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Value of the Performance Crown

L

laguerre

[H]ard|Gawd
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Nov 18, 2008
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4870x2 - 20 August '09 vs 295 - 08 January '09 = Performance Wash
5870 - 22 September '09 then 5970 - 18 November '09

This isn't about who's best, or arguing the exact performance numbers. Nvidia claims the performance crown mainly out of it's aggressive & dominant marketing tactics. This time, the coveted performance crown Nvidia claims (for a price premium) may have been lost for too long.

RV770 wasn't even made to compete for the crown, and yet it did a fine job of staying competitive on the top end. RV870 was made with a realistic approach and has decidedly taken the crown with little fanfare. If the cycle continues, we're looking at new architecture for ATI in September, less than 6 months after Fermi is available.

I have no doubt Nvidia will do just fine. Dual 285s or 295s are still very much relevant at present. The transition to Fermi will not be so long as to force staunch Nvidia supporters to go with ATI. However, the performance crown has been undermined. Let's be frank, the vast majority of people (notwithstanding [H] members <nod>) choose Nvidia because of appeal, not numbers. Although the numbers have been on Nvidia's side for the most part, since ATI's 5XXX Series, it has not.

With a refresh imminent on the ATI side, will regaining the performance crown have a big effect? Will they still have the mass majority lapping it up? Are you still committed to Nvidia and why? What are the requirements for a green card to find it's way into your PC?
 
I believe that most of the mainstream still consider Nvidia to hold the performance crown due to how long they've held it before. From the 7800 to the HD4870x2 is a very long while and even then most didn't count the x2 as it was a 2 in 1 card. With that mindset Nvidia held the crown even longer then; 7800 to HD5870. Only then was it really handed off, but like the 61 homeruns in 1961 it had an astrick of sorts stuck to it with the thought that Fermi would quickly take it back.

So I say with the launch of Fermi will it finally change hands to some. If Fermi comes out and is Very noticably slower then the HD5870 then the Crown will finally go to ATI in the eyes of the mainstream majority. And that's not even counting if ATI throws out a refresh right when the Fermi cards start shipping.

But this is just my opinion of how the masses look at these high end vid cards. Me? I just go for what ever really good deal in my price range on a good card I can find. Like my 4870 512mb for $100 back last July? Yes plz!
 
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Yep, I can guarantee you that most people don't even know the 5xxx series exists since they only look at the market when they want/need a new card. Nvidia's reputation is still intact but with every passing day it's getting chipped away. If they keep this up long enough the word will eventually get out to the masses that AMD is a viable alternative and then you'll see Nvidia's market share collapse like it did in R300 days.
 
trinibwoy said:
Yep, I can guarantee you that most people don't even know the 5xxx series exists since they only look at the market when they want/need a new card. Nvidia's reputation is still intact but with every passing day it's getting chipped away. If they keep this up long enough the word will eventually get out to the masses that AMD is a viable alternative and then you'll see Nvidia's market share collapse like it did in R300 days.
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But when they do go shopping they look for "World fastest GPU" on the boxe of their low end or midrange card. And many salesmen will say, "AMD has the fastest" and DX11 also. i would say it does make a difference.

Nvidia is late and they hate it more than anyone. But they have an excellent reputation and it takes more than being late once or twice to collapse their marketshare. And look how fast they recovered from their debacle with the overheating notebooks.
 
fanboy blah blah blah lets argue opinions like they're facts thread #2765. OP I'm sure your links are to facts or statistics or something, but the discussion you're requesting has been gone over so many times I'm sorry I'm a bit burnt out on it. I'm gonna buy what card plays games with the setup I can afford at the best price. done over move on. God this is getting worse than sports fan discussions..
 
Blind loyalty is highly over rated.....it is why we have a clown for a president now instead of the chimp he replaced.
 
piscian18 said:
fanboy blah blah blah lets argue opinions like they're facts thread #2765. OP I'm sure your links are to facts or statistics or something, but the discussion you're requesting has been gone over so many times I'm sorry I'm a bit burnt out on it. I'm gonna buy what card plays games with the setup I can afford at the best price. done over move on. God this is getting worse than sports fan discussions..
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I thought I made myself clear that this wasn't about facts or statistics. The links were to [H]ard|OCP very own with interviews with ATI from Anandtech. But once again, I was merely curious as to what the climate is here at [H]ard|OCP. I'm not looking for a debate about the merits of either card. I was looking for people sounding off with their position.

I think a good many enthusiasts at [H]ard|OCP will be taking the same route as you for video cards. But, how Nvidia is perceived will have an effect. Just as ATI has had to adjust their strategies do to the success or lack of success with different architectures, Nvidia will too. Unlike you, many people have come to support the green side because of their inherent success (broadcast by Nvidia). I see nothing wrong with it. The age old argument against ati drivers isn't a red herring. ATI earned it and they'll have to do more to be rid of it (sounds like they are).

So, I'm curious. For example, those who have no need for a video card upgrade and prefer the green team, what's your impression about this? Is this a minor glitch that won't have an affect or do you feel like there might be enough competition to influence your next choice?
 
metalsmart said:
But once again, I was merely curious as to what the climate is here at [H]ard|OCP. I'm not looking for a debate about the merits of either card. I was looking for people sounding off with their position.
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I think after the weekend/this mornings 'announcement of an annoucement' stunt most people at HardOCP are starting to go "...Really nvidia? Really? You can't give us any details while being seven months late except to give an annoucement of an annoucement? Really? That's the best you have to compete with? and more rebranding of old technology for oems with the '300' series name?".

nVidia is really starting to see like the scrawny kid who acts realllll tough but when you ask him to fight or you put his money where his mouth is...aka push comes to shove, he doesn't show up to the fight at the given time/place but you find a note saying he had to catch the bus but will be there tommorow and he'll fight you. In the meantime, he spreads rumors you were the one who didn't show up, your scared to fight him and continues to act tough. Rinse and Repeat. After a while, the scrawny kid loses his credibility and people stop believing his tough-guy routine or his rumors. I think everyone starting to get to the point where even if you believed he was tough cause he 'took tae kwon do when he was younger', you'd be starting to doubt him.

Really, all he's got left is a few friends who vouch for how tough he is like xman_245 claiming he has inside sources that Fermi will really totally rock and all the those guys saying he's a wuss are wrong! They don't know anything about how tough he is and what he's going to bring to the fight...someday...when the fight happens...you know...tommorow or the next day or the next day
 
WBurchnall said:
nVidia is really starting to see like the scrawny kid who acts realllll tough but when you ask him to fight or you put his money where his mouth is...aka push comes to shove, he doesn't show up to the fight at the given time/place but you find a note saying he had to catch the bus but will be there tommorow and he'll fight you. In the meantime, he spreads rumors you were the one who didn't show up, your scared to fight him and continues to act tough. Rinse and Repeat. After a while, the scrawny kid loses his credibility and people stop believing his tough-guy routine or his rumors. I think everyone starting to get to the point where even if you believed he was tough cause he 'took tae kwon do when he was younger', you'd be starting to doubt him.

Really, all he's got left is a few friends who vouch for how tough he is like xman_245 claiming he has inside sources that Fermi will really totally rock and all the those guys saying he's a wuss are wrong! They don't know anything about how tough he is and what he's going to bring to the fight...someday...when the fight happens...you know...tommorow or the next day or the next day
Click to expand...

I don't think your metaphor was long enough to really explain what you were after. ;)
 
necrophile said:
Omegas, did you forget the x1xxx and 79xx period? Nvidia did not win that one.
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Now you have me curious, I coulda sworn the upper ended scale tipped to the green side with the 7800/7900 for the first time since the 9700 popped out.
 
The midrange is the important win in any generation (typically been the $150-200 slot)

The following cards won the midrange in their respective generations:

GeForce 2 MX [loser = Radeon SDR]
GeForce 4 Ti4200 [loser = Radeon 8500 LE]
Radeon 9600XT (9500 Pro was short-lived) [loser= GeForce 5700 Ultra]
GeForce 6600GT [loser = x700 Pro]
GeForce 7600GT [loser = x1600XT]
GeForce 8800GT/9800GT [loser = HD 3870]
Radeon HD 4850 [loser = 9800GTX+/GTS 250]
Radeon HD 5770 [loser = ??? ]

Up until recently, that's been ALL Nvidia. That's where the money and mindshare are made. Right now, Nvidia is losing mindshare because they have nothing to compete with the 5770.

I still can't believe ATI blew two generations of their midrange after the 9600XT. They never released the x700XT, and overcharged on their cards, so the 6600GT beat them to shreds. And then they launched the craptacular x1600XT with an MSRP of $250, which dropped to $150 overnight...

Man, am I glad ATI finally figured out how to price their video cards, and offer competitive performance. Otherwise, we still would not have a choice at the midrange.
 
Do you think we'll see competition in the midrange then? With the 5770 sportin' three display outs and the GeForce 3xx series also with three, the SLI debacle may be solved. Though the 3xx series doesn't compete with the 5770, will Fermi release a price competitor out of the gate?

If the real competition is in the midrange cards, this should make out for an interesting launch. ATI has delayed the 5830 launch, so they're still sitting with a card to play. Perhaps we won't see much for price reductions at the midpoint considering ATI can just play the 5830 where needed. We may see price reductions in the 5770 if a person is good with the performance, but it seems like it's the price range that is the sweet spot, not performance point, and ATI will just make a substitution. Then the 58xx series will come back down to MSRP.

Anyhow, the point being, Nvidia will have to something more than their craptacular efforts thus far to elbow it's way back into the line-up? Or will they try to ride the performance crown in order to justify their prices?
 
apoppin said:
But when they do go shopping they look for "World fastest GPU" on the boxe of their low end or midrange card. And many salesmen will say, "AMD has the fastest" and DX11 also. i would say it does make a difference.
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How is that different to what I said?
 
Omegas said:
Now you have me curious, I coulda sworn the upper ended scale tipped to the green side with the 7800/7900 for the first time since the 9700 popped out.
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It was more of a draw depending on the games with the x1xx series edging nvidia out on the more demanding games IIRC.

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=7177&page=9

One review I found that seems to be a common enough.

Oh, and while not really accurate for this sort of thing.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-q3-2008/Assassins-Creed-v1.02,738.html

This doesn't really add to the topic as such just thought I would post for accuracy.
 
trinibwoy said:
How is that different to what I said?
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i was expanding on it and replying to what you wrote here:
. . . Nvidia's reputation is still intact but with every passing day it's getting chipped away. If they keep this up long enough the word will eventually get out to the masses that AMD is a viable alternative and then you'll see Nvidia's market share collapse like it did in R300 days.
Click to expand...

Hence my reply (of which you only quoted half) :p

Nvidia is late and they hate it more than anyone. But they have an excellent reputation and it takes more than being late once or twice to collapse their marketshare. And look how fast they recovered from their debacle with the overheating notebooks.
Click to expand...
 
Omegas said:
Now you have me curious, I coulda sworn the upper ended scale tipped to the green side with the 7800/7900 for the first time since the 9700 popped out.
Click to expand...
nah x1950xtx was killer card at that time and made nvidia release 7950gx2 (which failed teribbly btw lol) not only that x19xx series had also superor iq. 7xxx series image looked like cr_p compared to x19xx ones. so no ati lost the crown with r600 arch and ironically gained back with modified version of same arch :p
 
The war really is in the mid range. That's where all the money is at, basically. I consider myself an high-end enthusiast just like the many at [H] with a decent high-end rig. But still, price matters.

Just in the last year, I helped 4 friends completely build new systems. Guess what cards they went with? All midrange ATI. One went with a 4890 ($240), another a 4870 ($130) and the last two got the 5770 ($170). Simply, Nvidia has nothing to offer in this price range. The cpu's were a q6600 (used), Intel e5200 and Phenom II X4 940's. Total system costs were between $700-900. Just your typical consumer looking for the best bang for his buck.
 
Everyone I talk to that doesn't read forums or care about tech blogs and sites all come at me with the same response when they ask what videocard is popular or good to get.

When I come back with ATI, they all say "what? isn't Nvidia the best?"

The performance crown is very important, it taints perception by the general consumer for years and years.
 
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