VA panel questions

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Namelessme

[H]ard|Gawd
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Jan 3, 2012
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I have several newbie-type panel questions that I hope some folks here can help me with.

How does the current VA panels compare to IPS in regard to angles and black? Does anyone make a 16:10 VA panel anymore?

And how does the Samsung S27A650 compare to IPS panels? Has anyone seen any stores carry them (nice if it could be looked at in person)?

For general background, I come from the CRT world, used trinitrons most of my life, and am currently using a NEC 21" CRT. I tried out an e-ips display ( Dell 2412) but the AG coating was too much for me. Even disregarding the coating, blacks were, eh... a bit disappointing.

The NEC has been fine and I actually like it better than the 2412, but like all old tech, it won't last forever -- hoping to get a few years out of the thing, but who knows. I also find that Windows 7 has issues with cleartype off (which is best for this CRT), resulting in so-so fonts.

I ran across some posts about the Samsung S27A650 and it got me wondering how it compares to other panels, as it may be a decent option for me down the road sometime. Is it glossy or semi-glossy, at least? I don't think I could take another matte display with aggressive AG coating. I believe it's 1920x1080 which is a little low res for a 27"er, but that would also be fine with me, as I tend to increase dpi and zoom webpages anyway, so super high res/small type isn't what I'm looking for. 16:10 would be nicer though.
 
As far as contrast, VA panels still win when viewed directly, but my P-MVA does have noticable shift. Fortunately I am not bothered during regular use.
 
If blacks are truly important to you then *VA panels are your best option outside of Plasmas and upcoming OLEDs. IPS blacks are very mediocre indeed, cant be helped without some backlight dimming tricks.

*VA panels do suffer from horizontal shift, but this varies quite a bit depending what *VA type it has and who has made it. Most of them are just fine when viewed directly straight on and especially if you put some distance between the monitor and you.

I do not know what kind of coating A650 has but Samsung has used semi-glossy (best coating if you ask me) so far and I do not see a reason why would they change that. Overly aggressive AG coating has been pretty much solely LG's trademark sin.
 
Thanks for the replies so far.

So is the main downside of VA vs IPS overall color accuracy, or simply a bit of horizontal shift?

Are most VA panels 8-bit? Or namely, are the samsung VA models 8-bit?

And are there any recommended VA models that most people here use? I just mentioned the samsung one, as I saw someone else post on it. I don't know if Dell or anyone else makes comparable VA monitors anymore. I primarily have considered TN or IPS (LG + AG) or PLS (backlight bleed). OLED is what I am hoping to wait for, but again, using a somewhat old CRT, so it may live long enough... but maybe not.

As for angle issues, I think I am more prone to vertical shift than horizontal. As I find myself leaning back, or shifting my head somewhat, when doing computer stuff. So when I used a TN panel, it drove me crazy... lean down a little, and then the top of my screen looks all dark, etc.

Although if I ended up getting a 27" VA, I expect horizontal shift may come into play.

Out of curiosity, what panels do most televisions use? I have a Sony 46" from about 4 years ago, and assumed it was a PVA, and it handle angles pretty well. I can't stand at extreme angles far away without expecting some color shift, but sitting at various spots in front of it doesn't change the colors much, if at all. Then again, I don't use it as a monitor nor sit extremely close to it.
 
I am going threw the same debate as you. In the end I didn't find any real definite answers on the subject so I just ordered the S27A650D from Amazon and it will be here Tuesday. I will check it out for myself. If I don't like it I can still return it to Amazon for a full refund anyways
 
zod96 said:
I am going threw the same debate as you. In the end I didn't find any real definite answers on the subject so I just ordered the S27A650D from Amazon and it will be here Tuesday. I will check it out for myself. If I don't like it I can still return it to Amazon for a full refund anyways
Click to expand...

If you don't mind, can you post your opinion on it here whenever you check it out? Also curious about comparisons to other LCDs, if you have any to compare it to, that is.

The things I am most curious about are coating, angle issues, black levels and overall colors (6 bit or 8bit)?

AG coating would be a deal-breaker to me from the start. I guess my primary test for any monitor is that is has to at least be better than the CRT I am using now. If it's worse.... well, then it's silly for me to 'upgrade' to an LCD.
 
My understanding is the 650D has a semi glossy coating to it that is supposed to be very very nice and much better than the AG coating of the Dells. And I believe it is a true 8 bit monitor. I'll post some thoughts once I get it. I am getting it for BF3 and surfing the web so well see how well it does...
 
VA would be good if manufacturers made them better and not worse over time. I had 4 VA over past few years and basically oldest one was the best :( Well it's not entirely true but improvements were accompanied by more and more flaws compared to other techs that made this technology obsolete garbage it is today... For the fun I got old 17" MVA EIZO on similar panel I had my first MVA (Dell 1703fp) and truly it seem superior to new C-PVA and A-MVA technologies in terms of general look&feel :eek:

Well, maybe CCFL A-MVA monitor with good RTC would be nice but it's unlikely with all this LED hype combined with fact that manufacturing LED panels is a lot cheaper...
 
Are there any VA monitors to be released this year? I'm thinking of buying one, but I'm wondering if I should wait or settle for Eizo FS-2331. TN and IPS are out of the question for me.
 
I haven't seen any *VA monitors released or announced this year, unless you count Large Format Displays (which are basically commercial monitors, but are very expensive and not worth it for the average user just looking to play games and surf the net on a display). Both NEC and Samsung are the LFD leaders, afaik, with Samsung offering slightly higher end (e.g. 3D, very large touchscreen) model types out of the two. From what I've noticed though, Samsung's LFDs are extremely expensive when compared to NEC's, and prohibitively so unless you are looking at making an airport, casino or 5-star hotel look nice.
 
There are a number of VA panels likely to come to market this year. They may or may not use the same MVA panels as the Samsung 650 line.

http://www.samsung.com/us/business/monitors/LS22A650DS/ZA
http://www.samsung.com/us/business/monitors/LS24A650DS/ZA
http://www.samsung.com/us/business/monitors/LS27A650DS/ZA

I believe, for instance, that the interesting touchscreen AIO from Lenovo, the IdeaCentre A720, uses an MVA panel. I'm looking forward to the prices on a decent projected capacitive multitouch panel dropping from >1000$, which should happen in Q2 of this year.
 
I recently picked up a older dell 2408 (which is pva)... it is so much nicer than the Asus LED IPS panel I got rid of.
 
The IdeaCentre A720 looks sort of interesting. I can never seem to find out the panels used in most AIOs though. I saw a Sony L series 24"er for instance in the store, and the screen looked pretty good. I thought I read it was ips, but no idea if e-ips, ips, or actually va, tn etc. And no idea if 6 bits or 8 bits.

Do the traditional display review sites also review AIO screens?

I'm not sold on the touchscreen thing for AIOs though. They seem like a fad to me. Even if the IdeaCentre does make the screen more accessible, I don't see it being that useful for most people. I also don't think getting fingerprints all over your main monitor is exactly a good thing.
 
blackhand1001 said:
Yeah but they stopped putting them in monitors.
Click to expand...
You can still find them in a few of Eizo's Flexscan S series monitors. A shame that they are all wide-gamut with few ways to perform a decent calibration result - i didn't achieve it during my short ownership of the S2243W. Small pixel size, but the quality of the panel was simply just not up to par.

I'm using a Dell 2408 at work, and the panel has a bit better image quality (lower crush), but I have not been able to find a good way to achieve a remotely accurate sRGB representation - and the OSD is really hopeless (cumbersome to navigate). Anyways, i'm in SW development and it doesn't impact my work at all, so for that kind of use I can really there's no problem at all.

Namelessme said:
I guess my primary test for any monitor is that is has to at least be better than the CRT I am using now
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Prepare to be somewhat disappointed - no currently available screen is better than your CRT at all the points you mentioned. IPS has some pros and cons, while VA has other pros and cons. IPS in the shape of PLS reduces the AG coating level, which apparently seem to be too heavy on current IPS panels.
For the most immediate CRT-like appearance, IPS/PLS/AFFS looks about as close to CRT you can get - i.e. low gamma shifts, decent response times - but of course black levels will not be as good.

Maybe the Eizo FS2332 would be a good choice - apparently it also uses a PLS panel - and one would think that Eizo chooses to rejects the panels with bad uniformity that Samsung apparently sees no problem using (albeit a different size).
 
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Yeah, I might be disappointed. I know I was when I had a U2412. I find it odd when I read posts raving about its colors, or saying black is pitch black, etc. I guess it's all relative... if someone has never seen actual black in a monitor, 'dark gray = pitch black' to them.

Eizo probably would be nice. But it's also very, very expensive. I did like the Apple display I saw in the store, but that too is out of my price range.
 
I had purchased a lp2065 and didn't like them at all. I went back to my lp1965 monitors. I cannot figure out how anyone thinks s-ips is good. I have had a dell and hp and cannot stand the darks on s-ips. The only complaint I have about my lp1965 is that if I am watching a movie or playing a game with alot of dark scenes during the day, I have to close the curtains just so I can see the picture properly. But that is alot better than trying to watch a movie at night time and all you see in dark scenes is dark greys and backlight bleed.
 
Namelessme said:
Yeah, I might be disappointed. I know I was when I had a U2412. I find it odd when I read posts raving about its colors, or saying black is pitch black, etc. I guess it's all relative... if someone has never seen actual black in a monitor, 'dark gray = pitch black' to them.

Eizo probably would be nice. But it's also very, very expensive. I did like the Apple display I saw in the store, but that too is out of my price range.
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Pretty much spot on, Anyone who thinks their IPS panel has great black levels hasn't used a VA panel. Thats simply how it is. IPS is no where near the levels of VA regarding contrast ratios. Even old pva panels (1905fp, 1907fpv) have better contrast ratios than the newest IPS monitors. I've had all three types, I can't stand ips, the blacks suck, the glow annoys me, and the coatings are horrendous. None of the shortcomings of VA panels bother me. I just wish there were more options for us.

My 2408wfp has a set of lines on the right side that goes away after being on for a few minutes. Still under warranty but I really hope they don't send me a u2410 as a replacement as I have been down that road before. I prefer the 2408wfp greatly. Hopefully they have some left even if they are refurbs.
 
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Namelessme said:
The IdeaCentre A720 looks sort of interesting. I can never seem to find out the panels used in most AIOs though. I saw a Sony L series 24"er for instance in the store, and the screen looked pretty good. I thought I read it was ips, but no idea if e-ips, ips, or actually va, tn etc. And no idea if 6 bits or 8 bits.

Do the traditional display review sites also review AIO screens?

I'm not sold on the touchscreen thing for AIOs though. They seem like a fad to me. Even if the IdeaCentre does make the screen more accessible, I don't see it being that useful for most people. I also don't think getting fingerprints all over your main monitor is exactly a good thing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't want an AIO. I just want a touch screen monitor. I do a lot of web development, and it would be a lot easier to test UI with a secondary monitor attached to my main development machine than putz around with a tablet.

I have two criteria: good viewing angles, and reliable multitouch. I want to be able to emulate the way things will work on a tablet, just on a bigger screen.

There are three options:

Dell ST2220t -- IPS panel, SAW touch interface, two touch points, $230-320

EIZO T2351W -- VA panel, Optical touch interface, two touch points, ~$1000
http://www.eizo.com/global/products/flexscan/t2351w/index.html#tab02

3M -- MVA panel, Projected Capacitive touch interface, 10-20 touch points. Pricing: $1200-2000
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/TouchSystems/TouchScreen/Solutions/MultiTouch/

The 3M models have the functionality I want, but the price is about double what I think it should be, on principle. The 27" monitor is the same cost as the Lenovo AIO, which I suspect (read:hope) will use the same panel and touch interface.

The situation isn't that different from the home theater market, where a surround a/v processor costs more than a similarly featured receiver, despite the fact that the a/v processor is just a receiver without an amplifier.
 
Namelessme said:
Yeah, I might be disappointed. I know I was when I had a U2412. I find it odd when I read posts raving about its colors, or saying black is pitch black, etc. I guess it's all relative... if someone has never seen actual black in a monitor, 'dark gray = pitch black' to them.

Eizo probably would be nice. But it's also very, very expensive. I did like the Apple display I saw in the store, but that too is out of my price range.
Click to expand...

Most people mean in reference to IPS panels in general, the black levels are good on the U2412M. Most of us know that in comparison to a CRT these black levels do not compete, especially when taking into account the IPS glow on black. The problem these days is finding good CRTS which haven't lost most brightness to the point that we have to turn brightness up and get mediocre black levels.

S-PVA always had its share of trade-offs as well in terms of response time versus input lag, color shift off-angle (less important for a monitor IMHO).

I did like the very good black levels on the BenQ EW2420 VA panel but the quite slow response time was the big turn-off on that screen, as well as the horrible color calibration.

cvgd said:
Yeah, I don't want an AIO. I just want a touch screen monitor. I do a lot of web development, and it would be a lot easier to test UI with a secondary monitor attached to my main development machine than putz around with a tablet.

I have two criteria: good viewing angles, and reliable multitouch. I want to be able to emulate the way things will work on a tablet, just on a bigger screen.

There are three options:

Dell ST2220t -- IPS panel, SAW touch interface, two touch points, $230-320

EIZO T2351W -- VA panel, Optical touch interface, two touch points, ~$1000
http://www.eizo.com/global/products/flexscan/t2351w/index.html#tab02

3M -- MVA panel, Projected Capacitive touch interface, 10-20 touch points. Pricing: $1200-2000
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/TouchSystems/TouchScreen/Solutions/MultiTouch/

The 3M models have the functionality I want, but the price is about double what I think it should be, on principle. The 27" monitor is the same cost as the Lenovo AIO, which I suspect (read:hope) will use the same panel and touch interface.

The situation isn't that different from the home theater market, where a surround a/v processor costs more than a similarly featured receiver, despite the fact that the a/v processor is just a receiver without an amplifier.
Click to expand...

I have the ST2220T.

The black levels and contrast ratio are class-leading for an IPS panel, and equal or better the 2408WFP, but not the newer C-PVA panels. They are better than the Dell 2709W I used to have (1920x1200 S-PVA)

There is also a more subtle dark blue IPS glow versus the silver-ish glow you get from the other IPS panels. I think I was getting around 1200:1 contrast, and the benefit of the lower glow on blacks off-angle.

The only caveat in a multi-monitor configuration is it needs to be the first screen for the touch functionality to work best. If it's the second screen it becomes a mess, and it tries to move the cursor on the first screen, and incorrectly at that.

There are also these:

LCD2490WUXI-BK monitors with the 3m capacitive touch overlay on them available from Ebay. I bought one and removed the touch screen portion. It is a fully functional LCD2490WUXI-BK with a touch-screen on it. I cannot attest to the quality of the touch screen though. They have a lot of hours on them (mine had 22,000) but they work.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/24-Wide-Lcd-...r_Monitors&hash=item3a704d7251#ht_1453wt_1396
 
Sorry to threadjack.

The picture quality on the Dell doesn't concern me -- the quality of the touch interface does. Are you happy with the Optical tech? It only allows two touch points, which should generally be sufficient today. I've used one of the Dell's before, and I wasn't comfortable with the accuracy or responsiveness of the touch functionality, but it was not a well maintained screen and could have been an outlier.

The capacitive overlays on the NECs are single-point touch. That's not workable for UI testing.
 
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