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Using a 2nd PSU, does it need a load?

M

mikelz85

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
1,342
I just recieved a vapochill that requires 12v to run. My current seasonic 430 doesn't have nearly enough power. My solution is to run a 2nd PSU, and run the vapo off of that. I plan on turning on the PSU by shorting the pins on the ATX connector, but I'm not sure if the PSU needs a load on certain rails to function.

Does anyone know if when using a 2nd PSU, if it needs a load on any rails? Can I just turn it on and use it to power the vapochill?
 
jonnyGURU said:
(which I didn't even realize until now,)
Click to expand...

:p

one example of where being faster buried my answer
I saw yours come up right after I posted that and just knew

I did like my strobe analogy :p
 
jonnyGURU said:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=947239

Check out my post and Ice Czar's post at the end of the thread.

We both posted at the same time (which I didn't even realize until now,) but I think both posts have good information that pertain your situation.
Click to expand...
given your post it wouldn't be a good idea to take a 2nd (350 watt enermax) PSU and run only 9 amps off of the 12v? What would be a good way to put a load on the other rails? I'm really trying to avoid purchasing a $100 12v PSU, and would like to avoid going out and buying resistors to solder to the PSU, but if that's what I must do...

I'd love to be able to take a 2nd PSU and put it to use, but how (and it is needed with a 7-9 amp 12v load, right) to load the other rails, and which rails do I need to load?
 
well...
See Ive done that, I ran a RAID array off just the +12V rail on an old Antec PP403X
without any issues, what a particular supply might do is really why we are being conservative, we don't want to be responsible for bad advice that leads to damaged components, and well some supplies would be able to deal with it better than others, and adding a few resistors might not be a bad idea at all, run them outside the box and keep your coffee warm :p


my "stock" dual PSU answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

a rudimentary tutorial for ATX dual PSUs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
synch 2 PSU each as a seperate bus

1. Hardwired (what a CMStacker's adapter does)
2. With a relay

or employing a shared bus Like a redundant PSU

1. with resistors
2. with mosfets
3. with diodes (Single Source Fault Tolerant Power Systems)

(3 is slightly outdated now see gee's post > http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=776885)

I ran 2 hardwired 400 watts and a large RAID array for 3 years without issue on one of my boards (Abit KR7A)
however it may have been a contributing factor in the death of another board (ECS whatever :p )
though Im not at all sure about that

not running them synchd however certainly corrupted the hell out of the array :p
eventually switched to a Zippy Emacs MR3-6450P N+1
with considerably less total wattage but plenty for what was actually required
with 32A on the +12V rail for the drives and considering the mobo's VRM was powered off the +5V
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

for hardwired thats

between the 2 PSUs its
green to green (POW_ON \ power on)
black to black (COM \ ground)

and on just the second PSU
grey to black (Power Good to COM\Ground)
 
I also have a 40 amp 24v DC powersupply, would there be any way to transform this into 12v? What sort of device would I use, and how much would it run me?

I'm thinking if I need to run resistors (what size for my 9 amp load?, how does the math work?) on the other rails to run the ATX PSU, it may be easier to just convert the 24vdc psu. However if it is a ton more expensive, I'll just have to see.


I'm not looking to run "dual" PSUs per say. I just want to run my normal stuff (mobo, HD, etc) off of the seasonic, and then power the vapo with something not connected to the seasonic.

I've also got a 172 watt 24v (though capable of 12v) running off of my seasonic on my x800pro. It seems to be fine, not sure how the dual 12v rails are split up (I assumed 1 going to the mobo, the rest to the molex), but 7 amps or so plus my HDD and a few fans was no where near 14 amps, so I think it's fine.

However, if there is a way to make the 2nd ATX PSU run well under 12v load with resistors, I'd probably rather do that. That way I still have the option of running the peltier off of 24v.
 
mikelz85 said:
I'm not looking to run "dual" PSUs per say. I just want to run my normal stuff (mobo, HD, etc) off of the seasonic, and then power the vapo with something not connected to the seasonic.
Click to expand...

Think thats a good Idea, I posted that so that if you wanted to make sure the Phase Change came on at the same time as the computer it would ;)

forgetting would be bad :p

as far as resistors go, Im not qualified to recommend that and would personally investigate what you might actually be able power instead of directly convert to heat, maybe lights?

as already mentioned a dedicated +12V linear is the ideal solution, and the synchd ATX w\out a load a probable solution, personally Id look on ebay for industrial linear PSUs, its generally only a matter of time till something really good falls in your lap

provided you do the research ;)
 
As an eBay Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
well, I'd really rather not buy a new 12v PSU, given that I'm sure there's a way to transform my 24vdc into 12vdc. Also, I'm looking to load the rails on a 2nd individual ATX properly, as I am correct in thinking that it is not a good idea to put a 8 amp load on the 12v rail without loads on the other rails, right? If anyone knows how I would greatly appreciate it. I don't mind running out and buying resistors, but I'm not sure which rails need a load, and how big (thus what size resistor) the load needs to be.

Finally, if I do connect the "switch" on these PSUs so that they both turn on at the same time (no rails connected in any way shape or form, just the wires for ON/OFF), how will it work, as I have 1 24 pin PSU (the seasonic) and 1 20 pin PSU (the enermax)? Note that I don't want to connect rails for more power, only the on/off.
 
well the mobo turns the ATX on and off (Wake On LAN, WAN, soft power ect)
so the hardwired method listed above is how its done between two ATX supplies
if your not using the relay method linked below it

those are just signal wires, the actual rails (power bus) are seperate
as I mentioned before, I have put at least an 8amp load just on the +12V rail without any other rail with a load, and at least for the Antec PP403X it didnt seem to be much of an issue
not that I had a tight multimeter monitoring it, and not that once the drives spun up the amperage draw didnt drop to a quarter of that.
 
yeah, I really don't want to damage this vapochill. Plus, I'm not sure how high the sustained load of the vapochill is.

So is there any definitive info on whether or not it is safe to run a load that high on the 12v without loading the other rails? I'm guessing probably not.

Oh well, once again, if anyone has info on what size resistors I need given the 8 amps or so I need off of the 12v rail, and where to put them, please let me know.

Also, if someone knows how to convert a 24vdc supply to 12vdc, please let me know!
 
well, I'm now royally confused, as my PE vapo runs off of a 20pin standard, and I don't see anyway to hook it up to my DFI, except to use a couple of adapters, which DFI says not to use, so I can't imagine that this would be a good idea (though I'm tempted).

PSU 24pin---->(adapter)20pin--->chillcontrol/vapo------->20pin-------->(adapter)24pin mobo


If anyone has any info on powering the vapo, or even using it, with a 24pin mobo, please check out my thread over there, as I'm in need of help: http://forum.vapochill.com/showthread.php?t=10286



EDIT: I have an idea to make it work with my 24 pin mobo, but I need to know if this is safe!!!!

My idea is to take my 24pin PSU connector, and split the 4 pins off of it (I'd have to cut it, as it doesn't separate on its own), leaving me with 20pins and 4pins. I would then take the 20pins and plug them into the chillcontrol, and then plug 20 pins into the mobo, along with the other 4 pins (coming directly from PSU) into the same connector (making for 24 total pins).

I am not talking about plugging the standard 4 pin 12v connector into the 24pin ATX connector. I am talking about routing 20 of the 24 pins through the Chillcontrol then to the mobo, and running 4 of the 24 pins straight to the mobo.

Would this work? Would it pose a problem with power, as 4 of the 24 pins would come straight from the PSU, while 20 of the 24 pins would pass through the chillcontrol first?

Someone let me know if this is safe or not, as I think it may be the best solution.
 
I don't see how that really accomplishes anything different.

The 20-pin ATX connector only has one 12V wire. 24-pin's have two. This is the same rail the Seasonic supplies power to the drives with.
 
jonnyGURU said:
I don't see how that really accomplishes anything different.

The 20-pin ATX connector only has one 12V wire. 24-pin's have two. This is the same rail the Seasonic supplies power to the drives with.
Click to expand...
I'm dealing with a new dilemma besides how many amps the PSU has. The vapochill gets its power from a 20pin ATX connector and then sends the power to the motherboard (and controls the on/off of the PC) via another 20pin ATX connector.

Thus, with a 24pin PSU and motherboard, stuff gets weird. Rather than using adapters, I was wondering if the method in my post above will work.

Then I will power the pump for the vapochill using a 12vdc dedicated supply, which will take 7 or so amps off of the load on the seasonic, leaving plenty of power to use the seasonic to power everything else.

So, can I take 24 pin connector, run 20 pins through the vapochill/chill control (and then to the mobo), and then run the other 4 pins from the 24pin connector straight from the PSU to the ATX connector on the mobo?

I've heard that the DFI board can be run on only 20 pins (I wouldn't want to try this though), however, the 5v vdimm jumper cannot be used then (I'd guess an adapter might have similar consequences) as it pulls power off of one of the extra 4 pins, and then ram can be damaged.
 
mikelz85 said:
I'm dealing with a new dilemma besides how many amps the PSU has. The vapochill gets its power from a 20pin ATX connector and then sends the power to the motherboard (and controls the on/off of the PC) via another 20pin ATX connector.

Thus, with a 24pin PSU and motherboard, stuff gets weird. Rather than using adapters, I was wondering if the method in my post above will work.

Then I will power the pump for the vapochill using a 12vdc dedicated supply, which will take 7 or so amps off of the load on the seasonic, leaving plenty of power to use the seasonic to power everything else.

So, can I take 24 pin connector, run 20 pins through the vapochill/chill control (and then to the mobo), and then run the other 4 pins from the 24pin connector straight from the PSU to the ATX connector on the mobo?

I've heard that the DFI board can be run on only 20 pins (I wouldn't want to try this though), however, the 5v vdimm jumper cannot be used then (I'd guess an adapter might have similar consequences) as it pulls power off of one of the extra 4 pins, and then ram can be damaged.
Click to expand...
What you might want to do, although this will cost money, is check out the Antec TruePower 2.0 PSUs. The extra 4 pins on the power supply can be seperated. This way, you can connect the extra 4 pins straight to the motherboard and use whatever connectors the Vapochill uses on the other 20 pins. Plus, if you get a model with enough juice, you don't have to worry about power requirements anymore. :)

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=22550
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=22552

Now, I'm just throwing that out, cuz I figured it might be the best/safest solution for you. I dunno if you want to actually spend more money.
 
I don't really have a problem cutting/modding my 24 pin connector into 20pin+4pin. I'm already looking at a 12vdc 10amp dedicated PSU off of ebay (new) for $24 shipped. The dedicated supply can be used to run the vapos pump, taking most of the power load off of the PSU.

My only real concern is whether or not it is safe to run the 20 pins (from psu) through the vapo to the 24pin motherboard connector, while the other 4 pins are running straight from the PSU to the 24pin mobo connector, without going through the vapo.

I'd hate to do something that isn't safe.
 
mikelz85 said:
I don't really have a problem cutting/modding my 24 pin connector into 20pin+4pin. I'm already looking at a 12vdc 10amp dedicated PSU off of ebay (new) for $24 shipped. The dedicated supply can be used to run the vapos pump, taking most of the power load off of the PSU.

My only real concern is whether or not it is safe to run the 20 pins (from psu) through the vapo to the 24pin motherboard connector, while the other 4 pins are running straight from the PSU to the 24pin mobo connector, without going through the vapo.

I'd hate to do something that isn't safe.
Click to expand...
Well, that's pretty much what I was suggesting you do with the Antec PSU, 'cept the Antec comes with a connector already designed for you to seperate. On www.svc.com and www.frozencpu.com you can find connectors in different colors for you to replace your pre-existing connectors. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use those connectors and reconfigure your adapters so that the 24-pin will run straight through.
 
what do you mean by "straight through"?

After some thought, cutting the 24 pin connector into 20+4 pins seems impossible.

However, I could certainly take the 4 wires out of the 24 pin connector, and then make/mod it to go into another 4pin connector that'll fit the 24pin ATX connector on the mobo. Essentially modding the ATX connector to look like the Antec.

It's funny that you mention SVC, as I just had the same thought. However, the standard 4pin 12v connector doesn't fit the 24pin ATX connector (at least my seasonic 4pin doesn't). The problem is that while everything matches (rounded edges vs. squared edges), the rounded edges are on the wrong part of the "female pin". I could sand one set of edges down on the outside, but the inside edges would be impossible to file/sand.

Hopefully I can find some sort of connector that'll work.

My other idea was to just take a 20pin ATX connector off an old PSU, find some part of the connector that matches the 4 pins I need, then cut it out (with some excess, so maybe 5 pins wide instead of 4, with half a pin of excess on each side to be sanded), and then sand/file it down to fit perfectly.

This of course, all assumes that it is safe to pass 20 pins through the vapo chill control, then to the mobo, while 4 pins pass straight from the PSU to the mobo. I am concerned about this.


Well, looks like SVC sells the part I need: http://www.svc.com/pck-uvb.html

However I'm not sure whether or not this is a safe method of powering the motherboard, so if someone knows, please tell me.
 
mikelz85 said:
what do you mean by "straight through"?

After some thought, cutting the 24 pin connector into 20+4 pins seems impossible.

However, I could certainly take the 4 wires out of the 24 pin connector, and then make/mod it to go into another 4pin connector that'll fit the 24pin ATX connector on the mobo. Essentially modding the ATX connector to look like the Antec.

It's funny that you mention SVC, as I just had the same thought. However, the standard 4pin 12v connector doesn't fit the 24pin ATX connector (at least my seasonic 4pin doesn't). The problem is that while everything matches (rounded edges vs. squared edges), the rounded edges are on the wrong part of the "female pin". I could sand one set of edges down on the outside, but the inside edges would be impossible to file/sand.

Hopefully I can find some sort of connector that'll work.

My other idea was to just take a 20pin ATX connector off an old PSU, find some part of the connector that matches the 4 pins I need, then cut it out (with some excess, so maybe 5 pins wide instead of 4, with half a pin of excess on each side to be sanded), and then sand/file it down to fit perfectly.

This of course, all assumes that it is safe to pass 20 pins through the vapo chill control, then to the mobo, while 4 pins pass straight from the PSU to the mobo. I am concerned about this.


Well, looks like SVC sells the part I need: http://www.svc.com/pck-uvb.html

However I'm not sure whether or not this is a safe method of powering the motherboard, so if someone knows, please tell me.
Click to expand...
Why doncha buy the following:
24-to-20 pin adapter http://www.frozencpu.com/psu-112.html
20-to-24 pin adapter http://www.frozencpu.com/cab-69.html
Some appropriately colored 18ga wire and pin connectors

What you're going to do is turn two adapters into one. The 24 pin end of the 24-to-20 won't have anything connected to the last 4 pins. You'll wanna put the approprately colored wires and connectors in those last four pins. Then, on the 24 pin end of the 20-to-24 you'll have wires that are Y'ed out from some points in the 20 pin end. You'll want to dispose of those extra Ys so that way the 20-to-24 is wired the exact same way as the 24-to-20. Then, take those 4 wires you added to the 24-to-20 and connect those to the appropriate places on the 20-to-24. This way, as far as the Vapochill is concerned, you've got a 20 pin power supply and motherboard. :)
 
I actually already have both adapters, as one I bought when I got my DFI (20pin male to 24pin female), and the other I got with my seasonic (24pin male to 20 pin female), though I'm concerned about using adapters on my DFI board, this method you listed really isn't adapting anything. However, I think it'll be a good deal easier (with less loss due to the adapters) going with a kit to turn my 24pin female ATX connector into 20+4.

However, this still doesn't answer my real concern:

Is it safe to run 20 pins to the vapochill/chill control, and then from there, 20 pins to the motherboards 24pin connector, while 4 pins run straight from the PSU to the motherboard 24pin connector (without passing through anything)?

My concern is that some sort of delay could occur, I really have no clue, but I'd like to make sure it is a "sound" method before embarking on the mod.
 
mikelz85 said:
I actually already have both adapters, as one I bought when I got my DFI (20pin male to 24pin female), and the other I got with my seasonic (24pin male to 20 pin female), though I'm concerned about using adapters on my DFI board, this method you listed really isn't adapting anything. However, I think it'll be a good deal easier (with less loss due to the adapters) going with a kit to turn my 24pin female ATX connector into 20+4.

However, this still doesn't answer my real concern:

Is it safe to run 20 pins to the vapochill/chill control, and then from there, 20 pins to the motherboards 24pin connector, while 4 pins run straight from the PSU to the motherboard 24pin connector (without passing through anything)?

My concern is that some sort of delay could occur, I really have no clue, but I'd like to make sure it is a "sound" method before embarking on the mod.
Click to expand...
From my basic knowledge of electronics, and from something I read here on the forums that I think Ice Czar wrote, you're gonna end up with somewhat of a higher resistance, which will take your voltage down a tad. Remember that electricity moves at the speed of light, and at the incredible speed at which light moves, it takes (if I remember correctly) about 8 minutes for light to traverse millions of miles from the sun to the Earth... Therefore, any delays that would be casued by the adapters would not matter. Besides, such a delay would only really matter if data were being transmitted through the cables, but there's nothing that needs to be synchronized with a power supply.

I think the biggest trouble you're going to run in if you do such a thing is that your voltages might sag a little bit due to the added reistance of the adapters and the VapoChill adapter, which might make any OCing attempts unstable.
 
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