Vista DRM Q&A

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Rich Tate

Supreme [H]ardness
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Jun 9, 2005
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There has been a lot of discussion lately revolving what Vista’s copyright protection scheme will and won’t do. The Windows Vista Team has decided to answer 20 popular questions to help set the record straight.

A conversation has cropped up since the recent publication of a paper scrutinizing how Windows handles digital rights management, especially for HD video. I've since looped back with Dave Marsh, a Lead Program Manager responsible for Windows' handling of video, to learn from him the implications involved and to learn to what extent the paper's assertions are accurate. The following is an article Dave has put together to address the misconceptions in the paper, followed by answers to what we expect will be the most frequent questions in the minds of our customers.
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I know I will be forced to use Vista at work but it will never come to my home computer.

Thankfully both hd-dvd and blu-ray are cracked now so I can enjoy premium content if needed. Then again I've boycoted the media industry for 3 years already and I really can't say I've suffered for it. I used to be a hardcore audiophile with major spendings on audio yearly - now for the last 3 years I've bought 2 cds from discount and dismantled my audio gear. I use Pandora on the computer and watch movies from tv without paying any extra anywhere.

Counting from my earlier spending, this single consumer protest has cost the media industry $3000 as I used to spend about a grand per year on audio/video minimum (major hardware purchases every 5-10 years only). This year will be another $1000 lost of my money. And I enjoy every time I can skip past the record shop and spit in their general direction.
 
So MS has confirmed that they have done everything to Windows that the MPAA and RIAA have ordered them to.
 
And they wanted to squash the ruomors but all they did was confirm the original article.
 
All that blog is doing is taking a pill containing poising and wrapping a delicious candy shell around it. I liked how he dodged around the protected audio flag that they plan to enable. What he doesn't say is that there will be things that you can do just fine on Windows XP that will no longer be possible with Vista- namely the CD audio flag that will prevent you from ripping CDs that have the flag enabled on them all in the name to stop piracy. The piracy excuse is old...people who choose to download and share music aren't pirates. The RIAA/MPAA are making tons more money these days off new licensing schemes as it is. Piracy is the red herring that allows them to basically make us pay more in order to receive the same content in various formats.
 
Well we were all wondering when and how Linux would over take Microsoft. I mean Microsoft would have to do something impressively stupid like shoot itself in the face with a shotgun. And here we are less than two-weeks out to public availability.

It just goes to show you even with the best engineers, programers, and people in the world working on this software, all it takes is 1 greedy asshole and 5 years of development to screw it up.
 
Wow, all you Microsoft bashers are so closed-minded and not considering the least what these things are implemented for. Let me clarify this: everything Microsoft has implemented is REQUIRED to play back HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content. There are only two choices here, either Microsoft implements these features and you can enjoy next-gen material, or Microsoft can skip it and completely lock out all next-gen media.

Would you rather no DRM, and therefore no HD media playback?!? I DIDN'T THINK SO!!!
 
InorganicMatter said:
Wow, all you Microsoft bashers are so closed-minded and not considering the least what these things are implemented for. Let me clarify this: everything Microsoft has implemented is REQUIRED to play back HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content. There are only two choices here, either Microsoft implements these features and you can enjoy next-gen material, or Microsoft can skip it and completely lock out all next-gen media.

Would you rather no DRM, and therefore no HD media playback?!? I DIDN'T THINK SO!!!
Click to expand...

So before you praise OSX for not supporting DRM, just remember you won't be watching HD-DVD or Blu-Ray media on your system.
 
InorganicMatter said:
So before you praise OSX for not supporting DRM, just remember you won't be watching HD-DVD or Blu-Ray media on your system.
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Not everything has to be played back on a computer. I watch movies on my tv not my computer so it would be no big deal for me.

Its more the fat that all the "protections" can and will eventually be used by other industries as well. The whole thing about the MPAA/RIAA fucking with graphics drivers I dont like either. Todays cards barely play back the most demanding games, now they want to bloat all graphic drivers with their drm junk.

They should give up on DRM altogether. It will never work and will always be circumvented.
 
Im more pissed at everybody in the technology industry bending over backwards and doing as the MPAA and RIAA demand them to do.

They are spending billions in DRM to stop billions in piracy, whats the point?
 
BoogerBomb said:
Not everything has to be played back on a computer. I watch movies on my tv not my computer so it would be no big deal for me.
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Great, so Microsoft should forgo what all the other consumers want and risk an MPAA lawsuit because random internet user number 9372 is "angry" about DRM technology? Someone call the Waaambulance!
 
BoogerBomb said:
Im more pissed at everybody in the technology industry bending over backwards and doing as the MPAA and RIAA demand them to do.

They are spending billions in DRM to stop billions in piracy, whats the point?
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There is no point what so ever. All it is doing is making consumers mad, and increasing people using not legit software and alike.
 
Look I understand protecting and investment. But there is a line, remember when Sony rootkitted everyones computer and ruined some peoples cd-rom drives. Can you imagine how much more secure Vista would be if they spent the time on security they wasted on this kinda of crap.

Right now and in the foreseeable future I dont have a blu-ray or hd-dvd drive on my pc... and I don't want/need that drm crap on my os. I"m not paying to have my system hijaked by the RIAA, MPAA, Sony, or any other bottom feeding corporate bstds.

Some of you won't get it because its really a matter of principle and it crossing a line. Would you buy an inkpen with a camera built into it that records and sends data back to the manufacturer in case you use the pistol in a crime? Oh and you have to pay for the technology and research to make said pen work, so now it cost 15.00 for a pen. Do not assume the consumer is a criminal...
Remember when you were innocent until proven guilt... you know before the pirates, and terrorist, and anti-american bs, and historical documents. thank you Condie, thank you
 
None of the 20 questions that were asked,were properly and honestly answered,they were danced around and skirted fairly well though,by MS/RIAA/MPAA's Marketing Dept. :mad:
 
They are spending billions in DRM to stop billions in piracy, whats the point?
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Exactly. Can you imagine if they spent that same money looking for new talent and promoting it?

What musician in the last 10 years will be remembered in 20 or 30? Certainly not Britney Spears or the likes of her. Atleast my generation (30's to 40's) has the Rolling Stones, AC/DC, Aerosmith, etc...

Why would anyone install software that has the potential to fatally make hardware useless is beyond me!
 
Will the playback quality be reduced on some video output types?

Image quality constraints are only active when required by the policy associated with the content being played, and then only apply to that specific content -- not to any other content on the user's desktop. As a practical matter, image constraint will typically result in content being played at no worse than standard definition television resolution. In the case of HD optical media formats such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the constraint requirement is 520K pixels per frame (i.e., roughly 960x540), which is still higher than the native resolution of content distributed in the DVD-Video format. We feel that this is still yields a great user experience, even when using a high definition screen.

WOW!
 
InorganicMatter said:
Would you rather no DRM, and therefore no HD media playback?!? I DIDN'T THINK SO!!!
Click to expand...

Dont think for me ok? I'd personally rather MS get some stones and stand up to the industry and say NO we will not;
Implement hardware checking to monitor buss voltages to check for tampering
We wont implement DRM that will cripple a machine if we detect anything we feel may be tampering
We wont prevent virtual device drivers from operating.

It BS and not what I buy an OS for.
 
Wow, all you people truly, truly amaze me.

You are bitching and moaning that Microsoft has followed the AACS guidelines in their implementation of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray playback! The S/PDIF disabling and downscaling over analog technologies are nothing more than compliance with the ICT technology in AACS DRM technology. All HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are required to support these technologies; putting out players (hardware or software) that bypass said protection is a violation of the DMCA.

Now, let us think about this. Microsoft can comply with the rest of the industry standards, or they can go along with you guys stupid DRM "boycott," putting themselves at odds with the MPAA and their software in violation of the DMCA. Tough choice. You people need to think about the long-term effects of actions like this before you just spout off "zooomg, DRM are teh evil and MS is teh evil for following DRM standards LOOOOAAAALLLLLLLL!!!!!!!" Good grief. :rolleyes: :mad:
 
I should also point out that I stopped reading that idiotic article at the "Disabling of Functionality" section. The author clearly shows that he knows nothing of the AACS standards, and is nothing more than an angry Microsoft hater. I love this part:

Vista's content protection mechanism only allows protected content to be sent over interfaces that also have content-protection facilities built in. Currently the most common high-end audio output interface is S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format). Most newer audio cards, for example, feature TOSlink digital optical output for high-quality sound reproduction, and even the latest crop of motherboards with integrated audio provide at least coax (and often optical) digital output. Since S/PDIF doesn't provide any content protection, Vista requires that it be disabled when playing protected content. In other words if you've sunk a pile of money into a high-end audio setup fed from an S/PDIF digital output, you won't be able to use it with protected content.
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WRONG SIR, WRONG! Like all high def players, Vista is subject to the ICT. Any and all non-protected outputs can be disabled, if the CONTENT PROVIDER so chooses. The key word is content provider, and not Microsoft. If the studios are OK with S/PDIF, you can use it just fine; if studios don't like non-DRMed outputs, they can set the ICT flag in their content to not allow S/PDIF. It is up to the content provider, not Microsoft. Vista doesn't disable all S/PDIF outputs.
 
Let me ask you DRM !!!!!!s then, Who is to blame when someone goes out and buys a HD-DVD player or a Blu-Ray player and brings it home to hook it up their hi-def plasma screen only to realize that
1. They don't even have an hdmi port
2. There was no such thing as HDCP when they bought their screen
3. They upscaling hd-dvd/blu-ray wont even upscale their regular dvds.
4. When not if, they start using the ICT flag they can't view any hd-dvd's/blu-rays on their setup.

Yea, its the consumers fault??? I don't think so. You shouldn't have to buy a new car just because a safer tire comes out...

The people that are going to go around this technology are still going to hack it and go around, so stop wasting time, money, and fucking up drivers to protect movies in this country when most of the pirating doesn't even happen in this country, its china, india etc..
 
My favorite parts:
"the constraint requirement is 520K pixels per frame (i.e., roughly 960x540), which is still higher than the native resolution of content distributed in the DVD-Video format. We feel that this is still yields a great user experience, even when using a high definition screen."

"It is a happy side effect that this technology trend also reduces the number of vulnerable tracks on the board."

Especially this one:
"Yes. However, the use of additional CPU cycles is inevitable, as the PC provides consumers with additional functionality. "

Man I just cant wait for the "Happy side effect" of my very expensive LCD and PC lowering my resolution to "roughly 960x540" so I can experience this "additional functionality." (or lack there of!)
 
It would be one thing if all of this crap actually worked, but the truth is it is largely experimental and doesn't work that well.
Look Here

I challenge one of the proponets to show me a working computer with the video card, operating system, and lcd screen that is actually playing an hd-dvd video on their system.
Using HDCP not going around it. Not a test bed, or proof of concept, show me one where I can walk in to the store and get one.
 
anyone else notice this "article" is nothing but marketing bullshit and side stepping questions. There is no real answers there.

I know for a long time I'll be running XP as my main OS and dual-booting with Vista, using Vista only for DX10 stuff.
 
Good God.

Vista's content protection mechanisms will not affect you if you choose to stay away from protected content. If you don't like DRM, don't buy products that use it. No iTunes, no DVD, no nothing! Vista supports it if you choose to buy HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays, but if you don't like them, don't buy them. Nobody's forcing you.

I'm curious to see how long it takes those of you who will be "dual booting" to start using Vista full-time. Assuming you have drivers for everything, Vista is actually a pleasure to use.
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
Good God.

Vista's content protection mechanisms will not affect you if you choose to stay away from protected content. Nobody's forcing you.
Click to expand...

Absolutely wrong, You didn't do your homework. Whether or not you have a blu-ray or hd-dvd player or even own the content it affects you.
1. More expensive Hardware, videocards, motherboards, and lcd screen cost will go up.
2. The consumer is going to have to pay for the cost associated with new software drivers and hardware to support the new standard.
3. Added complexity, the new drivers, and HAL adds to complexity of the codebase allowing more room for errors and problems and more expense developing them.
4. Just the checking for this system is going to use cpu cycles.

So whether or not you own media or even play, it affects you. Your option is to not upgrade, which isn't really an option.
 
You can bitch at M$ all you want, but ultimately it is up to us, the consumer, to stop all this DRM crap. I'm not talking about pirating stuff either. I'm talking about giving it up all together. I haven't bought a CD or DVD in about 2 years and I've written a letter to every studio to let them know why. If you really hate DRM then I suggest you do the same. If we all stopped buying CD and DVDs and let the studios know why, all this would go away. But as long as we all just sit back and take it or try to hack our way around it, things will only get worse.
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
Good God.

Vista's content protection mechanisms will not affect you if you choose to stay away from protected content. If you don't like DRM, don't buy products that use it. No iTunes, no DVD, no nothing! Vista supports it if you choose to buy HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays, but if you don't like them, don't buy them. Nobody's forcing you.

I'm curious to see how long it takes those of you who will be "dual booting" to start using Vista full-time. Assuming you have drivers for everything, Vista is actually a pleasure to use.
Click to expand...

They are forcing graphics card people to put DRM crap in their drivers. This worries me as the drivers are already bloated as is. Now instead of focusing on improving performance or problems they will have to focus on the DRM requirements above all else.

The problem with staying away from protected content is that ALL content is protected, there is no such this as non-protected content. Even cd's on Vista that werent made with content protection will now have it.
 
ferrisnox said:
Absolutely wrong, You didn't do your homework. Whether or not you have a blu-ray or hd-dvd player or even own the content it affects you.
1. More expensive Hardware, videocards, motherboards, and lcd screen cost will go up.
2. The consumer is going to have to pay for the cost associated with new software drivers and hardware to support the new standard.
3. Added complexity, the new drivers, and HAL adds to complexity of the codebase allowing more room for errors and problems and more expense developing them.
4. Just the checking for this system is going to use cpu cycles.

So whether or not you own media or even play, it affects you. Your option is to not upgrade, which isn't really an option.
Click to expand...

1. Video card prices have been going up on their own for quite some time without the help of the MPAA. Motherboards - come on, who here has seen an HDCP compliant motherboard? LCD screens - correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Dell release a new line of HDCP compliant LCDs at one point at the same price point as the old ones? Did the price of the Apple 30" Cinema Display go up when they added HDCP?

Here's a great example:

X1950XTX w/HDCP support:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102045

X1950XTX w/o HDCP support:

Notice how the one without HDCP is well over $50 more expensive?

Trust me, next to the cost of FABing a high performance GPU on a 90nm or lower process, an HDCP chip may as well be made out of tinker toys.

2. Drivers are free, and 1. covered hardware.

3. Again, drivers are free. As for errors just because of DRM - I doubt it.

4. Yes, it will use CPU cycles - if you use protected content! If you don't, the system doesn't care.

BoogerBomb said:
They are forcing graphics card people to put DRM crap in their drivers. This worries me as the drivers are already bloated as is. Now instead of focusing on improving performance or problems they will have to focus on the DRM requirements above all else.
Click to expand...

Did you know that since Windows XP, driver makers have had to include an implementation of OpenGL in the driver? Compared to that, supporting third-party encryption is likely small potatoes. But then, I've never actually written a driver before - have you? Has the person who wrote that paper?


BoogerBomb said:
The problem with staying away from protected content is that ALL content is protected, there is no such this as non-protected content. Even cd's on Vista that werent made with content protection will now have it.
Click to expand...

Really? I'm running Vista right now, and I recently ripped four CDs (which I bought legally) to MP3. These MP3s work on my MP3 player, on my other computers...you know, I'd really love to see how they went and messed with LAME when I turned my back to stick in that eeeeeeeeeeevil DRM.

My point here isn't that DRM is good or evil. I really don't care at this point. All I know is, I'm using Vista right now. The MPAA doesn't control my machine, the system doesn't freeze every 30 ms to see if my GTX is HDCP compliant, and EAC and LAME still work as advertised.
 
jwp27577 said:
You can bitch at M$ all you want, but ultimately it is up to us, the consumer, to stop all this DRM crap. I'm not talking about pirating stuff either. I'm talking about giving it up all together. I haven't bought a CD or DVD in about 2 years and I've written a letter to every studio to let them know why. If you really hate DRM then I suggest you do the same. If we all stopped buying CD and DVDs and let the studios know why, all this would go away. But as long as we all just sit back and take it or try to hack our way around it, things will only get worse.
Click to expand...

Agreed! I'm on my 8th year of no RIAA aligned CD purchases and my 4th year on no MPAA aligned DVD purchases, and my last purchase from Sony was unfortunately for a PSP which I never use, so whenever the PSP released was my last Sony purchase.

The RIAA and MPAA could get my business back if they dump the DRM but Sony... Sony will never receive another dime of my money ever again. That company is BROKEN.
 
Microsoft has screwed up majorly here. They could've put their foot down and molded the direction to something more palatable, but instead, they really enjoyed the thought of the control all this DRM and "additional functionality" could give them over users. MS will face backlash. I just hope it will be enough.

Personally, I haven't bought music for at least 4 years, and I can't remember when I bought a movie last. The only games I've bought the last few years are some with sensible protection. I guess the money they're "losing" on me is due to "piracy". Yeah right.
 
Personally, I don't blame Microsoft for taking the route that they have. Do I agree with it, no. However, they are a business and as such have to work within the certain constraints.

Now, what I do have a problem with is people that go on and on along the lines of "those who are complaining about DRM are stupid". I'm sorry, I don't agree with DRM. I personally think that companies,individuals, and the government should stand up to the RIAA/MPAA and tell them to "back off". I get really tired of the attitude of "Microsoft is just doing what it is supposed to to be compliant". There is WAY too much compliancy going around resulting in the media industries becoming almost God-like.

If I buy a CD, or DVD, I want to be able to use it as I feel like using it. I'm not talking about burning copies and selling them on the street corner. I want to play my DVD on my computer, or my 5-year old DVD player, without loosing anything due to DRM. If I want to play the DVD over spdif, optical, or even analog audio, I've already bought the equipment and should have the right to do that as I see fit.
 
InorganicMatter said:
Wow, all you Microsoft bashers are so closed-minded and not considering the least what these things are implemented for. Let me clarify this: everything Microsoft has implemented is REQUIRED to play back HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content. There are only two choices here, either Microsoft implements these features and you can enjoy next-gen material, or Microsoft can skip it and completely lock out all next-gen media.

Would you rather no DRM, and therefore no HD media playback?!? I DIDN'T THINK SO!!!
Click to expand...

I've got news for you bub. I don't watch DVDs on my computer. NO interest. But I get to pay higher hardware and software development costs so YOU can. The new Vista is way bloated with alot of crap I don't need or want. I don't like having intrusive DRM forced down my throat. MS should have shipped a vanilla no-DRM/HD playback version and those who want it can download it (for a fee perhaps). Vista looks to be way too intrusive for my taste. I'm probably going to have to try Linux when I can no longer run what I want to on the "obselete but not full of Hollywood-DRM crap"...great job, MS.
 
farscapesg1 said:
Personally, I don't blame Microsoft for taking the route that they have. Do I agree with it, no. However, they are a business and as such have to work within the certain constraints.

Now, what I do have a problem with is people that go on and on along the lines of "those who are complaining about DRM are stupid". I'm sorry, I don't agree with DRM. I personally think that companies,individuals, and the government should stand up to the RIAA/MPAA and tell them to "back off". I get really tired of the attitude of "Microsoft is just doing what it is supposed to to be compliant". There is WAY too much compliancy going around resulting in the media industries becoming almost God-like.

If I buy a CD, or DVD, I want to be able to use it as I feel like using it. I'm not talking about burning copies and selling them on the street corner. I want to play my DVD on my computer, or my 5-year old DVD player, without loosing anything due to DRM. If I want to play the DVD over spdif, optical, or even analog audio, I've already bought the equipment and should have the right to do that as I see fit.
Click to expand...

DRM is morally neutral. It is amoral, just like jellybeans or a gun. It has legitimate uses, and it's got stupid uses. It's the MPAA or RIAA that are trying to use this tool to further their greed.

I'm not saying that the MPAA's use of DRM in this situation is a good thing. Actually, I'm not trying to say anything about Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, or AACS. I'm just trying to stop this FUD that people keep spreading about Vista.
 
Bill Clo said:
I've got news for you bub. I don't watch DVDs on my computer. NO interest. But I get to pay higher hardware and software development costs so YOU can. The new Vista is way bloated with alot of crap I don't need or want. I don't like having intrusive DRM forced down my throat. MS should have shipped a vanilla no-DRM/HD playback version and those who want it can download it (for a fee perhaps). Vista looks to be way too intrusive for my taste. I'm probably going to have to try Linux when I can no longer run what I want to on the "obselete but not full of Hollywood-DRM crap"...great job, MS.
Click to expand...

Nothing is being shoved down your throat. I'm using Vista right now, to type this post, and the DRM isn't affecting you. If you don't want to use Vista to play HD content, then don't do it!

Windows has always shipped with a lot of features that most people (outside this forum) don't use. These can include the command line, remote desktop, or any number of powertoys you can download. They don't impact performance for being there, and they might come in handy some day. It's the same with the DRM - it supports it if you ever want to use it someday, but otherwise, it stays out of your way.

You can't even make the argument that Vista costs more because of the DRM, because it's debuting at the same prices as XP did.
 
Araanor said:
Microsoft has screwed up majorly here. They could've put their foot down and molded the direction to something more palatable, but instead, they really enjoyed the thought of the control all this DRM and "additional functionality" could give them over users.
Click to expand...
Nope, it doesn't work that way. You see, we have this law called the "DMCA" that, no matter how retarded you think it is, must be followed. According to the DMCA, you are a criminal if you bypass or help bypass media copy protection. If Vista supported HD media, but not AACS, they would be in violation of the DMCA, and therefore subject to the due punishment of the law.

BoogerBomb said:
The problem with staying away from protected content is that ALL content is protected, there is no such this as non-protected content. Even cd's on Vista that werent made with content protection will now have it.
Click to expand...
You have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Please do some research on technology and the law before you spout off your Microsoft-hating angsty posts. Thank you.
 
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