UPS Shutting Off

Discussion in 'Power Supplies' started by PiERiT, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. PiERiT

    PiERiT 2[H]4U

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    Maybe not the right subforum for this but I couldn't find anything appropriate.

    I have a relatively new (<6mo) TrippLite UPS rated for 300w. Had no problems with it until about 1~2 weeks ago when it beeped and turned off and cut power to everything in the Battery Backup ports. Everything else in my house remained powered on, as did everything in the Surge Protection ports.

    I thought maybe it was overloaded so I unplugged everything except my projector (which is 250w at its max) and turned it back on and ran a self test and everything was fine. Thought that fixed it but it just happened again 5 minutes ago.

    Any ideas before I replace it?
     
  2. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Anything plugged into it have active PFC?
     
  3. PiERiT

    PiERiT 2[H]4U

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    I'm not sure. The only thing I have in a battery backup outlet is a BenQ HT3550 which is really new and does not have a lot of info available. Is there an easy way to tell?
     
  4. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    So it comes down to one of two things:

    It’s overloaded and shutting down on that
    Or
    It’s broke

    I am willing to bet that projector surges high enough that it’s overloading the UPS. 300W is a small unit

    Keep in mind the real limit on a UPS is VA, not watts, and something can pull low watts but high VA.
     
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  5. Kwaz

    Kwaz Whine & Cheezy

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    As Brian_B mentioned, unplug the projector from the UPS. You really don't need a projector on a UPS anyways.

    If you unplug the projector does it still shut down?
     
  6. PiERiT

    PiERiT 2[H]4U

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    That's the only reason I have it. :(

    Is sudden power loss no longer a big problem for projectors? It takes like two minutes to fully shutdown in a normal scenario, and the fan runs during those two minutes. There is no instant off feature on this model.
     
  7. Kwaz

    Kwaz Whine & Cheezy

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    I honestly don't know. I've never owned a projector and only used one a handful of times.

    Those new laser projectors seem pretty cool though!
     
  8. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] Admin Staff Member

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  9. PiERiT

    PiERiT 2[H]4U

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  10. ng4ever

    ng4ever Flaccid 4Evar

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    I have a BenQ HT3550 too connected to UPS.

    No problems here.
     
  11. pitingres

    pitingres [H]Lite

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    You could hook up the UPS port to their power management app and see if the UPS is trying to log anything. I suspect it might be a combination of being slightly undersized, the trip circuits might be off spec a little bit on the low side, and the projector drawing a bit more its rating.
     
  12. PiERiT

    PiERiT 2[H]4U

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    What model UPS? I may just buy that so I know it'll work, vs putzing around with this one and risking more power losses on the PJ.
     
  13. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    Sudden shutdowns of projectors is hard on the bulb and anything else in the hot zone. The fans run for a period of time after the bulb is powered off to cool everything down to safe levels. The older halogen/xenon lamps are more tolerant to heat, but newer LED types are very intolerant to heat and are rapidly damaged by overheating.
     
  14. PiERiT

    PiERiT 2[H]4U

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    That's what I thought. I moved the projector to a regular port, not a battery backup port, and it hasn't happened since. But I've no idea what to do to fix it and don't want to splurge on a new UPS unless I'm sure it'll work.
     
  15. EchoWars

    EchoWars Limp Gawd

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    Buy a UPS from someplace with a liberal return policy...
     
  16. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    Or do some scrounging around in second hand shops. People throw away perfectly good UPSes all the time because the batteries went bad and they didn't know they were replaceable.

    I have a 1500VA APC that I picked up from the junk yard several years ago for $5 with bad batteries. It cost $70 in batteries and a bit of time to rebuild the pack module, but well worth it considering the UPS itself was worth $450.

    I recently got another rack mountable 1500VA unit with the same problem, dead batteries. I popped three new batteries in it and it works great.

    I haven't bought a new UPS in over a decade.
     
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  17. Furious_Styles

    Furious_Styles [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is excellent advice! Wish I had thought of that a year ago or so. And hopefully the one I bought lasts a decade like yours.
     
  18. GiGaBiTe

    GiGaBiTe Gawd

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    Something I forgot to mention, is the unit 300W or 300VA? Volt amps are not the same thing as watts. Volt amp measures apparent power, while watts measures real power. The maths can get a bit complicated, but basically the worse the power factor, the lower the conversion into watts.

    If you have a 300VA unit and something with an absolutely horrific power factor, like a capacitor dropper commonly used in LED bulbs, you have basically no capacity. Throwing a random value out there, like a power factor of .35 (a really poorly designed cap dropper), you'd only be able to have a 105W load on it. But switching to something like a purely resistive load like an electric heater with a near unity power factor of 1, you'd have a 300W unit.

    And maintaining your UPS can make it last for decades. The number one killer of UPSes are dead batteries left in units too long. The charging circuitry gets confused when the battery stops charging properly and will keep pumping current into the batteries, eventually causing them to bulge and rupture. The current draw can get high enough to damage the charging circuitry in addition to the unit from acid leakage.

    Replace the batteries every 2-3 years, even if they appear to be good to avoid trouble.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  19. PiERiT

    PiERiT 2[H]4U

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    I believe it's 550VA/300W and only 6mo old.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  20. ButtonPuncher

    ButtonPuncher Limp Gawd

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    I'd connect the UPS to a PC, install the management app (PowerAlert for Tripplite, Powerchute for APC) and see how much power that the projector is using and the estimated runtime. (Only plug the projector's power in to the UPS, not the PC. You only want to measure the projector's power draw.) I'm guessing that the UPS is too small. For example, a typical PC with two monitors, the smallest UPS that I will use is a 750VA model. Like a Eaton 3S 750. They come with a 35WPC battery which means that it is rated to run 35 watts per cell for 15 minutes. A 12V gel cell battery has 6 cells so it will run 210 watts for 15 minutes.

    I've had bad luck with new APC UPS's recently. I bought a 1500XS and it had a bad battery. It was a few months old, it went to do a weekly self test, everything shut off and it went in to alarm mode with a long continuous beep. It had two batteries, one was bad but because they are wired in series (for 24 volts), the UPS died.

    You could also test your UPS's runtime. Either use the UPS's app to determine how much that your projector is using or get a P3 Kill-a-watt to measure the power draw. Find something that draws approximately the same power. The one fun "variable" test load is a couple strings of old-school C7 or C9 Christmas lights. (Not the new LED versions but the ones with the bulbs that get hot.) They draw about 120-150 watts per string. Daisy chain strings (plug them in end-to-end) til you get the power draw that you want. You can unscrew bulbs to vary the power draw until you get it close to what you want your test load to be. Unplug the UPS from the wall, start a stopwatch and let it run til it dies.

    Like others have said, eBay is a great place to buy cheap but good UPS's. I've got a big APC Smart-UPS 2200VA unit for my home server rack and paid less than $200 for it. It uses four 12V, 18AH batteries and will run a 600W load for an hour.

    I also only use true sinewave UPS's for sensitive equipment like home theater and audio gear. A standard (cheap) UPS uses a modified sinewave (aka stepped square wave) that is really bad for delicate electronics. All of the APC Smart-UPS models are true sinewave. Just read the fine print and it'll say what it is.

    BTW, the heavier the UPS, the more capacity and runtime that you will get. Transformers have copper and iron in them. The bigger the transformer, the more capacity (VA or watts) that you will get. Batteries have lead in them. The more lead, the more runtime. For instance, I've had cheap UPS's comes with batteries that are 12V 7AH that have the same physical size of the 12V 9AH (35WPC) batteries that I typically use. The 7AH batteries are around 4.5lbs, the 35WPC (Enersys NPX-35) are a hair over 6lbs. Sure enough, the 7AH batteries runtime was terrible compared to the 35WPC batteries.

    HTH,
    BP
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  21. tedych

    tedych Limp Gawd

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    Just to be on the fair track - stepped sinewave ups'es like all line-interactive, run their output off the wall voltage (with any filtering and the avr) which is sinewave. Only when mains goes off do the ups output the awful stepped square. Depending on the frequency of the blackouts stepped sinewave could be just Ok. Well, I do avoid such Ups'es myself whenever possible though.
     
  22. ButtonPuncher

    ButtonPuncher Limp Gawd

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    True but I really don't recommend running an expensive AVR or display off of anything that isn't a true sinewave. Even if it may only be powered by it for short durations.

    I'd equate a modified sinewave UPS to running your gasoline powered car on diesel. It may run but it's not going to be good. A true sinewave UPS is like changing to an auxiliary tank of gasoline. Your car doesn't know that anything has happened.

    True sinewave UPS are now not that much more expensive than modified sinewave...

    $120 - CyberPower CP850PFCLCD
    https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16842102131

    $150 - APC BR1000MS
    https://www.newegg.com/apc-br1000ms-4-x-nema-5-15r-6-x-nema-5-15r/p/N82E16842301698
     
  23. tedych

    tedych Limp Gawd

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    Sure, if one can get it, get a true sinewave.
    But... Although I have true sinewaves for more than 11 years now, blackouts were so rare (since then, what a coincidence)... that they are probably 5 minutes a year.
    And I wouldn't equate gasoline car to diesel. Rather a gasoline car to the same running off methane. Some parts of the engine are worn out faster but 5-10 minutes a year is nothing. So, if blackouts are infrequent AND the price tag difference is stiff, I'd probably get a good line-int non-sinewave. The thing is good line-ints are very often the sinewave ones.