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V-Sync: Why do Higher Refresh Rates = Less Lag

I skimmed through that article and it was just more confusing. This is the way I understand it.

The time difference between 2 frames for 85Hz is 1/85 s (1/Hz=1s), and for 60Hz it's 1/60 s, about 5ms more. So it can take up to 5ms longer after an input for the next frame to show up on a 60Hz.

Writing this before dozing off, I have a feeling I'll read this tomorrow morning and laugh at myself.
 
Vsync causes the graphics card to wait until the screen refreshes before drawing the next frame. So if you move your mouse, it would take up to 16.67ms @ 60Hz and 12.5ms @ 85Hz for the movement to appear on the screen. When you try to something in game, it usually takes several frames to accomplish.. so that 4.17ms difference between 60Hz and 85Hz starts adding up and becomes quite noticeable.
 
Lag (latency) is a time difference.

Hz is a measure of operation per second, so a refresh rate of 85hz has more operation per second than 60hz, this means a smaller amount of time between each refresh rate (less latency)
 
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PrincessFrosty said:
Lag (latency) is a time difference.

Hz is a measure of operation per second, so a refresh rate of 60hz has more operation per second than 85hz, this means a smaller amount of time between each refresh rate (less latency)
Click to expand...

I think you said that backwards. :D
 
But its not like your screen is displaying 85Hz anyway, so if you move your mouse if the game is moving at 85Hz, wouldn't you be seeing the exact same thing as though it were running at 60Hz?
 
Tudz said:
But its not like your screen is displaying 85Hz anyway, so if you move your mouse if the game is moving at 85Hz, wouldn't you be seeing the exact same thing as though it were running at 60Hz?
Click to expand...

why wouldn't the screen be displaying 85Hz?
 
Easiest way to answer your own question is to play at like 10hz then at 60hz and see which is better.
 
Skakruk said:
That article contains misinformation. It essentially says that Triple Buffering will eliminate the input lag caused by V-Sync. This is bullshit - If that were so, everyone would use V-Sync.

And it doesn't really answer my question.
Click to expand...

If you read the triple buffering section carefully, you can realize how that eliminates the artificial "lag" caused by enabling the v-sync.

Whether the v-sync is enabled or not, 60Hz LCD displays are limited to drawing 60 frames per second maximum. It's not like if v-sync is disabled we get more FPS physically or that we get less FPS if v-sync is enabled.

Triple buffering renders two frames while an additional frame is being "displayed." This would result a nomnom'ing of VRAM because an extra frame would have to be rendered behind the scenes but it works.

I remember experimenting with this way back with my Riva TNT and CS. When V-Sync was on the mouse lag was just horrendous -- i would move the mouse and the stop the movement while on the screen my counter-terrorist is still swinging his weapon... This was fixed in 2 ways -- either disable v-sync or enable triple buffering.

If triple buffering is not available in a game you play, you can also "force" the render ahead option in programs like ATI Tuner and such. I think you can set the frames upto 8 or something if i remember correctly.
 
kppanic said:
If you read the triple buffering section carefully, you can realize how that eliminates the artificial "lag" caused by enabling the v-sync.

Whether the v-sync is enabled or not, 60Hz LCD displays are limited to drawing 60 frames per second maximum. It's not like if v-sync is disabled we get more FPS physically or that we get less FPS if v-sync is enabled.

Triple buffering renders two frames while an additional frame is being "displayed." This would result a nomnom'ing of VRAM because an extra frame would have to be rendered behind the scenes but it works.

I remember experimenting with this way back with my Riva TNT and CS. When V-Sync was on the mouse lag was just horrendous -- i would move the mouse and the stop the movement while on the screen my counter-terrorist is still swinging his weapon... This was fixed in 2 ways -- either disable v-sync or enable triple buffering.

If triple buffering is not available in a game you play, you can also "force" the render ahead option in programs like ATI Tuner and such. I think you can set the frames upto 8 or something if i remember correctly.
Click to expand...

If I turn on V-Sync with Tripple Buffering in L4D/2 (which has both options officially supported) I've always still had ridiculous mouse lag and in most every other game I've tried V-Sync with.

Luckily screen tearing isn't an issue for me ever so the benefits of having V-Sync on are zero for me.
 
KayossZero said:
If I turn on V-Sync with Tripple Buffering in L4D/2 (which has both options officially supported) I've always still had ridiculous mouse lag and in most every other game I've tried V-Sync with.

Luckily screen tearing isn't an issue for me ever so the benefits of having V-Sync on are zero for me.
Click to expand...

It's different for everyone. I've had machines where I would get massive lag with Triple buffering and Vsync. And some where it was non-existent. Currently I play with them on and I don't get any. I'm upgrading on Wednesday so that could change.
 
Skakruk said:
Triple buffer does not eliminate the lag caused by V-Sync.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct, it is intended to eliminate the framerate spike from 60fps down to 30fps that happens when the GPU momentarily drops below the 60fps rate needed to keep the monitor fed. Without the triple-buffer, this would create stutter, as the framerate quickly cycles between 30 and 60fps.

Triple buffer is not a cure-all: you still need a framerate that averages above 60fps during the most demanding portion of a game, or else you will still see stuttering.

But triple-buffer adds problems of it's own, because if the video card is rendering frames at a much higher rate than the sync rate, you will continuously add a 1-frame delay to all your inputs. That is to say, triple-buffering can ADD to your v-sync lag problem.

There is a reason all serious gamers turn v-sync off. Triple-buffering has it's own set of problems in-use. The only bad effect of disabling v-sync is tearing.
 
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kppanic said:
If you read the triple buffering section carefully, you can realize how that eliminates the artificial "lag" caused by enabling the v-sync.

Whether the v-sync is enabled or not, 60Hz LCD displays are limited to drawing 60 frames per second maximum. It's not like if v-sync is disabled we get more FPS physically or that we get less FPS if v-sync is enabled.
Click to expand...

Yes, you do. The reason people see tearing without v-sync is because of a partially-drawn framebuffer update. With sync disabled, the framebuffer can be updated several times inside of a display sync period before being displayed in the next period. You can't get that kind of instant update with sync enabled.

AN EXAMPLE:

Let's say you press the mouse button in the middle of a screen update period. You want to shoot your weapon.

v-sync enabled: you press the button, the game engine registers it almost instantly, and wants to generate the next frame with the weapon fire. Since the next frame is already rendered (or being rendered) in the double-buffer, your input is going to have to wait. When the current sync period is over, the next frame in the buffer is displayed. After that, on the next frame period, the results of your input are displayed on-screen. That means you wait 1.x frames for your input to display, where x = the remaining fraction of the display period at the time of the input.

v-sync disabled: you press the button, the game engine registers it almost instantly, and wants to generate the next frame with the weapon fire. The next frame is already rendered in the double-buffer, but that doesn't matter because you're not synced. The game engine starts rendering your latest frame during the fraction of a sync period remaining. When the sync period ends, you have a partial frame to display with your latest input. You don't have to wait the extra frame like with sync on.

With sync on, your average delay (ignoring all other factors) is 1.5 frames (2 frames max). With sync off, your average delay is 0.5 frames (1 frame max). This is assuming in both cases that you are maintaining 60fps.
 
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If you read the update section of the anand article on triple buffering you'll see that triple buffering as called by most games is actually render ahead buffering while the triple buffering the article is talking about is buffer swapping. So I don't think it's misinformation, just a confusion of terminology.

The reason Vsync causes lag is because, if your frame isn't finished rendering when the screen refreshes, the screen just shows the old frame it had before. This means you get stale frames. Higher refresh rate means the display checks in for new frames more often, means your stale frame isn't out there as long and is more likely to pick up new frames right after they finish rendering instead of long after.


Higher fps also means you are more likely to have a brand new frame ready to go when the monitor does check in. In other words.. more hertz is good.. more fps is good.
 
defaultluser said:
Yes, you do. The reason people see tearing without v-sync is because of a partially-drawn framebuffer update. With sync disabled, the framebuffer can be updated several times inside of a display sync period before being displayed in the next period. You can't get that kind of instant update with sync enabled.

AN EXAMPLE:

Let's say you press the mouse button in the middle of a screen update period. You want to shoot your weapon.

v-sync enabled: you press the button, the game engine registers it almost instantly, and wants to generate the next frame with the weapon fire. Since the next frame is already rendered (or being rendered) in the double-buffer, your input is going to have to wait. When the current sync period is over, the next frame in the buffer is displayed. After that, on the next frame period, the results of your input are displayed on-screen. That means you wait 1.x frames for your input to display, where x = the remaining fraction of the display period at the time of the input.

v-sync disabled: you press the button, the game engine registers it almost instantly, and wants to generate the next frame with the weapon fire. The next frame is already rendered in the double-buffer, but that doesn't matter because you're not synced. The game engine starts rendering your latest frame during the fraction of a sync period remaining. When the sync period ends, you have a partial frame to display with your latest input. You don't have to wait the extra frame like with sync on.

With sync on, your average delay (ignoring all other factors) is 1.5 frames (2 frames max). With sync off, your average delay is 0.5 frames (1 frame max). This is assuming in both cases that you are maintaining 60fps.
Click to expand...

You still aren't seeing more than 60 FPS. Instead, you'll see several partial frames per second that all add up to 60. For example, in 1/60s the top half of the screen might be frame x and the bottom half frame y - but that is 1/2 frame + 1/2 frame, which adds up to 1 frame. That 1 frame is made up of multiple snapshots of game time, but it is still 1 frame.
 
I've always had problems with vsync input lag for the longest time. I remember along time ago when i had a older rig..i could run vsync and not have input lag. Not sure what causes the input lag. It could be modern motherboards or usb mouses but i'm not sure. Even with framerates higher than 60 the input lag is there. Gives that mouse drag effect. Triple buffer is a gimmick..nothing more. It never helped significantly. I wonder if someone has a fix for the input lag or some kind of tweak.
 
kllrnohj said:
You still aren't seeing more than 60 FPS. Instead, you'll see several partial frames per second that all add up to 60. For example, in 1/60s the top half of the screen might be frame x and the bottom half frame y - but that is 1/2 frame + 1/2 frame, which adds up to 1 frame. That 1 frame is made up of multiple snapshots of game time, but it is still 1 frame.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'll certainly agree with that. I think what I was trying to say is: you get a smoother play experience without increasing the refresh rate (and overall framerate). This is especially important in this day and age, when very few LCD monitors support refresh rates over 60 Hz.
 
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