Vista and DRM

D

Digital Cro-Magnon

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
194
I was curious if anyone has come across issues related to DRM in Vista such as:

Inability to record or play HD content at full resolution
Inability to play or recordSACD (super Audio CD) content.

From the way I understand it, a lot of hardware just won't work well with HD content in Vista. For example, if you have a NV7900GTX, you can't play HD content with it on a Vista PC, due to its lack of HDCP compliant connectors. In addition, if your monitor is not HDCP compliant, you are out of luck.

I am not looking to start a raging flame war, just curious on the impact and if anyone has experienced this.

Here are some references:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html


Political DRM Thoughts:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa564.pdf

Thanks,
 
sigh not again...:mad:

Notice the word "again"? Means its been discussed toooooo many times. Please use search before you post.
 
ARRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Tension breaker, simply had to be done.

:rolleyes:
 
Even though this horse has been thoroughly beaten:

New DRM features *ARE* going to be included in HD and Blu-ray discs regardless of Vista. Let me repeat. Vista has nothing to do with the DRM included with HD content.

Now, with that in mind, HD DVD player and Blu-ray player manufacturers will need to support the DRM schemas in order to correctly play content.

Ok, here's where Microsoft Vista comes in. Microsoft decided to SUPPORT HD DVD and Blu-ray DRM schemas so that you can play HD content at full resolution! What does the DRM scheme involve? Check wikipedia... HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc

Vista does not add any evil DRM. Vista does not prevent you from watching HD content at full resolution. Vista merely complies with the specifications as laid out by the Blu-ray / HD DVD stakeholders.

Your monitor isn't HDCP compliant? Well then you aren't going to be watching full-resolution HD DVDs or Blu-ray DVDs whether the source is a Vista PC or a home-electronics player.

Do you understand why this has nothing to do with Vista yet?
 
Digital Cro-Magnon said:
From the way I understand it
Click to expand...

You misunderstand it.

DRM/encryption is built in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray for ANY OS to legally play encrypted HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content the OS and HARDWARE must support DRM. This is a requirement of the content providers not MS.

Vista ONLY reduces resolution if required by the content provider.

If your monitor is not HDCP compliant you will not be able to legally view any full resolution commercial protected HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on ANY system this is again a requirement of the content providers not MS.

Microsoft had a choice… either to legally let their users be able to access protected commercial HD content or to not allow them to view protected commercial HD. If Apple wants to play HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on their computers they will include similar DRM in OSX… and the will do exactly that.
 
Max Mike said:
DRM/encryption is built in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray for ANY OS to legally play encrypted HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content the OS and HARDWARE must support DRM.
Click to expand...
I have read this sentence multiple times. Even after the fourth time, its meaning eludes me. Would someone please explain it to me?
 
Nice post Space-CaveMan......Never say a thread with the title Vista and DRM here before :rolleyes:
 
drizzt81 said:
I have read this sentence multiple times. Even after the fourth time, its meaning eludes me. Would someone please explain it to me?
Click to expand...

I think he just illegibly rephrased my post.

Just read back to my post - it covers everything he was attempting to state and then some.


What the heck, I'll fix it for him.

broken
DRM/encryption is built in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray for ANY OS to legally play encrypted HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content the OS and HARDWARE must support DRM.
Click to expand...

fixed
DRM/encryption is built-in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. For ANY OS to legally play encrypted HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content, both the OS and HARDWARE must support the DRM scheme.
Click to expand...
 
drizzt81 said:
I have read this sentence multiple times. Even after the fourth time, its meaning eludes me. Would someone please explain it to me?
Click to expand...

DRM/encryption is built in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray by design, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are designed to be encrypted with DRM required for playback.

For a computer to play commercial protected (encrypted) HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content at full resolution or even at all the:

Hardware… computer drive, video card, monitors
OS… Windows, OSX, Linux, whatever
Playback software

All of the above must comply with the DRM requirements set up for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray by the manufactures and content providers.

If the Hardware, OS, and playback software do not support the DRM requirements set down by the content provider the content will not play at full resolution or at all if that is what the content provider wishes. The content must then be cracked/hacked (illegal under US law) to play.

Microsoft really had little choice in this matter if they wanted their users to be able to legally view protected HD content. Apple will do the same.
 
I am not saying that this is the fault of MS or Vista per se. It is that MS is the creator of the world's most popular OS's, which means I could get thoughtful comments from the large user base and community. Instead, I get a bunch of unproductive commentary.

You misunderstand it.

DRM/encryption is built in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray for ANY OS to legally play encrypted HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content the OS and HARDWARE must support DRM. This is a requirement of the content providers not MS.
Click to expand...

You just reiterated, in different words, what I originally stated. So, you misunderstood that I misunderstood it.;) Basically, I stated, if you don't have HDCP compliant hardware, you are out of luck and the $2000 30" Apple monitor you bought last year can't be used to play HD content, even though it is more than capable.

Also, I am not implying that DRM is evil. It is mere technology, neither good nor evil. Although it can stifle competition in the market place, which will ultimately effect the consumer (i.e. All of us).

I guess this post could have gone to a more general forum heading, but I wanted to post it in the OS heading because Vista is the first major OS to come out with the DRM rules in play.
 
Digital Cro-Magnon said:
You just reiterated, in different words, what I originally stated. So, you misunderstood that I misunderstood it.;) Basically, I stated, if you don't have HDCP compliant hardware, you are out of luck and the $2000 30" Apple monitor you bought last year can't be used to play HD content, even though it is more than capable.

Also, I am not implying that DRM is evil. It is mere technology, neither good nor evil. Although it can stifle competition in the market place, which will ultimately effect the consumer (i.e. All of us).

I guess this post could have gone to a more general forum heading, but I wanted to post it in the OS heading because Vista is the first major OS to come out with the DRM rules in play.
Click to expand...


Quoted. This topic has had me chuckling.

If I understand it correctly, the topic is merely asking if the DRM inclusions work as they are purported to, for people who are actually using it to play back protected content. The topic is not querying the inclusion of DRM technoloogies in the OS.


I'll reiterate the question:

Does the technology work seamlessly, as it is supposed to, for protected content? I know damn well it doesn't intrude on non-protected content, but I don't have the gear or media here to try out the new stuff so I'd like to hear reports.

:D
 
Thank You Catweazle.

I would like to have productive ideas here not just flaming.

Also, did anyone read the link I posted to start this thread? I am interested in peoples reaction to that as well.

Thanks again to all posters and again I would not like to have a raging fire here.:D
 
calebb said:
What the heck, I'll fix it for him.
Click to expand...

Max Mike said:
DRM/encryption is built in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray by design, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are designed to be encrypted with DRM required for playback.

For a computer to play commercial protected (encrypted) HD-DVD and Blu-Ray content at full resolution or even at all the:

Hardware… computer drive, video card, monitors
OS… Windows, OSX, Linux, whatever
Playback software

All of the above must comply with the DRM requirements set up for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray by the manufactures and content providers.
Click to expand...

Thanks to both of you for fixing it. It makes sense now.
Max Mike said:
If the Hardware, OS, and playback software do not support the DRM requirements set down by the content provider the content will not play at full resolution or at all if that is what the content provider wishes. The content must then be cracked/hacked (illegal under US law) to play.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, I get it. Thank you for the explanation.
 
Digital Cro-Magnon said:
I am not saying that this is the fault of MS or Vista per se. It is that MS is the creator of the world's most popular OS's, which means I could get thoughtful comments from the large user base and community. Instead, I get a bunch of unproductive commentary.



You just reiterated, in different words, what I originally stated. So, you misunderstood that I misunderstood it.;) Basically, I stated, if you don't have HDCP compliant hardware, you are out of luck and the $2000 30" Apple monitor you bought last year can't be used to play HD content, even though it is more than capable.

Also, I am not implying that DRM is evil. It is mere technology, neither good nor evil. Although it can stifle competition in the market place, which will ultimately effect the consumer (i.e. All of us).

I guess this post could have gone to a more general forum heading, but I wanted to post it in the OS heading because Vista is the first major OS to come out with the DRM rules in play.
Click to expand...

Well I thought you initially indicated that DRM issues were with Vista when they really are not but are a requirement of the content providers, sorry if I misunderstood.

As far as the first major OS to come out with widely used DRM rules that would be OSX and iTunes not Vista. iTunes sole purpose was/is a DRM scheme to lock content to Apple hardware (iPod).
 
Digital Cro-Magnon said:
You just reiterated, in different words, what I originally stated. So, you misunderstood that I misunderstood it.;) Basically, I stated, if you don't have HDCP compliant hardware, you are out of luck and the $2000 30" Apple monitor you bought last year can't be used to play HD content, even though it is more than capable.
Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with Vista.

Going back to your original post

From the way I understand it, a lot of hardware just won't work well with HD content in Vista. For example, if you have a NV7900GTX, you can't play HD content with it on a Vista PC, due to its lack of HDCP compliant connectors. In addition, if your monitor is not HDCP compliant, you are out of luck.
Click to expand...

This is not isolated to Vista, you could substitute Vista for XP, OSX, Linux, etc in that sentence and the the situation would not change.

For instance...

From the way I understand it, a lot of hardware just won't work well with HD content in XP. For example, if you have a NV7900GTX, you can't play HD content with it on a XP PC, due to its lack of HDCP compliant connectors. In addition, if your monitor is not HDCP compliant, you are out of luck.
Click to expand...

...is just as true.
 
Can we restrict this to High definition video and audio DRM features which are new additions to the Windows platform please, rather than engage in a pissing contest about DRM in general? Windows has had DRM technologies included since the early days of the XP lifecycle.
 
Who uses a 30" Display for HD content whan that is what your HiDef TV and Home Theater is made :)

I use my 30" for gaming and porn and nothing else
 
Max Mike said:
DRM/encryption is built in to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray by design, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are designed to be encrypted with DRM required for playback.
Click to expand...

Does this mean that once writers for the two formats are released, any videos people burn to 'em for their mates to watch (completely disregarding the legality or not of said videos for the purpose of this discussion), the home user has absolutely no choice but to encrypt their video that they (hopefully) own rights to and want to share?
 
The bottom line is, if Vista didn't have DRM (or any other operating system). You couldn't use your computer to watch HD video legally. period. Vista having DRM is good for the end user (and I'm not gonna get in to whether or not it was implemented well I'm merely saying its existence is necessary). The above also only applies to HD content which is protected since unprotected content doesn't use the DRM features in Vista and thus will play at w/e the hell resolution you want it to.

The argument could be made that Microsoft could have made a stand against DRM and said no, no way, which *MAY* (unlikely) have caused the IP holders to consider a different method of protecting content, but they could have also told Microsoft to go take a flying leap, who knows.
 
alan.p said:
Does this mean that once writers for the two formats are released, any videos people burn to 'em for their mates to watch (completely disregarding the legality or not of said videos for the purpose of this discussion), the home user has absolutely no choice but to encrypt their video that they (hopefully) own rights to and want to share?
Click to expand...

No. If the content on the disc isn't encrypted (it doesn't have to be and a home movie or user generated content wouldn't be), DRM features don't' activate and the playback goes in w/e resolution the original was recorded in.
 
Has anyone tried older versions of PC HDTV devices and get then to playback HD TV on Vista (at 1080i)? By older versions, I mean hardware bought last year and earlier.
 
that $2000 apple cinema display i would hope has a lot more uses for you than just watching movies - you can get a 72" tv for that! :)
 
iroc409 said:
that $2000 apple cinema display i would hope has a lot more uses for you than just watching movies - you can get a 72" tv for that! :)
Click to expand...

I am an eXtreme Gamer that loves to play high resolution, I surf the web two pages at a time with music playing, and other stuff, and I will watch a DvD tv show once in awhile on it
 
i was just making a point - arguing that a $2000 display is useless because the OS doesn't play DRM-protected materials correctly is mostly irrelevant; especially to users on this board. ;)
 
devman said:
TYou couldn't use your computer to watch HD video legally.
Click to expand...
While it may seem that compliance with Blu-Ray/ HD-DVD is the only ``legal'' way to watch HD content in the USA, I would not put my faith in that. Surely, it is the only way that content providers would like you, the consumer, to see. Whether there are other legal ways it likely going to be argued in court at some point within the next few years.

There are quite a few exceptions that the DMCA provides for me to ``develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure [...] for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs''. From my understanding, I can write a program that will interface my DRM-free hd-video player software to the DRM encrypted stream. In particular, I would argue that I am exercising my fair-use right, which is not affected by this act, according to section (c)(1).

I know it is easy to give into believing that content providers' interpretation of what is legal is the correct one, especially since they have the deeper pockets, which usually means that they are correct. Irrespective of this, I do not see how DRM is benefiting the consumer. As the consumer, the increased cost for more complex hardware and more complex software comes out of my wallet, while the value added is for the content provider. I am having a hard time understanding why I am footing the bill for their increased profits.

see:
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/1201.html
/me waits patiently for everyone to call me a pirate...
 
I'm familiar with fair use precedent, and I agree we should be able to play our media on w/e player display we want at advertised resolution. DRM as a whole is one big sack of crap, however the point I was making is that DRM in Vista is a necessary evil, because if MS didn't cooperate with it then the only recourse would be to crack the media if you wanted full resolution on your Vista PC.
 
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