Venturing into the unknown- Watercooling

T

tom736928

Weaksauce
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
126
I'm planning to put together an open chassis concept, i'll be doing a specific colour theme...red uni sleeves from mdpc and all those beautiful magic.

I'm new to watercooling, and have been the "air cooler" guy for many years.

The Primary reason is am going with watercool is pure aesthetic value, i know it defeats the purpose of watercooling, but i will most probably not be doing any OC anytime soon.Secondary purpose is that it's been months since i've been using the 5970,i love the performance but the noise output is unbearable. Setup used will be for general gaming and surfing the net, it doesn't have to be dead silent though, but of course it would be a plus.

Hardware that will be used.

Processor: i7 920

MB: EVGA X58 SLI LE
PSU: Seasonic x750w
Video Card: Sapphire HD 5970 OC Edition
Case: Dangerden Torture Rack

Pump: Not too sure which pump would suit my needs

Reservoir: EK-MultiOption 4 Port RES 150 Rev. 2 Liquid Cooling Reservoir
Bitspower Water Tank Z-Multi 150 Inline Reservoir
(you get the idea, this is roughly the design of the reservoir i'll be going for, Rounded shaped)

Radiator: Black Ice GT Stealth 240 Radiator - Red (Theres 2 version of this,more on this below)

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5...Stealth_240_Radiator_-_Red.html?tl=g30c95s160

Radiator Fans: Scythe GentleTyphoon 1850

Tubing: I do not have a specific brand in mind, but ill be buying the red coloured ones, hopefully blood red .
Clamps: Wide band self-tightening (carbon steel with black zinc rich plating)

CPU Block: Koolance CPU-360 Liquid Cooling Extreme CPU Block - Rev. 1.1
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...Rev_11_No_Fittings_.html?tl=g30c325s839#blank

GPU Block:Koolance VID-AR597 (Radeon HD 5970)
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1..._Block_Rev_2_No_Fittings.html?tl=g30c309s1072

Coolant: Distilled water with PT Nuke / silverkillcoil , not too sure if i need silverkillcoil if im not using any dyes though, or the fact that if PT Nuke and silverkillcoil runs together safely.

Here is the question

1. Fans: So far the fans that i have in mind is either the gentle typhoons 1850 or the 1450 .

2. Radiator: Is 1 loop enough for my setup , or do you think i should get 2 loops. I will be watercooling only the CPU(i7 920) and GPU(5970). Reservoir -> Pump -> Radiator -> CPU Block -> GPU block -> Reservoir ? For my scenario whereby no OC would take place, do i really need 2 seperate loops for CPU and GPU? Ill be running 120.2 radiator if single loops is allowed for my setup.

As far as i know, for the dangerden torture rack can house 2x 240 Radiator
I will be using this radiator as i posted above,primary goal of this watercool setup is aesthetic value(no OC).
Whats the difference between this 2 particular model ?

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5...Stealth_240_Radiator_-_Red.html?tl=g30c95s160

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5071/ex-rad-95/Black_Ice_GT_Stealth_240_X-Flow_Radiator_-_Red.html

3: Reservoir: There are many sizes of reservoir in terms of volume, basically the higher the volume = the longer your loops will go, is this correct? For a setup like mine, how much is enough ? I've read forums aboout how the T-lines should always be on the top of the casing, does this method apply if i were to use the reservoir instead?Am i able to place the reservoir Horizontally/Vertically in any desired place i want?

4: Fluid. I have decided to run distilled water with perhaps PT nuke or silverkillcoil (is it even safe to run them both together ? )

5: Tubing and clamps. It seems that different waterblocks use different tubing sizes. I'm pretty confused by the vast amount of different fittings out there.For the fittings i've looked through several companies that sells them, i'm looking closely at bits power black matte finished barb fittings. It seems that there is also the quick connect versions of these fittings, i still do not know how they really operate so if anyone could give me an input on this i'd appreciate. For tubings i have decided to run blood red coloured tubings , if anyone could introduce me a red coloured tubings that have been reputable among the enthusiast.

6: Pumps: As for this, i am clueless at which i should be going for, a low noise pump that could fit my loop would be great.

7: Waterblocks: I've read this on a watercooling guide and tips on another forum, one of it being said that i should not buy waterblocks with acrylic on top as they will crack eventually, is this true? As i know that EK is quite a reputable company and their cpu waterblock seems to be using acrylic on the top. Do let me know if you strongly recommend me a specific waterblock for the CPU / GPU as i am new to watercooling. It's alright if i do not include Chipset / MOSFET Blocks right ? I've also read that it is not a good idea to have different materials for the different waterblocks like copper cpu block with aluminium gpu block or something like that, will i be safe if i were to use particular koolance CPU-360 waterblock and Koolance 5970 GPU block together ?

Lastly,is there any parts I'm missing for the setup required ?

I apologize if you feel that i am not doing enough homework before posting.Thank you all in advance for any help you can offer.
 
Last edited:
I can't answer all your questions, but I went water cooling for noise as well - my last computer had a pair of 8800 GTX GPUs, and for them to be stable the fans had to be jacked up to 100%. Very annoying.

2. One loop should be fine; I'm running one loop, and its working great. Separate loops keep heat from one device adding to another, but I don't think you need to worry about this unless you plan on extreme overclocking.

The difference between those two radiators is where the nozzles are located.

3. I'm using a Koolance RP-1000, which is a single 5.25 bay pump/reservior combo. I think it is a really neat, easy solution, with a fairly powerful pump. The relatively small size of the reservior means that you'll need to potentially run the loop and fill it at the same time (you can jumper your motherboard to only run the pump, without turning the computer on, in order to fill your loop and test for leaks without the computer on.)

4. I don't know, I just used Koolance high performance fluid, its blue, and clear tubing.

5. I recently added a couple of Koolance quick-disconnects, and if you can fit these in your system, they are really handy if you have to disconnect a component. A lot of waterblocks should come with fairly standard G 1/4" threading, so most nozzles should screw into them. I've used barbs, but I prefer Koolance's compression nozzles. I had a bad experience with barbs, but a lot of people use them, so maybe I just screwed up.

6. I noted my pump above.

7. I think you can safely skip the chipset block.

I'm looking at some upgrades myself at the moment, including a Koolance control board to control my Koolance pump and fans a bit better, and a flow sensor to monitor my pump's performance in case of problems.
 
Thanks for the reply balthazor, may i ask what are the differences between barb fittings and compression nozzles ? They look the same to me : /
 
No difference between barb and compression fittings, besides which ones you think look nicer. I personally prefer compression fittings, but went with barb fittings due to their lower price. Barb fittings can be used with any OD (outer diameter) tube as long as the ID (inner diameter) is the same, and the clamps are large enough (easily replaced with new clamps, on the order of 30 cents or less). Compression fittings can only be used with a certain ID and OD hose.

One loop is usually fine, the main point is your radiator, and whether or not it is enough to get rid of the heat. The GT Stealth has a high fin density, which means it will get rid of the heat will, but it would also require more powerful fans to do so. The Gentle Typhoons should be enough. The GT Stealth's really shine with high RPM fans (1800 rpm and up). Other radiator offerings do much better than the Stealth at lower RPM. The Stealth's cooling capacity drops dramatically when fan RPM's go below 1200 RPM or so, whereas other, lower fin density radiators do not experience the same drastic decrease in performance. Especially the thicker radiators, like the GTX radiators. Also, the X-flow design (where the nozzles are at opposite ends) tend to have lower restriction, allowing better flow.

Since you're using red tubing, you can just skip the dye and go with regular distilled water. Also, silver killcoils are great in the respect that you never have to replace them, where as with the PT Nuke you need to replace it each time you change your coolant.
 
Thanks for your input Tsumi, is it true that compression fittings = safer for water leakage proof compared to barb fittings ( where you need to use clamps ) , i've also noticed the huge gap of price difference between the 2 types of fittings.

So is my setup with a single Black Ice GT Stealth 240 Radiator with two 1850 GT good enough to dissipate the heat ? As for the GPU /CPU waterblock itself do you have any opinions on them ?

Regarding the silver killcoils , both PT Nuke and silverkillcoil does the same thing , right ? As anti-algae / anti-microbial

Lastly, for the tubings, is the PrimoFlex Pro LRT UV Red Tubing or Feser Tube Active UV Hose more superior ?
 
Last edited:
1) Fans - the quiet typhoons are quite popular because of their performance to noise ratio.
2) Without OCing, 1 loop should be alright. The temps aren't going to be stellar with a single stealth rad, but should be quiet and manageable.
3) The reservoir has little to do with the length of your watercooling system. That's more a function of your pump. You don't need a T-Line with most reservoirs unless it's an internal reservoir you can't fill from the outside and you want to. The point of the reservoir is to act as a bleed for the air, and makes sure your pump is supplied with water. Most reservoirs can only be placed in one way. Putting it in any other orientation tends to allow air into the line. A bay reservoir fits in a bay drive and is easy to use.
4) Running PT nuke with a silver kill coil is compatible, and a common combination. It gives the best thermal performance, and doesn't gunk up your lines.
5) Barbs have ridges to keep the line on, are a tighter fit, and tend to be longer then compression fittings. You can pair them with a clamp that exerts external pressure to keep them in place. Compression fittings have two parts. The inner part acts like a small barb. The outer part screws on and acts like a clamp. Tubing has an inner diameter (ID) and an outer diameter (OD). When using barbs, you only have to account for the inner diameter. Compression fittings have to have the right size for both diameters or they won't fit properly. I personally like 3/8 tubing with 5/8 outer diameter, but other sizes are popular as well - 1/2 ID with 3/4 OD is probably most popular, along with 3/8 ID with 1/2 OD. Red is an uncommon tubing color, but I've used it in the past.
Tygon is my favorite tubing, but they don't make red to my knowledge. Here's the red I ended up using:
http://www.jab-tech.com/PrimoFlex-Pro-LRT-UV-Red-Tubing-3-8in.-ID-x-5-8in.-OD-pr-4114.html
And I paired it with matt black compressions from bitspower:
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/bimabl3cofif.html

6) the 3.25 is a pretty small but fairly quiet pump, and is very strong. It's the same as the one recommended on the other posts, minus the other koolance equipment:
http://www.jab-tech.com/Laing-DDC-3.25-12V-18-Watt-Version-pr-4464.html
paired with this:
http://www.jab-tech.com/XSPC-Acrylic-Reservoir-for-Laing-DDC-pr-4123.html
and you won't need to worry about your reservoir.

7) You want to avoid mixing aluminum with copper. However, no parts you listed have aluminum. They sometimes used it in radiators, but have pretty much gotten away from that. The koolance 360 got good reviews, although not my preference. I prefer the EK blocks (though they aren't always covered in acrylic, you can get them in acetal as well, and the cpu blocks come with solid tops as well). For the cpu, I like the full copper EK supreme HF:
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...9_940_771_754_AM2_AM2_AM3.html?tl=g30c323s828
*note - if you get this one and you use compressions, make sure you get one angled rotary, as it won't fit two 1/2 compressions side by side.
And for the GPU, I like:
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...lock_-_Acrylic_EK-FC5970.html?tl=g30c309s1072
Admittingly, it's because they are top performers that match so well. (koolance cpu block is a top performer, but the matching part isn't).
And no, you don't have to watercool your motherboard blocks, and most would recommend to avoid doing so.

Also, don't forget thermal compound.

Edit: Both can leak when not handled correctly, and you actually can mess up compressions easier. You want to screw the bard down till the O-ring is completely hidden with both. After you bring the tubing down to the shoulder with the compression, you tighten the ring hand tight. The gap in pricing is due to the additional material and machines needed to make the outer piece, and most likely the greater looks.. On barbs you have the clamps on the outside, which don't tend to look as good.
PT Nuke and silver kill coils do the same thing. A lot of people double up for safety.
 
Last edited:
Shiny , thank you for your reply , appreciate it : )

2) By stellar will the performance stilll be better than aircooling ? Else i might just go for 2 loops

5) Based on your experience, do you prefer the compression or barb fittings , and which would you recommend for a complete beginner in watercooling ?

As for thermal compound i have the thermalright cf3 ready for the cpu and gpu core

I'm gonna be reading more regarding which tubing size i should go for.
 
Nozzle depths can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer; the threading is usually standard G 1/4, but the depth of the threading varies.

Just be careful if using long threaded nozzles with short threaded blocks; if you screw it in too much you'll cut off flow.
 
Alright , after more reading , i think i have a general idea on how my tubings and fittings will go .

Say , PrimoChill PrimoFlex PRO LRT Tubing 1/2"ID 3/4"OD with 1/8" Wall - UV Red with the Bitspower Ultimate G 1/4 Thread 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD Compression Fitting - Matte Black .

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/7...34OD_with_18_Wall_-_UV_Red.html?tl=g30c99s172

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...Black_BP-MBCPF-CC5.html?tl=g30c409s1033#blank

Am i on the right track ? In your opinion , would you rather go for compression fittings or brab fittings ? I value aesthetic , however, i'd rather stick to the safer side if things tends to fail, i understand that it would most probably be human error though.

PS: Based on the pictures shown on the frozen cpu website , the Bitspower Ultimate G 1/4 Thread 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD Compression Fitting - Matte Black seems to have short threaded nozzles, is it safe to lets say , connect that to the koolant 360 cpu block ?
 
2) It's hard to say. If you were overclocking, definitely, but at stock speeds, probably a bit better then air cooling. High end air cooling is usually equal to low end watercooling (low end as in heat dissipation, not budget). The stealth rads specifically are thinner, so they don't dissipate as much heat. If you put in an SR1 240 of a Thermochill PA 12.2 instead, you'll have better performance at those fan speeds.
If I were in your shoes, I'd probably go with a good single 120x2 radiator (like the two I listed), and then look at my temps. If they were higher then I'd like, I'd add another 120x1 radiator to the loop. Between the two, they'd definitely handle your gear at stock speed. As it is, I think the single 120x2 radiator, if it was a good performer, should probably do it.
5) I use compressions now, probably will from here on in. They are easier to work with when changing your components often. Barbs are very easy to use, so I usually recommend them to the beginner, plus they cost a whole lot less.
Of course, there's no reason you couldn't go compression. You just have to be careful to make sure each piece is put on right. Most of the leaks with compression barbs happen in one of two ways - 1) the barb isn't down tight enough (if you can see any O-ring from the side, it'll leak). 2) the tubing isn't down snugly to the shoulder of the compression fitting and/or there is pulling on the tubing (if the tubing gets loose, of course it'll leak). Just make sure the tubing is down correctly and there isn't any pressure pulling the tubing away.
You can test your gear off your board - you put a paper clip on the motherboard connector (you can look it up on the internet for more directions on bypassing). That's about as safe as you can get. If you run the loop leak free away from the board, you'll be fine when you put it in the system.

The bitspower matte black compressions have a short enough thread to fit just about any cpu block without cutting it off - you'll be fine with the 360 block.
 
Last edited:
I would actually go for 4 gentle typhoon 1850 RPM fans in a push-pull configuration on your GT Stealth. That would give you much better performance than just 2 fans, due to the high fin density, and not add too much to noise. The fans in push-pull add pressure, allowing more air to be forced through the radiator. You should see some pretty good temps if you go this route. Not great, a 2x120mm radiator isn't quite enough to cool an i7 and HD5970, but fairly good. You would probably see the temps the same as they were on air cooling, but you'll have a quieter computer (due to the stock fan on the HD5970 being removed).

If you have limited space in your case, go for 3/8" ID tubing, preferably 1/2" OD. This is one of the most common sizes, and will bend better than 1/2" tubing, and costs less. If you have lots of space, you can opt for 1/2" ID tubing, with 5/8" OD. Doesn't bend as well, but you have larger tubing. However, there really is not too much of a difference between 3/8" ID and 1/2" ID. You want to avoid 1/4" ID tubing, as those are very restrictive.

Both types of fittings are about the same level of complexity. Compression fittings are usually more convenient when you're constantly removing your tubing for whatever reason, since clamps can be somewhat of a pain to get off.
 
Hey shiny / tsumi , i think im pretty down to the black ice gtstealth 240 - red as the regular black would not match to my red coloured open chassis concept.

Btw when we speak of 2 loops , it means that i will be using only a pump , the same reservoir , just that the radiator is 2 instead of 1 , correct ?

As for the tubing size, i think i'm down with PrimoChill PrimoFlex PRO LRT Tubing 1/2"ID 3/4"OD with 1/8" Wall - UV Red with the Bitspower Ultimate G 1/4 Thread 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD Compression Fitting - Matte Black , do you guys have anything to say regarding this ?

PS: I'm open to different fans too , as long as they are not loud and works well with radiators.
 
2 loops usually means two of everything - pump, radiator, and res if you use it. Some reservoirs are able to separate the two loops already, but if you use the same pump and/or res, your pretty much just doing a single loop with some parts doubled up. The advantage of using two loops is that each block (usually the gpu is one block, cpu on another) has it's own dedicated system, and heat from the one doesn't go to the other. I haven't really found much advantage in this, as the total temp tends to even out.
Adding a second radiator is just expanding the loop, which is good.
I agree with tsumi in that 4 fans with push pull are better then 2 (but that's pretty obvious), just like adding a shroud is better then not having one. However, it'll depend on your space. Also a given, but 4 fans are going to be louder then 2.
it's a fine combination, should work alright (the tubing/compression parts).

Looking at the torture rack - you have a lot of space to put radiators. Looks like you can easily put another 120x2 steath rad on the other side, and that would assure you solid performance without adding much noise. You'd just fit it into the loop:
reservoir -> pump -> radiator -> cpu block -> gpu block -> radiator -> reservoir
*you don't actually have to order it like this, i'm just showing you how you could chain the other radiator

Edit: As for the eheim, while it is a fine pump in it's own right, it's more then you need, a bit big, and is AC powered (you'll have to plug it externally instead of into your psu).
 
Hmm , okay , i don't think i would want 2 loops usually means two of everything , i dont really want to spend that much amount of money just for performance that i wont be needing. Lets say i were to go with reservoir -> pump -> radiator -> cpu block -> gpu block -> radiator -> reservoir , would temp difference be alot compared to just a single radiator ? Also, why is it that 2 radiators is more silent than 1 radiator ?

Here's another newbie question : would condensation ever occur ? :/
 
Not more silent, just about the same - still 4 pumps. Your total thermal dissipation would be double, which should be more then you even need (though better to go over then under, right). The temps should be lower then high end air cooling can go at all. The main thing I think both tsumi and I were saying is that the limitation to your cooling would be the radiators. One probably isn't going to cool a 5970 and i7 to very low temps.
You can go one radiator first, and add the other one after you see how it performs. I don't find it too difficult to drain a system and add another part.
 
Alright shiny and tsumi , you both have been great help , i'll be going for a single loop with 2 radiator . These radiators comes with the neccessary mounting screw with it right ?

Radiator > Fans > Case . That's a pretty long screw that will be needed
 
You bolt the radiator to the case, and the fans to the radiator (2 separate sets of screws), unless you are doing push/pull - then you might need to get screws, not sure the radiator screws are long enough to go through the fan.

When bolting on the radiator, I like to but a credit card on the inside above the fins to prevent me from putting the screw into the tubing.
 
Ah , i get the idea now , thanks.

I've also read somewhere that i have to be careful when screwing the radiator to the case as i might punch through a hole or something , will definately need to take a good inspect when i get them hands on
 
If you actually go with the two radiator design, I would actually go with this configuration:

reservoir -> pump -> CPU block -> radiator -> GPU blocks -> radiator -> reservoir

That way, the GPU will also be getting cooled water, instead of heated water from the CPU. Just a personal preference, you probably will see cooler temps on the GPU versus the other orientation, but your CPU temps might be a bit higher.

Condensation is only an issue when the part you're cooling drops below room temperature. Water cooling by itself can only at most drop your parts to room temperature, so you don't have to worry about it. It is more of an issue with peltier cooling and phase-change cooling.
 
Okay I'll definately check it out. Speaking of which reminds me of distiller water,where can I buy them? Or is there some sort of distilled water made for watercooling? Sorry but my point is,are there a wide variety of distilled water out there that only a specific type may be used for watercooling.
 
Distilled water is distilled water. No additives, no minerals, nothing. You can get it at auto parts stores, and sometimes at gas stations.
 
If you can, you want at least one rad before the cpu block - as the pump does have a little heat dump. It's not a whole lot, but you might gain a degree or two.
 
Distilled water can usually be found at a lot of places. Grocery stores tend to carry them, as well as supermarkets. You can probably even find them at places like Target and Walmart. Remember to avoid deionized water, as that will corrode your water blocks and radiator.
 
btw, for tubing sizes , 1/2" ID > 7/16" > 3/8" > 1/4" in terms of sizes from thickest to thinnest right ? how many feets would be sufficient for a built like mine ?

As for 1/2 ID" 3/4 OD" tubings, if i were to u use them on the cpu block , lets say it were to not fit together as they are pretty fat, would this work ?

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...ree_G14_Adapter_BP-MB45R.html?tl=g30c101s1035

By placing that adapter on one of the threads, then connecting the usual 1/2 id 3/4 od compression fitting on it . Or is there a more practical way asides from using barbs.

Oh , 1 more quick question i have is that , with compression fittings , should i use a softer or harder tubings ?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=194958

Kink resistance
Best - Primoflex > Tygon > Feser

Stiffness
Hardest - Feser > Tygon 3606 > Primoflex

I'm not so concerned about kink resistance as i doubt i'll be doing close loops.


Lastly, for a reservoir like this, am i able to mount it horizontally ? Or reservoir like this can only mount vertically ?

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6...Liquid_Cooling_Reservoir.html?tl=g30c97#blank

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/9...nline_Reservoir_BP-WTZM150P-BK.html?tl=g30c97
 
Last edited:
btw, for tubing sizes , 1/2" ID > 7/16" > 3/8" > 1/4" in terms of sizes from thickest to thinnest right ? how many feets would be sufficient for a built like mine ?
Click to expand...
If not accounting for the wall thickness, yes.
As for how much to buy... On one hand you have a fairly small, tight case. However, you also don't have a lot of experience. 2 radiators, 2 blocks, a pump and a rez - I think can be done in 6-8 feet if you were very careful and made no mistakes. For safety sake, I'd buy 10-12 feet.
it were to not fit together as they are pretty fat, would this work ?
Click to expand...
That should do it. Alternately, they sell angled rotaries:
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1..._Black_BP-MB90R2LCPF-CC5.html?tl=g30c409s1033

should i use a softer or harder tubings ?
Click to expand...
From what i know, that doesn't really have a bearing on the compression. You'll get a very tight fit with the harder tubing, but going hand tight, you'll end up with close to the same seal either way. With 1/2 tubing, the stiffer tubing might be a pain to use.

for a reservoir like this, am i able to mount it horizontally ? Or reservoir like this can only mount vertically ?
Click to expand...
It's technically possible to mount it horizontally, but it would basically defeat the purpose. If mounted horizontally, you'd need an angled compression and fillport to fill it. Also, if you use the bottom ports, there won't be much room for the air - you can't get too much air into the rez that way, or it'll get sucked into the line and into the pump.
The second rez is an inline, meaning it connect directly to a pump normally. It works best with the D5 series.
 
Okay that should be it for now, till i get my hands on the goodies i'll ask for more help ! I'll also post some pics when things get going :) Thanks alot
 
Hey guys , some changes i made to the setup.

Pump: MCP355 + EK-DDC X-Top Rev2 (Space restriction from 655)
Res:Swiftech MCRES-Micro Rev2
CPU Block: Heatkiller Rev3.0 Full chrome limited edition (from sidewinder)
GPU Block: Decided to go for EK 5970 Acetal+ Nickel, need to wait for the next shipment of stock to be in !

Here goes some pics










I've actually completely sleeved the 24pin mobo cables , forgotten to take the photo before and after, will upload it some time later :p.

The EK pump top and all the BP Compression fittings should be here in a couple of days.
 
Last edited:
Just took a look at that torture rack case. Do you plan to run your system like an open bench or are you going to get the optional panels to close it up once you've got it all set up?
 
Hey vjc, i'll be getting the optional panels to close it up once i've got it all setup , as of now i'm still contacting Danderden as i would require a custom job for the top and front panel extended as the 5970 does not fit in the stock torture rack.
 
UPDATE: BP Compressions are here, very awesome looking and real TIGHT.







 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top