US Plans 'Unprecedented' Sanctions Against China Over Hacks

[aShrubbery!]

All this fuckery from China and others will stop when we get this administration out of the White House. Everybody knows Obama's "Red Lines" mean nothing and now is their best chance to get away with this shit.

"And I'll huff, and I'll puff and I'll blow this house doooooown....!"

Oh boy, a lot of hot air and nothing to show for it!

Obama might not be able do - or want to, but that is besides the point - since all serious possible measures would cut the supply chain from Chinaland, that the fabulously materialistic people of the USA, and send all into a catastrophic withdrawal.
In the end, all the peasants would rally in Washington with their pitchforks to demand their cheaply made junk be back in abundance.

 

[aShrubbery!]

These are sanctions, not import tariffs.

So if they found Chinese company ABC Imports was behind a hacking case, for example, and they were placed on the OFAC list, any bank that wants to use dollars or do business in the US (or any US person, business, etc) must seize any funds they have, and block any future transactions with those parties or any parties 51% owned by those parties.

So bank balances, orders of goods, etc, all would be seized and held, and they wouldn't be able to use a significant portion of the international banking system any longer. It would not be a tariff on their goods, nor a complete prohibition of Chinese goods.

Hmmm... how would that not undercut US companies in the manufacturing of any given specific category of goods? Without the funds, without the commodities how can Chinese manufacturers guarantee that supply will remain constant?
And I haven't even mentioned the holding of the US debt by the Chinese.
At best, these sanctions would have to be 'surgical', extremely precise in order to not make things escalate between China and the US - I'm not talking about armed conflict here!

 

[Deleted member 136890]

What can China do if the USA tell it to f*** off and not pay?

You do understand that china is in no position militarily to force the USA to pay anything. And in fact, if the US decide to stop buying chinese product, china will revert to a 3rd world shit hole overnight.

That will never happen. You do realize that the treasuries that China holds can not ever be refused if they are deposited for redemption. You also do realize that the moment the USA refuses to "honor" said treasures will cause the utter shit storm of the likes that no one in the western world can contain or control.

Talking about 3rd world status, we the USA will be just that within 24 to 48 hours.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

Most Americans though are not willing to pay $1000 for an iphone or that much more for a car due to the higher working standards here, people want jobs back in North American but once they see the price tags of products they make...

How dare you make common sense logic I can't argue with.

It's in cases like this where perhaps government is best doing what you won't do for yourself...forcing you to buy American, so your neighbor has a decent job.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

That will never happen. You do realize that the treasuries that China holds can not ever be refused if they are deposited for redemption. You also do realize that the moment the USA refuses to "honor" said treasures will cause the utter shit storm of the likes that no one in the western world can contain or control.

Talking about 3rd world status, we the USA will be just that within 24 to 48 hours.

Tell that to Greece, and other countries that love to default.

 

[Tuxon86]

That will never happen. You do realize that the treasuries that China holds can not ever be refused if they are deposited for redemption. You also do realize that the moment the USA refuses to "honor" said treasures will cause the utter shit storm of the likes that no one in the western world can contain or control.

Talking about 3rd world status, we the USA will be just that within 24 to 48 hours.

Lol... Not really. The Chinese hold only 7% of US debt and they are dependant of your market. Like Russia, they are at most tolerated in the G8 and are on an ejectable seat politically. Their economy is artificially over valued and is already being brought down to a more realistic value. You have whole cities that are totally empty of citizen, endemic pollution and abject poverty. Like India they are also dependant on western R&D as they don't seem to be able to produce shit by themselves.

 

[Deleted member 136890]

Lol... Not really. The Chinese hold only 7% of US debt and they are dependant of your market. Like Russia, they are at most tolerated in the G8 and are on an ejectable seat politically. Their economy is artificially over valued and is already being brought down to a more realistic value. You have whole cities that are totally empty of citizen, endemic pollution and abject poverty. Like India they are also dependant on western R&D as they don't seem to be able to produce shit by themselves.

1- There is no G8, used to be one when Russia was in the "club". But since the whole Ukraine shit the USA has been doing, the Russians were kicked out in retaliation. The former G8 comprised of

United States, Canada France, Germany, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom and Russia

2- China and/or Russia are not part of the G7

"The Group of Seven (G7) is an informal bloc of industrialized democracies--the United States, Canada France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and the United Kingdom--that meets annually to discuss issues such as global economic governance, international security, and energy policy."

Oh yes I know about 7 percent but you do the math and be honest with yourself. What would happen if all 7 % is dumped, all 1.4 trillion dollars. If only a mere 100 billion dollar dumping can cause a small shit storm in the FX/Bond markets what would 1.4 trillion do.

 

[sliverjazz]

Thinking outside the box is incredibly dangerous and socially UNacceptable.

 

[cgrant26]

Here comes another Walmart Rollback.

 

[MrCaffeineX]

Most Americans though are not willing to pay $1000 for an iphone or that much more for a car due to the higher working standards here, people want jobs back in North American but once they see the price tags of products they make...

This is where economics gets really interesting.

It is true that most Americans are not willing to pay $1000 for an iPhone. Some of the reason for this is that most Americans simply do not have $1000 to spend on an iPhone.

There are a number of economists that argue that there would be a short-term disruption if we implemented policies that encouraged reshoring, such as tariffs on imported goods, but over the long term, it would provide more decent paying jobs here in the US as it became more cost-effective for businesses to bring production back to their home market. The end result is that people would have more disposable income, so extrapolated out over a decade or two, equilibrium would be restored.

Another argument is that eventually the international markets will reach cost-parity with the US. Countries like China and India have yet to develop much in the way of labor unions, OSHA regulations, etc. These are factors that increase the cost of production. As their economies continue to develop and their citizens demand better pay, working conditions, etc, the costs will theoretically increase enough that at some point in the future they will be comparable to production costs in other developed nations.

Mexico was a major production force for a period of time, until it became cheaper to produce things in China or India. Now, those countries are moving up the ladder, so it is arguable that it is only a matter of time before there is another major transition in international production.

In any of the above cases, the average consumer is actually their own worst enemy. They are generally so concerned with their short-term gain (i.e. cheap crap they can buy in bulk) that if Wal-Mart or any of the other bottom-tier (in terms of quality) retailers disappeared, there would be riots. Look at how much the Amazon controversy has affected their business (i.e. not much as far as I've seen). If the average consumer gets their inexpensive items, they don't care about the behind-the-scenes stuff.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

I understand that the U.S. citizen will be paying the price. Higher taxes and higher prices on everything. Since the U.S. government can't generate enough income (through taxes) to pay itself, it sells those treasuries to China to get money to pay itself and pay for expenses. If they stop buying, the U.S. citizen will be paying.

The biggest problem in the US economy is ENTITLEMENTS. This is why our country is falling apart with infrastructure crumbling. This is why our space program is a JOKE compared to what it was in the past. THIS is why we need other countries to buy our debt to keep our economy alive; and right now it is on life support. There are way too many able-bodies people with their hand out than working; and there is no lack of jobs. But people are TOLD to expect a comfortable middle income life style with no skills, no education. The disability system is so easy to game now it is ridiculous. You can get full disability for depression. This is part of the social security system. Social Security STOPPED becoming about an old age pension a long time ago. If you go to the SS office in your city; look at the waiting room. You will see VERY FEW retirement age people. You will see a lot of young people working on getting disability; with NOTHING WRONG with them.
All you liberal that idolize FDR, JFK and LBJ this is what the goal was from the beginning of the FDR administration. DEPENDENCY ON THE GOVERNMENT to guarantee votes for liberal democrats.

You know what would suck? The U.S. government pulls eminent domain on all us property owners and turns it over to the Chinese, because we can't pay them on the debt they bought from us.

Won't happen. US citizens have constitutionally guaranteed property rights. They will have to institute a 100% gun ban first. That will never happen because you will see a real armed revolt in this country.

Consider a lesson from history: After Pearl Harbor; the US Navy was decimated. The Japanese could have invaded the west coast of the united states; we really had no naval power in the pacific to stop them.
BUT, Admiral Yamamoto advised against this because he rightly said "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass". Japan steamrollered through Asian countries because the citizenry had no guns or were disarmed by their government.
NOT SO in the USA.

 

[Dekoth-E-]

Wait.. you can get full disability for depression so you can sit home all day and play video games? Be back later, going to see my Dr!


I kid

 

[Dr. Righteous]

Wait.. you can get full disability for depression so you can sit home all day and play video games? Be back later, going to see my Dr!


I kid

Unfortunately nothing funny about this. If you are intent on getting disability, there is little stopping you. The vast majority of disability claims are completely bogus; so your claim will likely be rejected. The SSA will have you evaluated by a doctor; the doctor will say you are NOT disabled if that is the case. You will be rejected again. So you get a lawyer. There are law practices who sole business is suing the SSA on behalf of people with completely bogus disability claims. So at some point they decide to give someone disability instead of extended litigation. I know people that have done this. NOTHING wrong with them except for the fact they are fat lazy slobs.

 

[Deleted member 136890]

-snip-

Won't happen. US citizens have constitutionally guaranteed property rights. They will have to institute a 100% gun ban first. That will never happen because you will see a real armed revolt in this country.

-snip-

All of your points I agree with except just 1, The one I left quoted. Now tell me this, since when does this administration follow the constitution ?. The constitution has been shredded and thrown in the trash can.

 

[MrCaffeineX]

The biggest problem in the US economy is ENTITLEMENTS. This is why our country is falling apart with infrastructure crumbling. This is why our space program is a JOKE compared to what it was in the past. THIS is why we need other countries to buy our debt to keep our economy alive; and right now it is on life support. There are way too many able-bodies people with their hand out than working; and there is no lack of jobs. But people are TOLD to expect a comfortable middle income life style with no skills, no education. The disability system is so easy to game now it is ridiculous. You can get full disability for depression. This is part of the social security system. Social Security STOPPED becoming about an old age pension a long time ago. If you go to the SS office in your city; look at the waiting room. You will see VERY FEW retirement age people. You will see a lot of young people working on getting disability; with NOTHING WRONG with them.
All you liberal that idolize FDR, JFK and LBJ this is what the goal was from the beginning of the FDR administration. DEPENDENCY ON THE GOVERNMENT to guarantee votes for liberal democrats.



Won't happen. US citizens have constitutionally guaranteed property rights. They will have to institute a 100% gun ban first. That will never happen because you will see a real armed revolt in this country.

Consider a lesson from history: After Pearl Harbor; the US Navy was decimated. The Japanese could have invaded the west coast of the united states; we really had no naval power in the pacific to stop them.
BUT, Admiral Yamamoto advised against this because he rightly said "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass". Japan steamrollered through Asian countries because the citizenry had no guns or were disarmed by their government.
NOT SO in the USA.

Entitlements are a factor, but more specifically, the two largest are healthcare and Social Security. Healthcare (Medicaid, Medicare, etc.) are about a quarter of the federal budget last I knew. Social Security, which includes retirement benefits, disability benefits and supplemental income benefits, adds another quarter of the federal budget. Safety net programs like SNAP (used to be Food Stamps) and HEAP are somewhere around 10% of the federal budget. These are the programs that are most often demonized as the scourge of America, but in reality aren't the ones costing us the most money or truly jeopardizing financial stability.

People paid into the Social Security system over the years, but for a number of reasons, that money was not set aside as was originally intended. Therefore, the system paid benefits out of current tax collections and continues to do so today. Now that there are a lot of retirees (the Baby Boomer generation is at retirement age now), the incoming tax revenues do not cover outgoing benefits payments. The reserve funds are basically an IOU from one part of the government to another, which is repaid by borrowing against the future.

The same group of people (retired Baby Boomers) that complain the most vocally about lazy people collecting Food Stamps bankrupting the nation are the people that refuse to allow any tweaks to the Social Security system to fix the shortfalls resulting from the money that they squandered over the last four or five decades...

 

[Dr. Righteous]

Entitlements are a factor, but more specifically, the two largest are healthcare and Social Security. Healthcare (Medicaid, Medicare, etc.) are about a quarter of the federal budget last I knew. Social Security, which includes retirement benefits, disability benefits and supplemental income benefits, adds another quarter of the federal budget. Safety net programs like SNAP (used to be Food Stamps) and HEAP are somewhere around 10% of the federal budget. These are the programs that are most often demonized as the scourge of America, but in reality aren't the ones costing us the most money or truly jeopardizing financial stability.
People paid into the Social Security system over the years, but for a number of reasons, that money was not set aside as was originally intended. Therefore, the system paid benefits out of current tax collections and continues to do so today. Now that there are a lot of retirees (the Baby Boomer generation is at retirement age now), the incoming tax revenues do not cover outgoing benefits payments. The reserve funds are basically an IOU from one part of the government to another, which is repaid by borrowing against the future.
The same group of people (retired Baby Boomers) that complain the most vocally about lazy people collecting Food Stamps bankrupting the nation are the people that refuse to allow any tweaks to the Social Security system to fix the shortfalls resulting from the money that they squandered over the last four or five decades...

The problem with Social Security has LITTLE to do with the old age pension aspect which it was originally intended for. IT is the DISABILITY that is so easily gamed that as become a WELFARE program.

This article in Forbes is a couple years old but it nails it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...billion-a-year-disability-industrial-complex/


One reason I like Rand Paul is because he has been on this issue for years and not afraid of it because it is under the social security and critic will yell "You want to take away pensions!"

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/14/politics/rand-paul-disability/

 

[mlapgw]

Norse maintains the world’s largest dedicated threat intelligence network. Interesting or frightening to watch from time to time.

http://map.norsecorp.com/

 

[lcpiper]

How dare the Chinese Hack the US!

I mean the US has been the example of good cyber citizenship.

Just so your clear, and I expect you actually are. This isn't a new game, and the US isn't worse then other countries when it comes to privacy or open source intelligence operations. Hacking isn't new, surveillance isn't new, and only a very neive or foolish person would think that they aren't an absolute necessity. Unless of course youd rather trade in what we have for a single world government

 

[lcpiper]

While import tariffs/taxes would increase the price overall, it would apply equally to all businesses.

So today if that drill cost you $35 from Black and Decker and $37 for the Makida
Then tomorrow it will cost you $37 from Black and Decker and $39 for the Makida

Hardly catastrophic.

I don't get what you are taling about cause I don't think you understand what I said. What I said was there will be no Chinese made drill to buy at all. That the import of Chinese goods is halted, not additional duties applied.

How did you miss that from my post?

 

[lcpiper]

...er I think it's the other way around. US' GDP is probably under 1%, perhaps even in the negative. The entire american economy relies on low interest rates and mega corps extracting every penny off of the average Joe, who is lazier and dumber than the previous generations.

I just googled "united states of america gross domestic product 2013"

And I see a different result then you do.

USA 16.77 trillion USD

China 9.24 trillion USD

Can you explain the rather large discrepency ?

 

[lcpiper]

These are sanctions, not import tariffs.

So if they found Chinese company ABC Imports was behind a hacking case, for example, and they were placed on the OFAC list, any bank that wants to use dollars or do business in the US (or any US person, business, etc) must seize any funds they have, and block any future transactions with those parties or any parties 51% owned by those parties.

So bank balances, orders of goods, etc, all would be seized and held, and they wouldn't be able to use a significant portion of the international banking system any longer. It would not be a tariff on their goods, nor a complete prohibition of Chinese goods.

Except that the reality is that if Chinese company ABC Imports is behind a hack then Chinese company ABC Imports is a front for the Chinese Military who is the only Chinese entity permitted to do such things. You guys actually think China allows citizens or companies to engage in hacking? Yea, and they have a .38 cent bullet they will be charging your familly for too.

If someone is hacking from China then it's Chinese Military doing it.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

...Chinese company ABC Imports..

Huh, doesn't Google have like ABC whatever as their umbrella company now that they're spinning off their search, ads, and data mining into independent companies and stuff to keep people from being afraid of them? It would totally make sense that they have nefarious roots in China. I always thought that Eric Page creeper looked a little bit Oriental in his own way and Larry Surgery or whatever his name is seems disturbingly KGB in those pics where he's wearing Google Glass on a subway and freaking people around him out.

 

[TwistedAegis]

Hmmm... how would that not undercut US companies in the manufacturing of any given specific category of goods? Without the funds, without the commodities how can Chinese manufacturers guarantee that supply will remain constant?
And I haven't even mentioned the holding of the US debt by the Chinese.
At best, these sanctions would have to be 'surgical', extremely precise in order to not make things escalate between China and the US - I'm not talking about armed conflict here!

It doesn't prevent a non-sanctioned Chinese company stepping in and providing the same goods and services. I'm not saying there won't be any disruption, but it isn't anywhere near a 100% halt of doing business in China, only with certain companies which will likely quickly fold and new companies step into their place.

And yes, I agree they will have to be surgical, if they even occur, which I honestly doubt as it would be a serious escalation of hostilities between our countries.

Except that the reality is that if Chinese company ABC Imports is behind a hack then Chinese company ABC Imports is a front for the Chinese Military who is the only Chinese entity permitted to do such things. You guys actually think China allows citizens or companies to engage in hacking? Yea, and they have a .38 cent bullet they will be charging your familly for too.

If someone is hacking from China then it's Chinese Military doing it.

Yeah, I get that, but I highly doubt they're going to directly sanction Chinese military officials or organizations.

That being said, if there are significant funds held in international institutions, it could still be a significant blow. That's also probably a reason why this was leaked; I'd put money that as soon as this news was leaked, you saw a shit ton of Chinese money leaving G7 banks and going back home. So even if sanctions were put in place, the damage will be minimized.

That being said, the loss of face is taken very seriously in China, so even if the real damage is minimal, selling them on that reality vs the public perception isn't something they seem to usually like.

 

[maverikv]

LOl @ China redeeming their treasuries. What a poor grasp of economics.

 

[lcpiper]

Maybe the threat, and counter actions it invokes, is enough damage?

 

[TwistedAegis]

Maybe the threat, and counter actions it invokes, is enough damage?

I think so. Even the threat of it at this point is a pretty serious step, IMO, and it sets the stage for some serious conversations while the Chinese are visiting. Since it's an unofficial leak, I would think it gives the administration some bargaining leeway to dance back and forth on it to try and push them where we want them to go.