Valve's Statement On In-Game Item Trading

H

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
In 2011, we added a feature to Steam that enabled users to trade in-game items as a way to make it easier for people to get the items they wanted in games featuring in-game economies. Since then a number of gambling sites started leveraging the Steam trading system, and there’s been some false assumptions about our involvement with these sites. We’d like to clarify that we have no business relationships with any of these sites. We have never received any revenue from them. And Steam does not have a system for turning in-game items into real world currency.

These sites have basically pieced together their operations in two-part fashion. First, they are using the OpenID API as a way for users to prove ownership of their Steam accounts and items. Any other information they obtain about a user's Steam account is either manually disclosed by the user or obtained from the user’s Steam Community profile (when the user has chosen to make their profile public). Second, they create automated Steam accounts that make the same web calls as individual Steam users.

Using the OpenID API and making the same web calls as Steam users to run a gambling business is not allowed by our API nor our user agreements. We are going to start sending notices to these sites requesting they cease operations through Steam, and further pursue the matter as necessary. Users should probably consider this information as they manage their in-game item inventory and trade activity.
 
I'm glad Valve said something on the matter. Maybe people will see this and realize that it isn't Valve's fault in this case.

People will still blame them, though. The Valve hate circlejerk can be very strong sometimes.
 
Lifelite said:
These gambling sites needed to die, they were awful for the community and the scene.
Click to expand...
They're awful for every single gaming genre they exist in, especially MMO's. EVE also has a rather large problem with these and is probably going to get the focus put on it once these gambling lawsuits start happening with the CSGO skin sites.
 
I didn't know any of these gambling sites even existed so I had to read up on how they work. LOL if it isn't one of the shadiest business models I've ever heard of. Morally reprehensible is how I would describe it. These fucks along with (YES IT'S GAMBLING NO MATTER HOW YOU SUGARCOAT IT) fantasy sports sites like Draft Kings need to get pounded into the dust.
 
ryno9100 said:
I'm glad Valve said something on the matter. Maybe people will see this and realize that it isn't Valve's fault in this case.
Click to expand...
No one, not even me, the biggest Valve hater on these forums were saying Valve was at fault for the gambling that sprang up around their F2P games. What we were countering was this idea that Valve had no control over the gambling situation. Make no mistake, Valve has complete control over their in-game economies and could have put a stop to these sites two years ago. But they didn't. Because Valve doesn't do anything, or alter any of their anti-consumer polices, unless they get sued first or their competition forces their hand.
ryno9100 said:
People will still blame them, though. The Valve hate circlejerk can be very strong sometimes.
Click to expand...
Where is this "Valve hate circlejerk" you speak of"? The Internet worships Valve - going as far to refer to their CEO as a deity and PC gaming as a religion.

The Reality Distortion Field that surrounds Valve and Gabe Newell is more subversive than any cult of personality Steve Jobs cultivated. There is no such thing as a Valve hate circlejerk. Quite the opposite in fact.
 
Gweenz said:
I didn't know any of these gambling sites even existed so I had to read up on how they work. LOL if it isn't one of the shadiest business models I've ever heard of. Morally reprehensible is how I would describe it. These fucks along with (YES IT'S GAMBLING NO MATTER HOW YOU SUGARCOAT IT) fantasy sports sites like Draft Kings need to get pounded into the dust.
Click to expand...

I dabbled a bit with DraftKings during the previous NFL season and didn't see anything particularly off about it; I paid an entrance fee and if my picks did well I made some money. What's the problem?
 
crusty_juggler said:
But they didn't. Because Valve doesn't do anything, or alter any of their anti-consumer polices, unless they get sued first or their competition forces their hand.
Click to expand...

Like how they could have done a number of things to shut down the Pinion ads in TF2 that unscrupulous server operators used to farm ad revenue when players joined their servers. Could have disabled HTML in the MOTD, etc., but instead they waited until it was such a problem that it was ruining the new player "Quick Play" experience and then nuked community servers by disabling QP to community servers altogether.

There's certainly reasons to hate how Valve has handled their games in the last few years - whether that be with action or inaction.
 
crusty_juggler said:
No one, not even me, the biggest Valve hater on these forums were saying Valve was at fault for the gambling that sprang up around their F2P games. What we were countering was this idea that Valve had no control over the gambling situation. Make no mistake, Valve has complete control over their in-game economies and could have put a stop to these sites two years ago. But they didn't. Because Valve doesn't do anything, or alter any of their anti-consumer polices, unless they get sued first or their competition forces their hand.Where is this "Valve hate circlejerk" you speak of"? The Internet worships Valve - going as far to refer to their CEO as a deity and PC gaming as a religion.

The Reality Distortion Field that surrounds Valve and Gabe Newell is more subversive than any cult of personality Steve Jobs cultivated. There is no such thing as a Valve hate circlejerk. Quite the opposite in fact.
Click to expand...

I don't think you've frequented most social sites in the last couple of years. Steam may be praised as being the forefront of the "PC Master Race" but Valve has long been shit on for ignoring the crowd that built and supported them. They constantly offer no communication and leave us sitting in the dark with everything. It's apparent that they have decided to design a new game model that relies on micro transactions to keep siphoning money from the community to feed their random side projects.
 
Steve said:
We’d like to clarify that we have no business relationships with any of these sites. We have never received any revenue from them. And Steam does not have a system for turning in-game items into real world currency.
Click to expand...
This sounds like something a lawyer would say to a judge rather than what a community manager would say to his user base.

Valve is in full cover your ass mode it seems.
 
They don't have a way to turn in-game items into currency? I thought that is what this does in a roundabout way:

Steam Community :: Steam Community Market

I'm pretty sure I can use the money generated from that to buy game keys or other items that could be sold outside of the system for actual currency.

Oh well I'm sure they have a large enough legal staff to have thought about that along with whatever outside firms they hire to defend these lawsuits.
 
crusty_juggler said:
This sounds like something a lawyer would say to a judge rather than what a community manager would say to his user base.

Valve is in full cover your ass mode it seems.
Click to expand...
It's PR, like everything else.
TheGardenTool said:
I'm pretty sure I can use the money generated from that to buy game keys or other items that could be sold outside of the system for actual currency.

Oh well I'm sure they have a large enough legal staff to have thought about that along with whatever outside firms they hire to defend these lawsuits.
Click to expand...
Technically, they don't. It's you who do it after using their system. Kind of like a gun maker saying they don't have a system in their guns to spread an infectious disease. But then someone buys the gun and shoots a canister of an infectious disease.
 
pothb said:
Technically, they don't. It's you who do it after using their system. Kind of like a gun maker saying they don't have a system in their guns to spread an infectious disease. But then someone buys the gun and shoots a canister of an infectious disease.
Click to expand...

They just don't offer a way to directly withdraw it as currency. It's more like a gift card once it is in the Steam Wallet or whatever they call it. Regardless I was pointing out the response said they only offer ways to trade not buy and sell. Check the link I posted above and it clearly says "Buy and sell items". This isn't some 3rd party using the API as they seem to suggest how it's possible.
 
Funny how they leap into action after being sued. They should have been going after these sites ages ago. Or, at least, made some half-assed attempt at telling them to stop. Either way, at least they're doing something. I expected Valve to pretend nothing is wrong like they do with almost every other issue they're presented with.
 
I personally think they shouldn't have to. If they were featuring it, then yea, but they were unaffiliated.
TheGardenTool said:
They just don't offer a way to directly withdraw it as currency. It's more like a gift card once it is in the Steam Wallet or whatever they call it. Regardless I was pointing out the response said they only offer ways to trade not buy and sell. Check the link I posted above and it clearly says "Buy and sell items". This isn't some 3rd party using the API as they seem to suggest how it's possible.
Click to expand...
Ah. That is slightly different then. At work, can't read gaming related stuff.
 
The really interesting thing is Youtubers are behind some of this.
I don't follow any of them because I think what they do is unimportant. I never saw the joy in watching other people play scripted parts of a game with intentional annoyance.
 
pothb said:
I personally think they shouldn't have to. If they were featuring it, then yea, but they were unaffiliated.
Click to expand...

According to Valve themselves the Steam OpenID policies expressly forbid what the gambling sites were doing. At that point it's on them to deal with it when they find out. Also, you'd think Valve wouldn't want people making several million dollars off of their IPs without them getting a cut.
 
Oh, I'm not saying they shouldn't. If for nothing else, but that the site was misrepresented by the youtubers and seems to have the game skewed in their favor. But that they shouldn't have to.
 
If all this illegal gambling is taking place why are companies being sued? If you are partaking of said illegal activity you are breaking the law just as much as the gambling site/operator. These people asking for money should be laughed at and thrown in jail also. They broke the law just as the site owners. Both parties should be shut down. The justice system is so flawed that these guys will get millions of dollars tho. Valve may or may not have known this was going on. I'll wait until I read more on this.
 
The typical series of events... :p (open to revision)

Enterprising individual(s) realize way to make money.
Said individual(s) setup semi-shady, probably legal mechanism to rake in the dough!
'People' get their undergarments in a twist for various reasons, justified or not.
Corporation is forced to respond due to outcry to protect their image.
Corporation is forced to burden the expense of modifying their product(s) accordingly.
Another American Dream is crushed by the weight of media and social reaction...

I just thought it was ironic, since there are many stories of enterprising individuals who performed acts in the 'stone age' or capitalism (READ: ~1880s-1940s) before a lot of laws were created that stifled the same type of behaviour for later generations, who if performed the same acts today would be bending or breaking laws.
 
Inacurate said:
The typical series of events... :p (open to revision)

Enterprising individual(s) realize way to make money.
Said individual(s) setup semi-shady, probably legal mechanism to rake in the dough!
'People' get their undergarments in a twist for various reasons, justified or not.
Corporation is forced to respond due to outcry to protect their image.
Corporation is forced to burden the expense of modifying their product(s) accordingly.
Another American Dream is crushed by the weight of media and social reaction...

I just thought it was ironic, since there are many stories of enterprising individuals who performed acts in the 'stone age' or capitalism (READ: ~1880s-1940s) before a lot of laws were created that stifled the same type of behaviour for later generations, who if performed the same acts today would be bending or breaking laws.
Click to expand...

I'm not really sure how that applies in this case. Unless you think children should be legally allowed to gamble. The online gambling portion of this stuff is dumb and does need to stop, but the major issue is these sites not restricting access to adults. Before the controversy started CSGoLotto only said that users had to be 13 or older to use the site.
 
Aix. said:
I dabbled a bit with DraftKings during the previous NFL season and didn't see anything particularly off about it; I paid an entrance fee and if my picks did well I made some money. What's the problem?
Click to expand...

You put money in, with a chance to win money, and a chance to lose your money. That's the definition of gambling. DraftKings and others have gone on the record time and time again claiming they are not a gambling site, and therefore are not bound by the regulations of gambling. That's the problem.
 
TheGardenTool said:
They don't have a way to turn in-game items into currency? I thought that is what this does in a roundabout way:

Steam Community :: Steam Community Market

I'm pretty sure I can use the money generated from that to buy game keys or other items that could be sold outside of the system for actual currency.

Oh well I'm sure they have a large enough legal staff to have thought about that along with whatever outside firms they hire to defend these lawsuits.
Click to expand...
There is a $400 limit on the Steam Community Market. Some of these skins can sell for $2k - $20k in the aftermarket. Buying keys and selling them by outside means was one of the ways you could cash out.
 
don't you have to buy a key to open the crates and gamble on skins? i would say that's gambling
 
It is done. Get ready for even shadier chinese/russian gambling sites to pop up.
Hlqi4Tm.jpg
 
buhbuhfet said:
don't you have to buy a key to open the crates and gamble on skins? i would say that's gambling
Click to expand...
Valve's crate system is without a doubt, gambling. You pay $2.49 for the chance to win a valuable virtual item, but 99.9% of the time you receive something worth one cent. It's Valve's version of a scratch-off lottery ticket.

And I can't believe this isn't talked about more often, but the most valuable items (Stat Trak skins in CSGO, unusual hats in TF2) cannot be acquired through regular gameplay, they must be purchased. When we talk about cosmetic DLC, we as gamers almost universally take the stance that, "It's ok as long as you can get the same cosmetics by playing". But Valve games aren't like that, the most valuable and sought-after cosmetics are locked behind a paywall.
NickJames said:
It is done. Get ready for even shadier chinese/russian gambling sites to pop up.
Hlqi4Tm.jpg
Click to expand...
It's fucking pathetic and insulting that Valve let this shit go on for five years without a care in the world, that is until they got sued.

This is the new Valve, a company who refuses to lift a finger until lawyers get involved. Shameful.

If I had said back in 2004 that Valve would become a shiftless holding company, fighting off gambling lawsuits, performing absolutely zero game development and instead funneling the hundreds of millions of dollars it made through shady microtransactions to fund it's CEO's pipe dreams, you'd have thought I was insane.

What's sad is that I don't see Valve changing. They're simply too detached from reality.
 
Armenius said:
There is a $400 limit on the Steam Community Market. Some of these skins can sell for $2k - $20k in the aftermarket. Buying keys and selling them by outside means was one of the ways you could cash out.
Click to expand...
There is also opskins.com which is like ebay for skins. and you can cashout to paypal.
 
personally i am for freedom of gambling, but scamming people or kids out of money is not right
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top