Upgrading - completely out of the loop

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shadowbreaker513

[H]ard|Gawd
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Feb 15, 2005
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After having my graduation party today and tallying up the money I got from it, I've decided to do major overhauls to my computer. Right now, while working, tends to not be the most stable computer around, and is prone to quirkyness. I'm looking to upgrade it for college next year to be fairly reliable, hopefully no odd little problems, and still blazing fast enough to keep playing games for a while. My total cash amount available is a little over $1200, but I don't plan on spending all of it. I have no idea what's good anymore, but I have at least some thoughts in most categories, so I would greatly appreciate any help that could be given.

Processor -
No idea what the best bang for your buck processor is these days. I've been building with AMD since I started with computers, and am definitely more familiar with it, but I'm not adverse to going with an Intel based setup.

Motherboard - Obviously changes with what processor I go for, though I'm not sure what I should go for with either.

RAM - I'd need to get new RAM due to the shift to DDR2 with both potential cpu/mobo upgrades. Don't need amazingly tight timings or anything, just something reliable. I've been using patriot due to the high performance and low cost, but out of the 4 sticks of RAM I've bought from them, 3 have failed, including one that I got back from an RMA, so not surprisingly, I'm not too keen on buying that again.

Hard drive - satisfied in this areas.

Video card - Right now I have a 2 month old fresh from the factory 7950GT that I got from an RMA of my 7900GT. My first thought was to buy a second and toss them both in SLI, but I'm not sure how close DX10 is looming on the horizon, and afaik, the cards aren't DX10 compliant, so I figure I may get screwed down the road with them.

Case - while I am quite satisfied with my current case for looks, it's a bit small and cramped, hell, right now my radiator is sitting on my desk as there is no room inside. I'm looking for something that, while not overly gaudy, still has at least a little flash to it, while being able to house a CoolerMaster aquagate mini 120mm comfortably.

Optical Drive - Fine with mine for now, if I want to upgrade I'll wait a bit for the hddvd/blue ray battle dust to die down a little.

Sound card - Mine is old and showing its age prominently. I use pretty much exclusively headphones, so having a card optimized for 5.1 or 7.1 doesn't really matter to me. I love my music, so I'd like to get something that has fairly high musical quality and be fairly decent for gaming as well, while not having to shell out an insane amount of money for it.

OS - I've heard some pretty negative things about Vista in general, especially that it's horrendous if you intend to do any decent amount of gaming, but it seems to give more future upgrade compatibility over xp, so I'm completely at a loss at what to pick.

I'm a bit lost when it comes to hardware nowadays, so I would much appreciate any input or help in any of these categories.
 
A system ~$1000 will be quite fast(especially when the E4300 is OCed):

CPU: $114 E4300 - You could spend more on an E6320/6420 to get the extra cache, but the E4300 will OC easier and possibly higher due to the higher multiplier(9x in the E4300 and 7x and 8x for the E6320 and E6420 respectively). An OCed E4300 performs very well, just check out this review.

MB: $99 Gigabyte S3 - Very good motherboard. Proven stable and overclockable. This board's only flaw is the lack of solid capacitors.

RAM: $143 2GB Mushkin XP - Proven 100% Micron D9GMH chips. These perform the best, and OC the best.

PSU: $130 Corsair 520HX - Quiet, powerful and reliable(~40A on 12V rail). What more could you want?

Sound: $68 M-Audio Revolution 5.1 - One of the best sound cards for movies, music and gaming. Good price and digital capability.

GPU: $290 eVGA 8800GTS320 - This card is DX10 capable and OC's like champ(especially with the new A3 core). Resolutions up to and including 1680x1050, this card will beat anything out there short of a GTX. However, if you are planning to future proof(which is bullshit, no such thing), then consider getting the GTS640 for DX10 games possibly will consume more VRAM.

Case: $130 Antec P180 - Great airflow and designed with the guy from SPCR. Quiet, roomy and elegant.

Hope this helps.
 
Not necessarily looking into a whole system, I'm quite satisfied with my current PSU atm.

As for the processor, while that one does seem to have potential, I am willing to sacrifice some performance for reliability, so I'm not planning on doing any bit of overclocking on this machine at all. Thanks for the advice on the other parts though. Any idea if the aquagate would fit in that case?

Also, for any people of the heavy case modding type, are there any cases that could be considered good "starter" cases I guess you could say? Something that could easily be carved up as a first project?
 
It could perhaps be considered a waste of money not overclocking a C2D because they can go so high and still be stable, but anyway if your happy with your current PSU spend the money on a better CPU.
 
So I'm guessing it's almost a requirement at this point in time to go wtih a DX10 card? How is vista stacking up in terms of games and things? I've heard almost exclusively negative things about it. Also, is AMD even on the map when looking at an upgrade or are most new purchases for performance exclusively Intel?
 
If you absolutely refuse to overclock, go AMD high-end. It's less expensive than Intel high end and comparable before you overclock...

Then again, considering that most of the current Intel chips will happily OC 25%+ on stock cooling and 50%+ on aftermarket cooling perfectly stable with only a minimal bump to vcore, as others have said, it's really something of a waste to not use all that potential.

Paying for high-end Intel seems almost silly when you consider that an OC'd E6420 (2.13Ghz stock) that runs around $180-190 should OC to 3.2Ghz+ easily with a $40-50 aftermarket cooler... and a 2.93Ghz stock chip will set you back over $1000 last I checked. So you save $700. Will the stock 2.93Ghz chip go higher? Sure. Do you need to go higher? Doesn't seem that way right now. And on water, there are E6420's nearly 4Ghz. The E4300 is also a solid 'budget' choice, but I'd personally spend the money for the E6420 (and I did).

DX9 should last another year or so (some say 2, some say 3, but a year seems to be a fair bet) via paths in newer games. It won't look as shiny, but if you're willing to replace your card in 6-8 months I would say stick with the single 7950GT for now, don't spend the cash on a second for SLI, and when it's too slow to deal with, replace it with a 9xxx series Geforce or an 8800 on the cheap(er). That'd be when I plan to pick up my second GTX.

I don't know what the power requirements will be for the next generation, but were you to get another 7950 (which again, I do not recommend -- too expensive, you could go DX10 for not much more, if any more) you'd need a new PSU. Your current PSU should be OK with a single 8800GTX, but could not handle 2. If you think you may ever go SLI again, you should consider replacing it. A PC Power and Cooling Silencer 750 Quad runs about $200. The higher end (700+ watt) Thermaltake Toughpower line is also something to consider. OCZ's supplies seem hit or miss anymore -- some models ok, some not, just like Thermaltake and the "only buy Toughpower" due to actual OEM situation -- so I wouldn't buy OCZ again without looking in to that. This is /the/ place to go for PSU reviews. That, and the [H] of course.

RAM: Any DDR2-800 will do fine for you. G.Skill tends to be good stuff, and cheap. Lower timings are better than faster clocks in most situations, so getting some 4-4-4-12 CAS 4 DDR2-800 sticks will do you a lot more good than lower end DDR2-1066 or something. You can run a E6420 @ 3.2Ghz (8x400, or FSB of 1600Mhz in Intel-speak, stupid 'quad pumped' business) with the RAM at a 1:1 multiplier and it's running native DDR2-800 like it was with the proc at 2.13Ghz..

Don't agree with the above motherboard choice at all. As of right now I see only 2 options -- P35 based boards for guaranteed support of the newer 45nm process CPUs over the horizon, and 680i based boards, for SLI support and /potential/ (but unconfirmed) 45nm CPU support. The 680i's tend to be more expensive -- a good 680i board will run you $200-250. A P35 based board can be had for $150+. If you go 680i, go EVGA for customer support reasons. If you go P35... I don't know so much about them, aside from that they appear to overclock well enough.

There are multiple revisions of the 680i boards from EVGA, so here's how they break down:
122-CK-NF68-A1 -- Highest end package, all the SATA cables and the like included, lifetime warranty, will OC quad cores.
122-CK-NF68-T1 -- Mid range. Most SATA cables included, 2 year warranty, will OC quad cores.
122-CK-NF63-TR/AR -- same package differences as above, but will not OC quad cores. Older revision of the board with internal timing issues while running quads. Will run them at stock speeds but will not OC them. OCs dual cores just fine, so if you plan to replace motherboard and CPU together in the future again but want SLI now you can save money here. $150 or so for the NF63-TR.
 
silent-circuit said:
Then again, considering that most of the current Intel chips will happily OC 25%+ on stock cooling and 50%+ on aftermarket cooling perfectly stable with only a minimal bump to vcore, as others have said, it's really something of a waste to not use all that potential.
Click to expand...

I'd go so far as to say that you can go +50% with a stock cooler and +100% with a good aftermarket cooler with a 4300 / 6320 / 6420.

This isn't like the old days of overclocking - Intel's chips are basically coming off the fab identical. They only slow certain chips down because there is a market for slower chips...
 
calebb said:
I'd go so far as to say that you can go +50% with a stock cooler and +100% with a good aftermarket cooler with a 4300 / 6320 / 6420.

This isn't like the old days of overclocking - Intel's chips are basically coming off the fab identical. They only slow certain chips down because there is a market for slower chips...
Click to expand...

I would not go that far. People are having trouble getting to 100% OC on good water cooling setups (no I am not referring to my POS Thermaltake Silentwater ;) ) so that seems very unrealistic. On the other hand, 50%+ is a "standard" OC. As with all OCs, your mileage may vary. There are "good" and "bad" chips out there, as always.
 
If it was my money I'd keep the video card you have as long as its playing the games you want and upgrade when it become necessary.
RAM - See this thread looks like a nice deal! Cruise through the Hot Deals section it seems like there is one everyday.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1200406
Processor- E6420
MB- DS3 or the S3 are popular choices but I'd go w/ Silent on that subject.
Case- I love my antec 900 and I also loved my friends Enermax http://computers.pricegrabber.com/cases/m/22032786/ If I had it to do over I'd have gotten the Enermax its very quite looks nice and has some cool features and is cheaper.
Sound Card- No audiophile here so I use onboard sound.
 
After reading on it a bit, the latest batch of Intels seem to be able to pull insane overclocks and still keep stable, so I think I will go with that. My computer room is extremely cold year round (Rarely breaking 60-65F in the summer, some winter mornings I've had my computer ambient temp in the 40s), and I have a lower end but still competent water cooling setup, so I should be able to do some fun stuff with it. Right now this is what I'm looking at

CPU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16819115016
Motherboard - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16813188019
Memory - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16820146108 x2

I think that's the same Mushkin, or at least similar, that was suggested earlier. And since ram is cheap as hell right now and this is the most upgrade money I'll have for a while, I may as well spring for 4 gigs worth.

If anyone has any input on those and they all seem well enough together and I'll be able to get a good overclock out of them, I'll go ahead and order tonight.

As for the rest of the stuff. The most important thing for me in a case right now is that it can fit my 120mm radiator from my Aquagate mini. The Lanboy I have right now does not offer enough clearance between the motherboard and the back fan slot to fit it in (rough estimate has me at needing about 2 inches between the screw holes and the highest part of the part of the motherboard with the usb/sound/ethernet connects). Should I stick with my trusty old copy of XP, or go for Vista, keeping in mind this will be probably around 70% gaming with school work thrown in on top of it?

As for future upgrades, I think I'll keep my current video card for now, as it still packs some power, and then mabye around Christmas jump onto a DX10 card once the game options become a little more fleshed out.
 
I personally would stick with XP until you get a DX10 card.

Where do you live to get those cold temperatures?
 
shadowbreaker513 said:
If anyone has any input on those and they all seem well enough together and I'll be able to get a good overclock out of them, I'll go ahead and order tonight.

As for the rest of the stuff. The most important thing for me in a case right now is that it can fit my 120mm radiator from my Aquagate mini. The Lanboy I have right now does not offer enough clearance between the motherboard and the back fan slot to fit it in (rough estimate has me at needing about 2 inches between the screw holes and the highest part of the part of the motherboard with the usb/sound/ethernet connects). Should I stick with my trusty old copy of XP, or go for Vista, keeping in mind this will be probably around 70% gaming with school work thrown in on top of it?

As for future upgrades, I think I'll keep my current video card for now, as it still packs some power, and then mabye around Christmas jump onto a DX10 card once the game options become a little more fleshed out.
Click to expand...

It's a good board, but as I stated, it will not OC quad cores. Please keep that in mind -- don't want you to buy something and then try to swap processors in 4, 5 months when the quads get cheap and be angry with me. ;)

XP will be fine for now, I think -- unless you want to play Shadowrun, Halo 2, and any other "Vista only" games. There are supposedly workarounds being figured out, anyway.

I don't know what cases will fit the Aquagate mini -- the P180B has enough clearance for the radiator on my Silentwater, but from your description you'd need more. Kind of limits your options.
 
RoBo said:
I personally would stick with XP until you get a DX10 card.

Where do you live to get those cold temperatures?
Click to expand...
I live in Maryland, but my computer room is in the basement. Not much insulation in the room, just drywall over the concrete foundation on one side, and behind the concrete is dirt. Also has tile floors and only 1 ground level window at the top. My own little cave ^_^

I got some pictures of the size of the cooler, and the space where it would go now. As I found out, if I turn it, it fits in in terms of relation to the motherboard, but it's too close to the PSU on the top, so it misses the screw holes a tiny bit, I figure another inch or so of clearance on the top would have it fit.
http://shadowbreaker513.freepgs.com/Cooler room/DSC00870.jpg
http://shadowbreaker513.freepgs.com/Cooler room/DSC00871.jpg
http://shadowbreaker513.freepgs.com/Cooler room/DSC00872.jpg
http://shadowbreaker513.freepgs.com/Cooler room/DSC00873.jpg
http://shadowbreaker513.freepgs.com/Cooler room/DSC00874.jpg

Unfortunately, I think I may have killed something when taking the pictures. Even though it's always been sitting on the edge of my case, I guess because of the thunderstorm outside in the air, there was a bit more electricity in the air than normal, and a spark jumped from the radiator casing to the case, and the computer shut off. When I let the power drain and tried to turn it back on, it flicked on for a second and then turned off. Letting the power fully drain for a half hour or so now to see if it fixes something >.<
 
That'll fit easily in a P180/P180B/P182. It's actually smaller than my Thermaltake 'system', which has a pump and small reservoir hanging off the bottom of a similarly sized radiator.

See:
machine-open.jpg
 
silent-circuit said:
That'll fit easily in a P180/P180B/P182. It's actually smaller than my Thermaltake 'system', which has a pump and small reservoir hanging off the bottom of a similarly sized radiator.
Click to expand...

Good to know. Any suggestions on how to fix the apparent short? Keep it plugged in, unplug it from the back? When I turn it on all the lights come on for a second and then turn off, and I get no response until I unplug the cord and plug it back in, in which case the same thing happens when I go to turn it on.
 
Thanks for all the help so far. As for the motherboard difference, I don't see myself upgrading the processor until probably this time next year, so depending on how many parts in my computer died from the spark, I may just settle on the cheaper one, however, if most things still seem to be working, I'll go with the NF68-T1. I would just like to confirm however, that I'll still be able to overclock fine using 4 gigs of ram in the computer.

The last question I guess I would have is of any high quality sound cards. The one I have is somewhat outdated and gives me microphone feedback issues. Looking for something that works extremely well with headphones, I use exclusively headphones, so cards that excel in 5.1 or 7.1 over headphones don't hold that much of a special appeal to me. I listen to music almost continually while I'm on the computer, so having one that can do music and game sounds well is important to me.
 
shadowbreaker513 said:
Thanks for all the help so far. As for the motherboard difference, I don't see myself upgrading the processor until probably this time next year, so depending on how many parts in my computer died from the spark, I may just settle on the cheaper one, however, if most things still seem to be working, I'll go with the NF68-T1. I would just like to confirm however, that I'll still be able to overclock fine using 4 gigs of ram in the computer.

The last question I guess I would have is of any high quality sound cards. The one I have is somewhat outdated and gives me microphone feedback issues. Looking for something that works extremely well with headphones, I use exclusively headphones, so cards that excel in 5.1 or 7.1 over headphones don't hold that much of a special appeal to me. I listen to music almost continually while I'm on the computer, so having one that can do music and game sounds well is important to me.
Click to expand...

Yep, I use 4x1GB with no problems at all (1.83GHz E6320 -> 3.2GHz)

And the onboard sound with the P5K Deluxe is nice! Digital coax & optical out - motherboard headers if your case supports front jacks for line in/mic/speaker. Sound quality is at least as good as my previous card - Audigy 2. (I used digital out in both cases w/ Logitech Z-680 speakers)

Asus is coming out with a pretty nice looking soundcard - I saw a pic of it on a WWDC page recently -
 
The X-Meridian if you're serious about sound quality -- I'd suggest you try the onboard first, see if it's good enough, and save the money just in case.
 
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