needs it to do, M$ just wanted to get a little more $$ in their pockets because everyone knows a vast majority if its revenues come from its OS and office sales.

 

[mdburkey]

I'm not pro-Vista (especially here at work), but seriously, there's so much hostility towards Vista in this thread and lots of it isn't even a big deal. I suppose I'm just lucky in that the only two issues I've ever had was 1) the Cisco VPN client which was remedied and 2) The Vista native drivers for the Cisco Aironet CB21ABG drivers totally suck and crashes my laptop all the time. Other than that, I'm very happy with its performance and reliability. I do notice that for a few tasks, there's more clicking involved with the default menus, especially network-related. But like all things, I got used to it.

I've had more issues than that -- but most have been fixable. The bigger factor has been that, with the networking related issues, the same fixes rarely work twice. There seems to be very little rhyme or reason to when you will have problems.

Ditto on the menu layout and also a lot of the button placement on file browsing windows -- it is slower to work with and takes more clicks. This is just an annoyance but is not a serious reason to bash Vista. I still maintain though that Microsoft should have had a better human factors person look over the UI interaction model after the engineers and graphics art people got done with it.

That being said, Vista isn't in OUR company yet because of custom web-applications (read: poorly written applications) and everyone's scared of how Vista will work with these. We now have the licenses to upgrade all of our machines, ~7000 of them, but we still have a few hundred machines on Windows 2000 and we want to ugprade them to Windows XP/Office 2003 before upgrading the company to Vista. I am the lead on that project and it's going slow -- about 2 machines a day. That being said... even after it's complete, we still need to do significant testing for our main applications before rolling out Vista.

..Upgrading users to XP from 2000 isn't a huge undertaking because we already know our apps work under XP....

The biggest headaches I have had with Vista, other than funky driver and network issues, have been with software compatibility. There are still a lot of apps that just do not work properly with Vista -- many of which like never will. The other point is that the upgrade from 2000 to XP is a lot easier to do than the XP to Vista transition. The inner workings of 2000 and XP are a lot more alike and right now I honestly can't even think of a standalone software package for 2000 that won't work properly with XP.

And then, there's the whole issue of retraining users. As it's been said in this thread many times, the average user barely knows how to run a computer whatsoever. They may only because their kid has a PC at home, and that's it. Even after I upgraded many users from 2k to XP, they were very lost when their data was saved where it should be, on their network shared drive. Anyway, I'm just rambling at this point.

These aren't issues with Vista per se, but with a new platform in general. People are just scared of change, especially the average user who doesn't know how Windows works and just knows how to do their job on a computer and nothing more. But unfortunately, change of some kind is inevitable -- and like with Windows 2000, XP isn't going to be around forever at most corporations as they get ready to go to Vista.

Shudder....you are "preaching to the choir" on this one. Been there, done that. Until you actually have to do IT support for a while you have no idea just how clueless the "average" user really is.

One of the core concepts of being successful is being able to adapt to change. technology changes, people's demands change. The only problem is change can also bring along downtime, though this is usually temporary.

And downtime and retraining cost money -- which is why the cost/benefit ratio of upgrading to Vista needs to be looked at very carefully -- with the issue being, for a business environment exactly what does Vista bring to the table that is worth the investment and downtime.

Improved security? Maybe, but I'm not convinced.

Stability? Not yet at least.

Bit-Locker Encryption? A disaster waiting to happen.
Ever tried explaining how to backup their keys to the average user?
It is a lot safer to use something like PGP Desktop or TrueCrypt.
They are both also a lot easier to explain to the end user.

 

[Rebel44]

Just for those who said Vista isnt stable



As you can my uptime right now is more than 400 hours (which is +- my average) and I reboot only when I install new drivers for my GPU or OS updates.

 

[MrGuvernment]

It is part of Vista's DRM -- the Protected Media Path -- which is designed to provide end to end protection for playback. This is why monitors, etc. have to be HDCP compliant to play back HD video under Vista.

What is weirder is that once the headphones were in there at least once during a Windows session, it works. But, for kicks, I unplugged the headphones while the clip was playing -- it got SERIOUSLY unhappy and started playing in slow motion and then looping over the same spot in the video repeatedly -- at which point I couldn't close Media Player either without resorting to the Task Manager.

Yes, this is no more than a bug, but it is a bug that would never have been there had it not been for the PMP and DRM requirements -- which, having seen what is required for both audio and video drivers under Vista, on its own is probably responsible for the majority of the driver problems that Vista has experienced.

And DRM quite often *does* affect people playing back media that they legally own -- like the fact that I can't playback some media to my HDTV via my DVI adapter because the TV is not HDCP compliant. Or the fact that I have a monitor that is supposedly HDCP compliant that doesn't work either (which, admittedly, is more likely a problem with the monitor than with Vista). The point is, this crap should never have been in there in the first place.

dam, serious, shiet, that does suck ass! thanks for the clarification for the audio.


DRM does suck ass, sucks more apple selling no-drm items for more money too!, but for the majority of vista users, they wont ever notice DRM, so MS said lets toss it in to comply for our majority marketshare.

From my experience, i ripped about 40 cd's the other day, but i didnt use anything sony, nothing, i use fomr other better programs that dont rip with DRM.

So now it is a mix between what software did you use to get the items to your player / computer, and is it MS fault Sony program put in the DRM to stop it from playing....i beleive for Windows, you can choose not to rip using DRM? i recall seeing that option in media player somewhere.

 

[DOpamine]

Just for those who said Vista isnt stable



As you can my uptime right now is more than 400 hours (which is +- my average) and I reboot only when I install new drivers for my GPU or OS updates.

400 hours ... any advance on 400 hours... yes the anonymous belgian gentleman with 2976 hours .... sold
he says that it was the diesel generator that failed in the end but what do you expect from a 2½ world county

 

[DOpamine]

http://omploader.org/vNnB2/2007-11-13-195646_1680x1050_scrot.png

thats like stability without gin

 

[mdburkey]

Just for those who said Vista isnt stable

As you can my uptime right now is more than 400 hours (which is +- my average) and I reboot only when I install new drivers for my GPU or OS updates.

Some Vista machines ARE stable -- some are not -- with the more of the later than the former. It is primarily a function of the drivers -- which is not an excuse IMHO.

The issue being -- is it more stable than XP?
The machine I am currently using was last rebooted 25 days ago.
My development machine was last rebooted about 4 MONTHS ago.
My #1 HTPC has been up for 31 days, my #2 HTPC has been up for 16 (when I learned my UPS had gone bad when the power flickered -- during Atlantis as bad luck would have it).
My home server, until adding a hard drive a few days ago had been up for well over six months -- and it may have been longer than that (don't remember).

 

[DOpamine]

well being more stable than xp isnt too hard also 4 MONTHS isnt too long either depending on what your running ofcoruse , 4 MONTHS of running a screensaver isnt too hard . I'm talking about uptimes in years