Valve Seems To Be Working On Tools To Get Windows Games Running On Linux

[tetris42]

Not exactly sure how making native Windows code run under Linux is breaking Microsoft's monopolization. It's very possible making worse by discouraging developers for making non-Windows native content.

If I can run all my games under Linux, I'm probably going to switch, the end. I'm not the only person thinking like that (it's probably still a small minority, but I imagine higher than the 0.5% of pure Linux gamers). That's reducing monopolization right there. Now it probably wouldn't usher in a giant WAVE of breaking, but it could maybe bring Linux up to single-digit percentages if there's no reason a gamer HAS to stay on Windows.

And give me a break on making things worse. It's never been easier to port to Linux. Any developers not releasing a Linux build weren't going to anyway. On the contrary,if Linux could get a more significant marketshare, that would provide more incentive to switch.

 

[Mazzspeed]

Sure, but Linux compatibility isn't just a problem for hardcore gamers, most smaller and even indie developers don't develop for Linux.

Actually indie developers love Linux as Linux gamers naturally aren't as focused on AAA titles.

Not exactly sure how making native Windows code run under Linux is breaking Microsoft's monopolization. It's very possible making worse by discouraging developers for making non-Windows native content. While this a good thing for Linux gamers it's far from a victory lap because it's an acknowledgment from Valve that there's a lack of native Linux games. There's no other reason to do this.

Maybe it helps spur native Linux development

You answered your own question, indie developers are going to continue to release under Linux for the reason mentioned above. Valve are obviously hoping AAA developers start to take notice and develop natively for Linux once they see Linux users running their titles on an operating system other than Windows.

 

[heatlesssun]

If I can run all my games under Linux, I'm probably going to switch, the end. I'm not the only person thinking like that (it's probably still a small minority, but I imagine higher than the 0.5% of pure Linux gamers). That's reducing monopolization right there. Now it probably wouldn't usher in a giant WAVE of breaking, but it could maybe bring Linux up to single-digit percentages if there's no reason a gamer HAS to stay on Windows.

If I could install Linux on my sig rig and most everything worked as well or better than it does on Windows, hell everyone would use Linux for gaming. No one is debating that. Making something like this all work is the problem. And of course if one is just a more causal gamer getting games to work under Linux is FAR, FAR easier.

But then comes along the new game, not Linux compatible. Rise and repeat. PC gaming is Windows gaming. That has to change for more people to use Linux for gaming.

And give me a break on making things worse. It's never been easier to port to Linux. Any developers not releasing a Linux build weren't going to anyway. On the contrary,if Linux could get a more significant marketshare, that would provide more incentive to switch.

Easier to port to Linux than ever thus the need to run Windows games under Linux? But sure, it's a market share problem. All I am saying is that it's unclear how making is easier to run Windows games under Linux does anything for anyone beyond Linux fans? Unless what Valve is doing well beyond current efforts in WINE and DXVK it matters little to average PC gamers that are already playing their games fine.

 

[heatlesssun]

You answered your own question, indie developers are going to continue to release under Linux for the reason mentioned above.

You aren't looking at the release catalog on Steam. The vast majority of games on Steam these days are from indie and smaller developers. If they were into Linux as you say then significantly more than 14% of games that came to Steam this year would have native Linux clients.

 

[tetris42]

If I could install Linux on my sig rig and most everything worked as well or better than it does on Windows, hell everyone would use Linux for gaming. No one is debating that.

Actually I was saying even THAT might not happen due to entrenchment, but then the numbers would be a hell of a lot better than 0.5%.

Easier to port to Linux than ever thus the need to run Windows games under Linux? But sure, it's a market share problem. All I am saying is that it's unclear how making is easier to run Windows games under Linux does anything for anyone beyond Linux fans? Unless what Valve is doing well beyond current efforts in WINE and DXVK it matters little to average PC gamers that are already playing their games fine.

Devs that port to Linux aren't the weak point. It's devs that DON'T port to Linux that are, thus that's where the attention focused (it feels insane explaining why this is a good thing). The point I was responding to was you saying you don't see how this would reduce monopolization. If I had a REALISTIC alternative to Windows, that alone would make Windows a de facto monopoly on much of PC gaming as opposed to the real one it is now.

 

[heatlesssun]

Actually I was saying even THAT might not happen due to entrenchment, but then the numbers would be a hell of a lot better than 0.5%.

But the fundamental problem in my case at least has ZERO to do with entrenchment. It has to do with simply making all of this shit work. Again, I know that the average PC gamer won't have anywhere near the problems I would with this kind of hardware. But unless the process is quick and easy and seamless and bulletproof why bother? "My game worked fine under Windows but I was told about all of the spyware in Windows 10 and the stuff I used to use that worked fine is all borked."

It can't be a substitution of one set of problems for another.

If I had a REALISTIC alternative to Windows, that alone would make Windows a de facto monopoly on much of PC gaming as opposed to the real one it is now.

So the way to reduce Windows monopolization is to simply make it easier to run Windows programs on other platforms? Again, it's far unclear how something like that plays out. If all it does is make it easier for devs to make Windows their first priority then from a 3rd party support perspective that only makes Windows stronger where it's already its strongest.
If it motivates devs to work on other platforms then yes, that's a much more desirable in an effort to break the Windows monopoly.

The Windows monopoly is the 3rd party monopoly. It really has little to do with Windows.

 

[Mazzspeed]

But the fundamental problem in my case at least has ZERO to do with entrenchment. It has to do with simply making all of this shit work. Again, I know that the average PC gamer won't have anywhere near the problems I would with this kind of hardware. But unless the process is quick and easy and seamless and bulletproof why bother? "My game worked fine under Windows but I was told about all of the spyware in Windows 10 and the stuff I used to use that worked fine is all borked."

It can't be a substitution of one set of problems for another.

I think you've lost point regarding the topic of this entire thread. Valve are working on making playing games under Wine using solutions such as DXVK seamless, I'm sure if there's issues Valve will support the customer as opposed to the developer.

So the way to reduce Windows monopolization is to simply make it easier to run Windows programs on other platforms? Again, it's far unclear how something like that plays out. If all it does is make it easier for devs to make Windows their first priority then from a 3rd party support perspective that only makes Windows stronger where it's already its strongest.
If it motivates devs to work on other platforms then yes, that's a much more desirable in an effort to break the Windows monopoly.

And we have no idea how it's going to play out, so why the negativity? People claiming that Windows is highly prone to viruses and malware are quoting the facts, you're attempting to speculate before something's even begun. As DPI quoted, it's almost like some form of nervous insecurity.

 

[tetris42]

But the fundamental problem in my case at least has ZERO to do with entrenchment. It has to do with simply making all of this shit work. Again, I know that the average PC gamer won't have anywhere near the problems I would with this kind of hardware. But unless the process is quick and easy and seamless and bulletproof why bother? "My game worked fine under Windows but I was told about all of the spyware in Windows 10 and the stuff I used to use that worked fine is all borked."

It can't be a substitution of one set of problems for another.



So the way to reduce Windows monopolization is to simply make it easier to run Windows programs on other platforms? Again, it's far unclear how something like that plays out. If all it does is make it easier for devs to make Windows their first priority then from a 3rd party support perspective that only makes Windows stronger where it's already its strongest.
If it motivates devs to work on other platforms then yes, that's a much more desirable in an effort to break the Windows monopoly.

You're literally arguing in circles, this is the exact same talking point you already made. I answered this in post #81 and 85. If you're not intentionally trying to obfuscate things, explain to me specifically what step of that confuses you.

EDIT:
Here it is, even more blunt:

1. A portion of users want to leave Windows, but can't because of gaming.
2. If they can run all their games on Linux, they'll leave.
3. Make it so they can run almost all their games on Linux.
4. Those users move to Linux, so less marketshare for Microsoft.
5. More marketshare on Linux means devs are more likely to make native Linux ports that weren't already.

Your point about it reinforcing Windows doesn't work, because it can't get any worse. Linux sales are already inconsequential, they don't matter. If devs see marketshare on Linux go from 0.5% to 10%, that may incentivize some to port to Linux that weren't already. The ones that were already porting to Linux won't stop because more Windows games can run on Linux, because there was never serious money there anyway. They're ALREADY doing it because they want to. Again, it cannot get any worse for Windows dominance. There's basically no games you can run on Linux you can't run on PC. You're fear mongering saying a scenario that's already happening could happen.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think you've lost point regarding the topic of this entire thread. Valve are working on making playing games under Wine using solutions such as DXVK seamless, I'm sure if there's issues Valve will support the customer as opposed to the developer.

Which kind of brings up the question. Obviously the developer that never bothered with Linux isn't going to be on the hook to support compatibility tech, unless Steam forces the issue which I would doubt. So then what is Steam's official stance on it? We guarantee compatibility under compatibility tech. So no performance hit, performance gain, this may not work, that should be fine?

Official support for this tech is a lot of responsibility.

As DPI quoted, it's almost like some form of nervous insecurity.

Going six years into Linux support on Steam and now the great innovation due to lack of native Linux support is to use Windows compatibility tools. You must get that couldn't have been Valve's plan.

 

[Mazzspeed]

This discussion's going around in pointless circles now....

 

[heatlesssun]

You're literally arguing circles, this is the exact same talking point you already made. I answered this in post #81. If you're not intentionally trying to obfuscate things, explain to me specifically what step of that confuses you.

For Linux folks, if you get more significantly more gaming content out of this and/or this helps boost Linux gaming which in turn boosts native Linux gaming development then sweet. It hardly matters to Windows gamers one way or the other at this point because all of this is just Windows content to bridge a gap on another platform. But maybe good things will come from it for everyone at a later date.

 

[heatlesssun]

This discussion's going around in pointless circles now....

It's quite clear.

1. Six years into Steam Linux support, it hasn't gone well with just 14% of current titles getting native Linux support.
2. Valve is trying to mitigate that problem using Windows compatibility tools.

The rest is speculation but yes there is a risk in doing this for Linux gamers that would like to see more native content. There's almost no risk or reason to be nervous from a Windows perspective if someone is having to use Windows content to salvage their project.

 

[tetris42]

It hardly matters to Windows gamers one way or the other at this point because all of this is just Windows content to bridge a gap on another platform.

Seriously, I've said it twice now. What's your excuse for ignoring what I said here:

People who are sick of Windows, but want to play ALL the games they're interested in, so they don't switch (this is the camp I'm in).

1. A portion of users want to leave Windows, but can't because of gaming.
2. If they can run all their games on Linux, they'll leave.

I'm being stupid and giving you the benefit of the doubt that there's some possible way you're not being deliberately ignoring this because it's your job to rep for MS. So if not, prove it. What's your excuse for ignoring that information and then saying this doesn't matter to Windows gamers? This reeks of burying your head in the sand on purpose. It's like the Upton Sinclair saying of how it's very hard to make someone understand something when their job depends on them not understanding it.

This discussion's going around in pointless circles now....

Yeah, well that happens when it's somebody's job to make it that way.

 

[heatlesssun]

What's your excuse for ignoring that information and then saying this doesn't matter to Windows gamers?

Because it would have to be damn near a 100% solution with few negative side effects. Yes, many Windows gamers would care, people like me with complex systems would care the most because they are the most vulnerable to flaws in Windows. Give me something that is resistant to those flaws AND actually doesn't melt like ice when trying to use this kind of hardware for gaming and I'm there long before most.

This reeks of burying your head in the sand on purpose.

I've thousands spent on gaming hardware and plan to buy a pair of 2080 Tis if I can afford them. I take this shit seriously. If Linux can drive it all better than Windows, why the hell would I argue against having thousands of dollars of stuff working better?

Sometime folks around here just don't think with much common sense.

 

[Mazzspeed]

And once again a certain person's glossing over the real issue pushing people away from Windows by exaggerating the necessity of Windows as a platform based on their own wants and needs to the larger population as a whole. This is crazy.

As DPI stated in another thread, it's unhealthy to encourage this behavior and as a result I'm moving on safe in the knowledge that it has to be fairly obvious to the broader HOCP community by now that a certain user has issues regarding Microsoft as even Microsoft's own employees aren't this fanatical about the company they work for.

For what it's worth to swinging gamers, I just bought a Razer Deathadder Elite, installed the Open Razer drivers and the Polychromatic Controller front end and everything works perfectly.

 

[heatlesssun]

And once again a certain person's glossing over the real issue pushing people away from Windows by exaggerating the necessity of Windows as a platform based on their own wants and needs to the larger population as a whole. This is crazy.

As DPI stated in another thread, it's unhealthy to encourage this behavior and as a result I'm moving on safe in the knowledge that it has to be fairly obvious to the broader HOCP community by now that a certain user has issues regarding Microsoft as even Microsoft's own employees aren't this fanatical about the company they work for.

For what it's worth to swinging gamers, I just bought a Razer Deathadder Elite, installed the Open Razer drivers and the Polychromatic Controller front end and everything works perfectly.

I've repeatedly stated that by far the biggest strength of Windows is its ecosystem. Tools like Wine and DXVK do nothing but leverage the Windows ecosystem for other platforms. Some of you make WAY more out of what I say and ignore the obvious.

I never said that Windows didn't have problems. But on the desktop its ecosystem is MILES ahead of everything else. An OS is no better than its ecosystem. Period.

 

[Meeho]

Seriously, I've said it twice now. What's your excuse for ignoring what I said here...

 

[naib]

https://steamcommunity.com/games/221410#announcements/detail/1696055855739350561

In 2010, we announced Steam Play: a way for Steam users to access Windows, Mac and Linux versions of Steam games with a single purchase. More than 3000 of the games that have been added to Steam after that point have included Linux support, with more titles being added every day. Since then, we've continued to look for ways to make more titles easily accessible to Linux users.

So, two years ago, we started an effort to improve the quality and performance of Windows compatibility solutions for Steam games. A lot of our work has been in the form of supporting Wine[www.winehq.org] and other existing compatibility projects. We have also been integrating these tools into the Steam client to provide the same simple plug-and-play experience offered by regular Linux games.

Our goal for this work is to let Linux Steam users enjoy easy access to a larger back catalog. We think it will also allow future developers to easily leverage their work from other platforms to target Linux. This would give them the option of focusing on areas that would make a meaningful experience difference for all users instead, such as supporting Vulkan[www.khronos.org].

As a result of this work, today we are releasing the Beta of a new and improved version of Steam Play to all Linux users! It includes a modified distribution of Wine, called Proton, to provide compatibility with Windows game titles. Here are some of the improvements it brings to the table:

• Windows games with no Linux version currently available can now be installed and run directly from the Linux Steam client, complete with native Steamworks and OpenVR support.
  
• DirectX 11 and 12 implementations are now based on Vulkan, resulting in improved game compatibility and reduced performance impact.
  
• Fullscreen support has been improved: fullscreen games will be seamlessly stretched to the desired display without interfering with the native monitor resolution or requiring the use of a virtual desktop.
  
• Improved game controller support: games will automatically recognize all controllers supported by Steam. Expect more out-of-the-box controller compatibility than even the original version of the game.
  
• Performance for multi-threaded games has been greatly improved compared to vanilla Wine.

We will be enabling more titles in the near future as testing results and development efforts progress; in the meantime, enthusiast users are also able to try playing non-whitelisted games using an override switch in the Steam client. Going forward, users can vote for their favorite games to be considered for Steam Play using platform wishlisting.

Steam Play whitelisted games will not be offered for purchase or marked as supported on Linux on the Store during the initial Beta period.

Proton, the tool that Steam Play uses to provide Windows compatibility, contains a custom version of Wine as well as additional libraries developed alongside it. It's fully open-source and available right now on GitHub[github.com]!

If you're familiar with building open source projects, you can even make your own local builds of Proton; the Steam client has support for using those to run games in lieu of the built-in version. Join the discussion in the issue tracker and share your patches and testing results with the rest of the community!

 

[Mazzspeed]

https://steamcommunity.com/games/221410#announcements/detail/1696055855739350561

Sounds quite exciting!

 

[naib]

Sounds quite exciting!

its crazy. Valve have been behind dxvk and that would explain how that came out of the blue soo quickly and evolved soo much.

I am sure alot of naysayers (the usuals) will go "so what, why does that interest me as a windows user" BUT as a linux user this is crazy. Valve have consistently chuck resources at making linux viable for gaming but they couldn't get enough to make steam boxes real, but this ... attacking the back catalogue and the stubbornness of other developers head on is dedication.

What is valves end-game. They are a business not a charity, so either they have converted to the church of RMS or they are after some movement to protect their income or increase their income. this is more than just double-down on linux...

 

[Mazzspeed]

its crazy. Valve have been behind dxvk and that would explain how that came out of the blue soo quickly and evolved soo much.

I am sure alot of naysayers (the usuals) will go "so what, why does that interest me as a windows user" BUT as a linux user this is crazy. Valve have consistently chuck resources at making linux viable for gaming but they couldn't get enough to make steam boxes real, but this ... attacking the back catalogue and the stubbornness of other developers head on is dedication.

What is valves end-game. They are a business not a charity, so either they have converted to the church of RMS or they are after some movement to protect their income or increase their income. this is more than just double-down on linux...

Microsoft's dominance places valve in a difficult position with too many of their eggs in Microsoft's basket, I honestly believe Valve are doing all they can to create alternate baskets that are profitable for Valve long term - Which is good business.

Great for non Microsoft users also.