Upgrade GPU/s?

[Outlaw85]

Just as the title says. I am considering upgrading gpu's as they are starting to show their age.

The problem is I donno if I should just wait until I could do a full system build or not. If I am going to do full, it would be next year some time.

My current system is in my sig but I am running 8800GTS 640 in SLI. I don't play all the latest games but I do see some performance hits when turning up settings on games like ANNO 2070, FC 2, CS:S (depending on map/textures/scene), COD: MW.

I play (try to play) them at Med-High / High settings @ 720p on 23". I would plan to do the same thing I did with the 8800's. Unfortunately, I bought the first 8800 new and paid the premium at the time. I bought the second about 1yr ago for $50 shipped to get a little more HP.

I am looking to buy a card that won't break the bank that will do at least tri-sli so I could do like I did with the 8800's. My board supports tri-sli (8x x3), but I am maxed on supported CPU (only because of BIOS) and RAM.


Hope that wasn't too much rambling.

Thanks,
Outlaw

 

[dragonstongue]

why go triple card when a single will still do what you need it to? Multi-monitor or single?

560Ti-560 448 core-Radeon 7950 or GTX680 would all be wicked good choices and considering the cost of triple cards, should be well withing budget. Triple Sli I believe would have to be x70 or x80 models i.e 570-580-680 etc, the Radeon x650 or x670 models allow quad CF 7850-7870-7950-7970 as examples.

 

[thrgk]

I would go 7950 if i were use, can overclock nicely, $100 less then 7970, and gives great performance, however for $500 you can go 680, and get 7970 performance.

 

[allen5055]

I would wait for the 7970 price drop or get the 680. If you want to go trifire it doesn't make sense to go with old cards when the new ones are so much better and consume less power.

If you do want to go trifire just buy a coupld of unlocked used 6950's from the trade forum. $220 each

 

[txsizzler]

Would his 9450 CPU be a bottleneck?

 

[Outlaw85]

why go triple card when a single will still do what you need it to? Multi-monitor or single?

560Ti-560 448 core-Radeon 7950 or GTX680 would all be wicked good choices and considering the cost of triple cards, should be well withing budget. Triple Sli I believe would have to be x70 or x80 models i.e 570-580-680 etc, the Radeon x650 or x670 models allow quad CF 7850-7870-7950-7970 as examples.

I believe the 470+ support it. I wouldn't be looking to buy 3 right off the bat. I would be looking for long term like I did with my current system. I would likely buy 1 now and upgrade as needed down the road to finally running a tri-sli setup as it would be cheaper then just upgrading to the latest every year.

I would go 7950 if i were use, can overclock nicely, $100 less then 7970, and gives great performance, however for $500 you can go 680, and get 7970 performance.

I would hope to not spend $500 on a single card. The 8800 I have now was 400 and I don't know how I feel about spending that or more again on a single component.

I would wait for the 7970 price drop or get the 680. If you want to go trifire it doesn't make sense to go with old cards when the new ones are so much better and consume less power.

If you do want to go trifire just buy a coupld of unlocked used 6950's from the trade forum. $220 each

I would need to upgrade my board if I went tri-fire or even x-fire as I have an nvidia board.

Would his 9450 CPU be a bottleneck?

This is another concern, This CPU has been awesome since upgrading it also about 1yr ago over my C2D E6600. If I am going to bottleneck horribly, I think it would be better to just wait and do a full build, no?


Thanks for the quick replies,
Outlaw

 

[SolitaryOne]

i personally would wait and do a full rebuild when the Ivy bridge i7's come out. but there is no saying that you cant upgrade your GPU now and buy the rest of your system later

 

[Pylor]

i personally would wait and do a full rebuild when the Ivy bridge i7's come out. but there is no saying that you cant upgrade your GPU now and buy the rest of your system later

This, you can always buy a new graphics card and shove it in your new system when you build it. Not like you're going to be getting rid of all your 8800s are you? I kept my 8800gtx around just because it was the first ever massive (and high end) card I ever bought. Keep one of the 8800s and just shove it back in the computer when you end up buying a new one.

Your PSU definitely gets a full workout if you really have 3 of those going in the same computer.

Also, I've always found the "so I can upgrade later" argument for SLI/crossfire to be superfluous; if you don't need the power now, by the time that you do it'd probably just be a better option to get something new instead of buying another card to do sli/crossfire. Not always true, but in my experience it has been most of the time.

 

[Outlaw85]

i personally would wait and do a full rebuild when the Ivy bridge i7's come out. but there is no saying that you cant upgrade your GPU now and buy the rest of your system later

That is part of the dilema, a full build wouldn't happen til next year (tax return? lol) which then, who knows what will be out there and if it will make the gfx bottleneck. lol stupid technology.

This, you can always buy a new graphics card and shove it in your new system when you build it. Not like you're going to be getting rid of all your 8800s are you? I kept my 8800gtx around just because it was the first ever massive (and high end) card I ever bought. Keep one of the 8800s and just shove it back in the computer when you end up buying a new one.

Your PSU definitely gets a full workout if you really have 3 of those going in the same computer.

Also, I've always found the "so I can upgrade later" argument for SLI/crossfire to be superfluous; if you don't need the power now, by the time that you do it'd probably just be a better option to get something new instead of buying another card to do sli/crossfire. Not always true, but in my experience it has been most of the time.

Well, If I did a complete new build, I would keep it whole as a secondary for the rest of the family/kids or sell/part it out. Might even look to cram it into a smaller case for my "weekend lans" with co-workers. I wouldn't plan to use any of the 8800's in a new build.

Not sure how accurate any of them are but per the psu calculator at http://extreme.outervision.com, it shows a recommendation of a 539w psu which leaves quite a bit of headroom.. for now.
used:
CPU- 1x physical processor
MB- High End
CPU- Q9450 2.667 Yorkfield
CPU- 90% utilization
RAM- 4x DDR2 sticks
GPU- 8800GTS 640MB x2 + 8800GS 384MB
HDD- 3x regular SATA
ROM- 1x Blu Ray BD-RE/DVD/CD
PCI- TV Tuner-Cable
ACC- Fan Controller
FAN- 5x 120mm LED + 2x 120mm HP
LOAD- 90%
CAP AGE- NA

Minimum PSU Wattage: 489 W
Recommended
PSU Wattage: * 539 W


I do agree with the SLI option. Spending $50 to drastically improve performance in some cases was worth it IMO. I would have had to spend a minimum of 3x that to get anything worth the upgrade. At the time I was looking at the GTX460s which were in the 2xx range. Yes, I realize the 460 isn't even a comparison, but for the price, I couldn't really beat it.


Thanks
Outlaw

 

[dragonstongue]

460s even today are a wicked performance beast, they really are. But upgrading from dual 8800 to something more modern you are easily doubling it not more its performance. I would get a single card and see how you like it. Why waste $ on something you do not need?

If you really need something right now, the best cards for thier $ are Radeon 6870, GTX560Ti, Radeon 7850/7870, 560 448 core, then 7950 finally GTX680. It comes down to $/performance. any current "gaming" mid grade card will spank the cards you are using AND be much easier for your cpu to feed, and possibly less power if not much less heat produced overall.

I as an individual do not use multi-card, it can be beneficial for certain things, but then there is the things that do not scale properly or at all. I know alot of my buddies recently that WERE using very high end multi-card setups with very high end cpus started to filter off to single card use, mostly to avoid problems with newer games, heat/power usage etc. Again, if you do not have a direct need NOW for multi-card usage, I wouldn`t worry about it.

460s can be had for around $120 or so for thier best model(336 shader 1gb memory) the 550Ti though I wouldnt normally recomend is also fairly cost effective but the 560 non ti is just so much faster $115-$140 respectively.

Also, if you have the space for it, double your memory as long as its not to $. 8gb of memory even if you are not directly using it can make a big performance improvment, as can setting paging files correctly per drive being used, and setting partitions up, it will help things stay fast.

My personal recomendation is such. Get a single card for now that is in your price range, that will play smoothly at the resolutions that your looking for(which is 1680x1050 or 1920x1080???) if need be you can also overclock your cpu provided you have a decent cooler with it, most of the Q9xxx series with decent cooling can do 3.6 or higher clock speeds without killing anything, for your ram, I would use 1066ddr2 if possible, it can help attain those higher cpu speeds as well as a higher FSB which can make a vast performance improvment. Nvidia Geforce cards are very much reliant on a cpus base speed more then Radeons are.

The other option, wait a month or 2 for mid range Gefore 600 series to come out, should be April-August time frame, this should allow prices to stabilize some, and you should have a much better pick of possible choices.

Power http://techreport.com/articles.x/11830/9 for thier test system which may/may not be as power hungry as yours with single card being used, pegged around 250w so 600w(250+150+150) is a "rough" estimate. Single card modern, the same system might be loaded around 425w or less doing some very strenous loads.

just an example http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1038091478 8800 640x2--260 216 shader(260 is same if not faster in almost everything) a 460 or a 550ti would give same if not more performance then this jump, so is a good guesstimate.

 

[Outlaw85]

460s even today are a wicked performance beast, they really are. But upgrading from dual 8800 to something more modern you are easily doubling it not more its performance. I would get a single card and see how you like it. Why waste $ on something you do not need?

If you really need something right now, the best cards for thier $ are Radeon 6870, GTX560Ti, Radeon 7850/7870, 560 448 core, then 7950 finally GTX680. It comes down to $/performance. any current "gaming" mid grade card will spank the cards you are using AND be much easier for your cpu to feed, and possibly less power if not much less heat produced overall.

I as an individual do not use multi-card, it can be beneficial for certain things, but then there is the things that do not scale properly or at all. I know alot of my buddies recently that WERE using very high end multi-card setups with very high end cpus started to filter off to single card use, mostly to avoid problems with newer games, heat/power usage etc. Again, if you do not have a direct need NOW for multi-card usage, I wouldn`t worry about it.

460s can be had for around $120 or so for thier best model(336 shader 1gb memory) the 550Ti though I wouldnt normally recomend is also fairly cost effective but the 560 non ti is just so much faster $115-$140 respectively.

Also, if you have the space for it, double your memory as long as its not to $. 8gb of memory even if you are not directly using it can make a big performance improvment, as can setting paging files correctly per drive being used, and setting partitions up, it will help things stay fast.

My personal recomendation is such. Get a single card for now that is in your price range, that will play smoothly at the resolutions that your looking for(which is 1680x1050 or 1920x1080???) if need be you can also overclock your cpu provided you have a decent cooler with it, most of the Q9xxx series with decent cooling can do 3.6 or higher clock speeds without killing anything, for your ram, I would use 1066ddr2 if possible, it can help attain those higher cpu speeds as well as a higher FSB which can make a vast performance improvment. Nvidia Geforce cards are very much reliant on a cpus base speed more then Radeons are.

The other option, wait a month or 2 for mid range Gefore 600 series to come out, should be April-August time frame, this should allow prices to stabilize some, and you should have a much better pick of possible choices.

Power http://techreport.com/articles.x/11830/9 for thier test system which may/may not be as power hungry as yours with single card being used, pegged around 250w so 600w(250+150+150) is a "rough" estimate. Single card modern, the same system might be loaded around 425w or less doing some very strenous loads.

just an example http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1038091478 8800 640x2--260 216 shader(260 is same if not faster in almost everything) a 460 or a 550ti would give same if not more performance then this jump, so is a good guesstimate.

Thanks for the info.

I wasn't looking to do mutiple GPU off the bat though, just get something middle of the road, better performance and upgrade to multi later. Lately I have been getting into F@H, so the cards wouldn't go completely unused/wasted.

So far I haven't had any drawbacks to sli and did have a noticeable improvement over a single card.

Are you saying I should add another 8gb to my already 8gb? If so, I can't. My board only supports 8gb so I'm maxed. I am currently usign 1066 as well.

With the current setup and games played, I usually just play at 1280x720 or 1366x768. Playing games like anno would be beneficial but my cards stutter a bit at 720.

For the cpu, I have it and an H50 lapped for it with 2 high performance fans (up to 113cfm @ 5k rpm ea) in P/P. Even OC, would it be a bottle neck if I went all out and got a 6xx or 7xxx card? I assume it wouldn't with the GTX 4/5 series?

The only time I can think of really pushing everything to the max would be F@H but I can't say I have really done any testing.

The 460's are sounding like a good deal or save a little extra and get the 5 series. I think the 6 series are going to be out of reach even a month or so from now.


Thanks again
Outlaw

 

[Stayfr0sty]

For those games your current video cards should be fine.....

 

[Outlaw85]

They are OK.

Do they work? Yes
Do I have to upgrade? No
Will I upgrade tomorrow? No
Do I want to upgrade tomorrow? um... yes lol

The cards definitely get me by but are showing their age. I was just inquiring about upgrading the gfx vs entire system build. Prior to the q9450, i was looking at a cpu bottleneck if i got a new card, now looking at something newer yet, I was wondering if I was going to run into the same thing.

 

[dragonstongue]

Well, look at it this way, I have/had an core 2 E8400 which is one step below what you are using with 4 gb 1066 memory as well as a 4870 to 6870 graphics. I could play BF3 same settings I use now, there were times it got a little choppy for sure, but it could still play it. I was using 1680x1050 which def puts more load on the gpu then the cpu side.

1440x900 maybe 1680x1050 would be the limit of your current graphics cards, although with a newer card at some point you may want to look into getting a higher resolution monitor(s) to better use the gpu and cpu you have/will have.

The GTX560 non ti might be the best to go for in this extent. will your cpu be a bottleneck, if my E8400 clocked up as a dual core very rarely was a bottleneck with 4gb 1066, then your core 2 quad clocked up with 8gb memory should be even less so IMO, that is for single card use, I am not sure dual card, cause even the top cpus and motherboards are sometimes not able to give thier best due to various bottlenecks. but for single card at least, you should be plenty fine, I think its the resolution in your case more then anything.

with newer cards, something like a GTX580/680 7950/7970 would def be held back by the cpu, but for mid range single cards, I do not see an issue.

You mentioned F@H we do not yet know what the 6 series will be like in this regard, the 460(336 shader) or the 560/560Ti would be quite powerfull in this regard, and even more potent gaming wise.

I would OC your cpu some, maybe try to hit 3.4-3.8 somewhere in that range and get your FSB up some as well, your Q9450 may not clock as high as my E8400 EO stepping could(4.09 or so Ghz) but it should easily be able to get mentioned ranges, after all you have a very power cooler for that cpu.

I would get something like this (example) http://www.ncix.com/products/index....560 DC/2DI/1GD5&manufacture=ASUS&promoid=1211 http://www.ncix.com/products/index....i DCII/2DI/1GD5&manufacture=ASUS&promoid=1211
Easiest way to tell the 560s apart, the 560 non ti is 336 shader just like the best 460, the 560Ti uses 384 shader and the best 560 uses 448 shaders but is quite a bit more powerfull/expensive.

 

[257Tony]

Buy a good used card from the F/S section here. If you can spend $150 you'll get something that is much better than your current setup, and you can resell it in a year when you do your new build. I'd do something like a 6870 at $120-140, sell it in a year for $100. Consider it a $3 a month rental fee

 

[dragonstongue]

He said he doesnt want AMD mostly cause he wants SLI, or my recomend would also be a 6870(but new) for around the same $140 mark

 

[Outlaw85]

Well, look at it this way, I have/had an core 2 E8400 which is one step below what you are using with 4 gb 1066 memory as well as a 4870 to 6870 graphics. I could play BF3 same settings I use now, there were times it got a little choppy for sure, but it could still play it. I was using 1680x1050 which def puts more load on the gpu then the cpu side.

1440x900 maybe 1680x1050 would be the limit of your current graphics cards, although with a newer card at some point you may want to look into getting a higher resolution monitor(s) to better use the gpu and cpu you have/will have.

The GTX560 non ti might be the best to go for in this extent. will your cpu be a bottleneck, if my E8400 clocked up as a dual core very rarely was a bottleneck with 4gb 1066, then your core 2 quad clocked up with 8gb memory should be even less so IMO, that is for single card use, I am not sure dual card, cause even the top cpus and motherboards are sometimes not able to give thier best due to various bottlenecks. but for single card at least, you should be plenty fine, I think its the resolution in your case more then anything.

with newer cards, something like a GTX580/680 7950/7970 would def be held back by the cpu, but for mid range single cards, I do not see an issue.

You mentioned F@H we do not yet know what the 6 series will be like in this regard, the 460(336 shader) or the 560/560Ti would be quite powerfull in this regard, and even more potent gaming wise.

I would OC your cpu some, maybe try to hit 3.4-3.8 somewhere in that range and get your FSB up some as well, your Q9450 may not clock as high as my E8400 EO stepping could(4.09 or so Ghz) but it should easily be able to get mentioned ranges, after all you have a very power cooler for that cpu.

I would get something like this (example) http://www.ncix.com/products/index....560 DC/2DI/1GD5&manufacture=ASUS&promoid=1211 http://www.ncix.com/products/index....i DCII/2DI/1GD5&manufacture=ASUS&promoid=1211
Easiest way to tell the 560s apart, the 560 non ti is 336 shader just like the best 460, the 560Ti uses 384 shader and the best 560 uses 448 shaders but is quite a bit more powerfull/expensive.

Thanks for all the info. Don't know if I'll go the OC route. I didn't play with it much but with it at 2.8Ghz (2.66stock), was unstable. I don't remember if I changed anything else. I'll have to get into the BIOS again. Even with stock, its good to know I should be OK with RAM and CPU. My monitor does 1080P but because of game gfx and my preference for the games, I do 720(ish). 1080p with a 23" seems to make everything too small causing my eyes to hurt.

Buy a good used card from the F/S section here. If you can spend $150 you'll get something that is much better than your current setup, and you can resell it in a year when you do your new build. I'd do something like a 6870 at $120-140, sell it in a year for $100. Consider it a $3 a month rental fee

I've been looking through the F/S section. Still getting my post count up for that section, lol. It's not anyones fault but I am fairly picky on the card design. The ones I have looked in were non-reference with HS/F throwing heat into the case. I prefer them to go out the rear.

He said he doesnt want AMD mostly cause he wants SLI, or my recomend would also be a 6870(but new) for around the same $140 mark

If I just stick with 1 solid single card for the life of this build, AMD is OK. But I have 2 co-workers running xfire and both have come across issues with it and some of the games not working correctly because of it, ultimately causing them to disable xfire for the game which is useless then. I haven't had any issues with sli to this point. The other reason is my board is nvidia so sli only.

If I did a complete build, AMD wouldn't necessarily be out, just more of an nvidia guy i guess. Last time i used the other guys, was my ATI 9000 lol.



Thanks,
Outlaw

 

[Jorona]

If your running stock, your CPU will be a bottleneck on anything above a GTX460. If you push it to 3.2+ ghz, you should be able to get away with anything with little bottleneck. It really depends on the game in the end, like Starcraft 2 is far more CPU dependent then GPU vs Metro 2033 which requires a mess of GPU power.

45nm quad at 3.2ghz is approx an I3-2100. At 3.8+ its approx an I5-2400. You may run into problems with memory bandwidth, but I rarely have any issues, and you have a bunch more cache then me.

YMMV, but I doubt you'll have any issue driving a 560ti 448 which will smoke all the games you have listed. Thats where I would go.

 

[renji1337]

I agree with other posters, a 7950 would be good.

 

[extide]

So, if you are into folding, then stick with an nVidia card, they are much better at folding.

That cpu will DEFINITELY be a bottleneck, even when overclocked. Although, at ~3.6 it wont be as bad. You should look into overclocking it as you have an H50. You probably just need to give it a bit of voltage, give the northbridge a bit of voltage and set her to 400Mhz FSB and fine tune it from there it should do OK.

 

[dragonstongue]

I think it just comes down to fine tuning the CPU to get it stable, upping the FSB more then likely you will need to tone down the divider to make the ram stay close to its 1066 starting point, FSB up-memory divider down add voltage and LLC if you have the option, in the case of NB may or may not have that option. I was able to get my E8400 on a P5Q-E and a P5K vanilla to around the same level, the P5K did not play as nicely with the higher clocks and need ALOT of extra voltage then the P5Q-E needed. On both boards I did not have to play with any other voltage but the ram, and the cpu, all the other voltages were left at stock without issue. It is a good idea to lock the pcie to 100 though.

As far as the bottleneck thing, again personal experience with e8400 it truly did not hold my 6870 back at all, I was missing cores more then anything else, something his cpu lacks is a bit of clock speed cause it does have the cores. Again, clocking it up done smartly(lots of reading) will mitigate any bottleneck that may be there due to the cpu/fsb/ram which for the most part will be miniscule at best, again, prior experience with my own and a few freinds builds.

I have no experience with the mentioned game, just the ones I play, the hardest thumping and really reliant on raw cpu/gpu performance being BF3/Civ 5, with the same setup(gpu hard drive wise) but going from a dualE8400 clocked up to a quad(955 stock and overclocked) I only gained a rough 10fps average which is not that much. Though the higs are a touch higher and the lows are less frequent. I notice more raw performance opening the game, loading screens etc 4 cores that can load to 100% and sit around 60% and gpu at around 70% vs a dual core loaded at almost constant 95% and gpu 65-80% so if there is a defined bottleneck it was hard to see, I think it was lack of core TBH.

Anyways. CPU at 3.4-3.6-3.8 should be bumping performance quite a bit, and getting the FSB as high as it can go stable will also be very beneficial. I agree on the folding side, Nvidia cards at this point are just better optimized with current versions, AMD is catching up from new clients, but its missing quite a bit due to poor client optimization, bitcoin mining on the other hand, AMD cards truly trump Nvidia card by a large margin(properly optimized)
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All depends on the cash side, IF you wanted to SLI eventually( I personally go against that idea, its honestly a headache more often then not, NOT ALL games scale very well, not sure with folding) then a 560 non ti or 560ti would be your best bets, 550Ti is quite low cost, but is quite a bit slower for saving what $15 vs a 560 non ti. If you just want a good powerfull farily low cost card, the 6870, 7850 amd side will be more then you need.

You mentioned the 1080p hurts your eyes, it might have to do with the monitors you are using being small enough to begin with, though for a 23" 1680x1050 would be quite beneficial taking some load off the cpu and shifting it to gpu, and for the most part will also increase the performance the old or newer gpu is going ti give you in return. 1680x1050 is a break point for gpu loading, anything less and the gpu generally are not gaining thier benefit ESPECIALLY when you are talking SLI/CF.

On another note. CF depends on the games, depends on the cards, thier scaling when they scale is generally a bit better on average then what Nvidia gets with scaling, though, Nvidia does have more games it support then AMD at this point, but that has been changing lots over the last couple of years. Its preference thats all it really boils down to, and also depends on the $ you have to spend. If there was a "budget" to go by, it might make it easier to recomend.

560/560ti/560 448, 6850/6870/6950/7850/7870 are all excellent card, not to expensive, very good all around performance UNTILL really high resolution(5k type ) the power draw/temps are better with the 7k series then the 500 series cards and they do have more raw performance, however, are also more costly. $/performance is 560Ti or 6870 at this point(untill Nvidia gets the rest of Kepler aka 600 series cards out)

lots of things in here, srry I rattle on. If you need anymore help, I will be glad to help how I can. Though thats my advice, higher res number 1, number 2 clock the cpu up some and do alot of reading cause your cooler is def overkill for it to be running at stock, number 3 IF you go new card I wouldn`t be looking at a 400 series card unless you get a VERY good deal on it. The current $ for new cards is $110-$135-$180-$225-$280-$320-$350 just depends on what you have in the pocketbook

Also just to point something out. You may not want a gpu blowing heat back into the case, however, the best cooled gpu ALL do that, they end up much quieter, generally a very good margin better cooled, are usually factory overclocked, MUCH easier to keep clean. Theres nothing a quiet case fan wont solve getting the extra heat out