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"Ultimate" System

B

bsoft

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
268
I must say that I was a bit disappointed with the "Ultimate" systems. It's not that they're bad - the hardware in them is indeed top-notch. It's just that, for a system where money is no object, I would have expected:

- Dual Processor. A single Athlon 64 is good. Two Opterons is better.

- SLI. I know, it's not available in retail so it didn't make the guide, but it at least deserves a mention.

- Vapor-phase cooling. Watercooling is nice, but vapor-phase cooling just works better. An Athlon 64 FX-53 @ 2.9GHz is testament to that. The new 90nm Athlons can probably go higher.

- SCSI drives. Don't get me wrong, the Raptor is an excellent drive. However, it can't hope to compete with the latest 15K SCSI drives. The Raptor is only a better choice if price is a criteria, or if the heat generated by 15K SCSI drives is problematic.

- An Apple (yes, Apple) LCD. Who wouldn't want a 30" HD (2560 x 1600) LCD sitting on their desk? Better yet, get two. The new-generation Apple displays have a DVI input, so connectivity isn't a problem.


It's not that the system shown isn't a crazy-high-end system. But, if you ignore price altogether, you can build one heck of an insane system. At my office, we have a quad Opteron 248 system with 64 GB of memory. If it had an AGP slot, it would play a mean game of DOOM3. Or, rather, four of them at once.
 
Was it for gaming? If yeah, I doubt a dual processor would help....at all.
 
Yeah, it was meant to be a gaming system.

They do point out that you can easily spend more money but that this system is realistic.

There's a difference between "money no object" and "waste of money", for a general allrounder desktop dually is effectively pointless, as you say, SLI isn't availiable, vapourphase is "better" than water, but then refrigerating your entire house and moving it to alaska would be good for cooling too....
SCSI also great, but again the benefits for regular (and even most power) users don't scale anything like as rapidly as the cost.
I was also under the impression that those 30" Mac screens need some kind of fancy dual-dvi input that only Macs with a special 6800u card can do.

*edit*The card you need to drive the 30"monitor is called the 6800ultra/gt ddl, 600 bucks from the apple store, don't know if you can even put it in a PC*edit*
 
"refrigerating your entire house"
Uh... this is basically what central air conditioning is...

and I actually agree to a point with what the original poster has said, ultimate system, the title says it all... but it's misleading. an ultimate system would be more like what the person starting this thread was speaking of, and it would also have some solid-state hard drives for the OS... yes stupidly expensive, but that would be the point, it would be the ultimate system.

I dunno maybe I'm just picking at terms but it just seems they could have picked a better one for the article?
 
Im still wondering why there was not a dedicated sound card. Onboard is nice and all, but damn...
 
jaqie said:
"refrigerating your entire house"
Uh... this is basically what central air conditioning is...

and I actually agree to a point with what the original poster has said, ultimate system, the title says it all... but it's misleading. an ultimate system would be more like what the person starting this thread was speaking of, and it would also have some solid-state hard drives for the OS... yes stupidly expensive, but that would be the point, it would be the ultimate system.

I dunno maybe I'm just picking at terms but it just seems they could have picked a better one for the article?
Click to expand...

Heh, would you go to the expense of putting in AC just to keep your PC happy?

On second thoughts, don't answer that...

Yeah, "Ultimate" is a bit misleading, but following on from that logic why stop at 2 cpus, why not build a cluster?

Maybe it should have been called "Ultimate Practical System"

True story, at work, just to freak out our manager (proper old style IT manager with no IT background), we specced a single box (HP Proliant) that cost over $60,000, then told him we'd need 8 of them "for our SAN" (this was before we showed him the projected cost of the plumbing).
 
It's the Ultimate Gaming PC. Some explanations why the articles didn't go as you expected...

1) NO DUAL PROCESSORS!?!?-- Forcing a game to use both CPU's would require an extensive amount of additional programming. So many games out there (95%+) do not have dual processing support. Only so few does. Dual processing does not even matter in games.

2) NO SLI!?!!? - Well, [H] wants to list out what a reader can buy as of right now. But they acknowledged they didn't list it out by adding "it wasn't at retail as of this writing". You can always get them when they're widely available.

3) NO VAPOR CHANGE WTF?!?! - Does the average reader know how to set up a vapor change system? Not really. Of course, if you're advanced, why complain? You can set it up your own way. And I don't think vapor change is practical compared to good ol' water cooling that needs only so much maintenance. I think [H] is only trying to reach out to the large audience, not the very super leet part (consider yourself one then).

4) OMGZZZ NO SCSI'S EITHER?!! - One part I may agree on is why didn't they add SCSI... But if I remember a while ago, reading an article exposed the fact that the newer 7200 RPM hard drives were actually becoming faster and faster that 15 K SCSI drives were not even sensible enough to buy. And the latest 10 K is only getting closer to the 15 K drives with almost little difference that it's not *practical* to buy a 15 K SCSI. The difference can be at least 5% difference. Is it worth some hunded bucks for that 5%?

5) FFS NO SUPAR LCD'S!? - Apple's are dual LCD outputs... you'd have a hard time finding true dual LCD outputs on a video card, except a 6800 or ATI's (except their X800 XT All-In-Wonder line but where's that found!?). And well, if you're going to pick on price... dual 3,300 lcd's are not practical. You don't use dual displays for gaming. I can't think of a game for using dual displays really.

This is gaming. If you want power, then go for Ars Technia's SUPER PC... They have all the dual power goodness. Check that one out.

-J.
 
4) OMGZZZ NO SCSI'S EITHER?!! - One part I may agree on is why didn't they add SCSI... But if I remember a while ago, reading an article exposed the fact that the newer 7200 RPM hard drives were actually becoming faster and faster that 15 K SCSI drives were not even sensible enough to buy. And the latest 10 K is only getting closer to the 15 K drives with almost little difference that it's not *practical* to buy a 15 K SCSI. The difference can be at least 5% difference. Is it worth some hunded bucks for that 5%?
Click to expand...
hm. one advantage SCSI has over ATA/SATA is support for 15 devices per channel and high end cards can have up to 4 channels. I have a u160 64 bit card that caches and can have up to 128MB onboard... and has hardware raid 1/10/5/50 support... true cards like this can be expensive, but SCSI can do things STILL that IDE cannot, even SATA... my point is this: those 10k drives you tout just cant touch the performance of a high end SCSI array. Yeah the SCSI array costs a lot more, but its not meant for any but the most serious needs. I guess what I'm saying is, SCSI can still perform WAY THE HELL better then the 5% you quoted in certain configurations, configs that just arent possible with SATA at the moment. True, this is a bit OT but I constantly feel like people say SATA is plain better then SCSI and this is simply not true... it feels like this is what you are saying here, and again, I say, this is simply not true. in any case, I hope maybe you are a bit more educated now :) cheers and happy gaming!
 
You are all for dual opterons.
You are for phase change cooling for overclocking.

Do you see where the two of these run into problems? :rolleyes:
 
Talonz said:
You are all for dual opterons.
You are for phase change cooling for overclocking.

Do you see where the two of these run into problems? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Are we overgeneralizing a bit?
I never said I was for any type of processor let alone dual for a gaming system. you may want to stop flaming and start actually reading the thread...and maybe even start participating in a constructive manner!:eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
MartinX said:
Heh, would you go to the expense of putting in AC just to keep your PC happy?
On second thoughts, don't answer that...
Click to expand...
/me giggles.:D
check out the DC forum, people regularly have 'gardens' where they put in window AC units to keep their 'hobbits' from getting too hot, so there are people that actually do that...:D
 
jaqie said:

Are we overgeneralizing a bit?
I never said I was for any type of processor let alone dual for a gaming system. you may want to stop flaming and start actually reading the thread...and maybe even start participating in a constructive manner!:eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Well, if you read the original post, he lists a multi proc system, and also phase change cooling. There is no need for both.
 
jaqie said:

hm. one advantage SCSI has over ATA/SATA is support for 15 devices per channel and high end cards can have up to 4 channels. I have a u160 64 bit card that caches and can have up to 128MB onboard... and has hardware raid 1/10/5/50 support... true cards like this can be expensive, but SCSI can do things STILL that IDE cannot, even SATA... my point is this: those 10k drives you tout just cant touch the performance of a high end SCSI array. Yeah the SCSI array costs a lot more, but its not meant for any but the most serious needs. I guess what I'm saying is, SCSI can still perform WAY THE HELL better then the 5% you quoted in certain configurations, configs that just arent possible with SATA at the moment. True, this is a bit OT but I constantly feel like people say SATA is plain better then SCSI and this is simply not true... it feels like this is what you are saying here, and again, I say, this is simply not true. in any case, I hope maybe you are a bit more educated now :) cheers and happy gaming!
Click to expand...

I would like to know all the advantages (and disadvantages) there is for SCSI over SATA/PATA. I'm interested is all.

I would guess that the information I'm giving you is probably a little old. I've seen some newer updated 15K hard drives that seem to be sweeping up the competition now. But I haven't seen any latest 15K vs 10K vs 7.2K round up yet. Perhaps you can delight me with some? (Maybe my 5% is a little off, I was estimating it by memory of how I saw the %'s before (13.4 secs for SCSI and 17.5 secs for SATA/PATA).

I never said SATA was better than SCSI, I know it's a lot better. But SCSI is truly for the serious users, like you said. Servers, etc is the best position, though it couldn't hurt for a gaming PC to have one. :) And tell me why a gaming PC would want 10 freaking SCSI hard drives in their PC? As this guide goes... it's only practical to go with the more widely available hard drive that isn't too expensive like a total rip off (how you judge a "rip off" is entirely up to you...).

For some people's budget, their absolute maximum is 1 GB per dollar. Heh, what is it? 60 dollars for a 80 gb 7.2K drive (.75 cents per gb)? The raptor's is more like 2.3 dollars for each gb. That's getting a lil hard to cough up. Then the SCSI drives...? More like 7.3 dollars per GB. Whoa, talk about debt. <3 (Then again... this is an "ultimate gamers system" of course... Maybe Kyle and the editor can tell us why they chose a raptor over such a monsterous expensive thing...) ;)

-J.
 
ah. there is also no need for graphics in games. or a gui. but we have them because we want them. go get an 8088 with an MDA [text only] monitor and sell your main computer, then give away all the money you have except enough for very cheap food and rent and bills to charity... oh and move into a one room apartment because it's all you really need. Wait a minute, the human body can take extreme temperatures and can withstand sleeping on rocks, after all we did it for ages before we developed technology as a race, right? so get out of your apartment, and go caveman style up in the mountains because its all you need.

or maybe, just maybe, you WANT more then you NEED? like the person making this thread does?
 
The advantages that 15k drives offer as it relates to tremendous gains are not fully realized in a gaming environment
 
I'm deffently going to have to go with SCSI over SATA. No matter how you cut it. They are flat out faster. I'd like to see you get 9 drives running in raid 5 with SATA!!! Best I've seen in a PC based system is 5.

But to be honist if this is a computer that money is no object. SOLID STATE ALL THE WAY!

As for Duel CPU. While windows will run hella fast, I think only the Quake3 engien is the only thing that will use it. I've not heard word back ok HL2 I think Doom3 is coded. So that is to your own taste.

Problem with 2 CPU. You are going to run into HEAT problems. OK let use Phase change. NOT you would need 2 kits to support both prossesors. If you're really uber nuts I would perhaps say get a high end water system. Replace the rad with the cold plate from a phase change system and use CAR Radiator fluid at the normal 50/50 mix. Should keep things cool as well as keep that video card cold too.

Have fun.
 
jaqie said:

/me giggles.:D
check out the DC forum, people regularly have 'gardens' where they put in window AC units to keep their 'hobbits' from getting too hot, so there are people that actually do that...:D
Click to expand...

Just as I was typing the AC bit, It occurred to me that if I lived somewhere warmer I probably would put in AC just to keep my PCs happy.

In fact, I've spent much of today thinking: "well, summer is only 6 months away, and those sweaty 25degree days* we get here are a killer..."

My system is already mostly identical to the [H] "Ultimate" system, but now I'm thinking: "scsi would be a bit quicker..."

DAMN YOU [H], DAMN YOU STRAIGHT TO POVERTY!!!

*making that plural is possibly optimistic
 
GeForceX said:
...

5) FFS NO SUPAR LCD'S!? - Apple's are dual LCD outputs... you'd have a hard time finding true dual LCD outputs on a video card, except a 6800 or ATI's (except their X800 XT All-In-Wonder line but where's that found!?). And well, if you're going to pick on price... dual 3,300 lcd's are not practical. You don't use dual displays for gaming. I can't think of a game for using dual displays really.


-J.
Click to expand...

No, the 30" apple only uses one dvi input, but that socket is not a regular dvi socket as found on most high/mid-range cards it's a format called DVI Dual-link (DDL) which only two retail cards support, the nvidia gf6800gt DDL and gf6800ultra DDL, and I've only seen the ultra on sale, and even then in only one place.
 
Haha, no Power & Cooling PSU mentioned at all and no Audigy or Terratec DMX6 Sound Card! :-x! What happened...!

-J.
 
disappointing yes, i can understand some limitations since everything shown is available through newegg. but onboard sound?? comeon. same for the ram, why not go with the tccd since none of those boards afaik can do high voltage or at least toss in an ocz ddr booster so that bh5 can be actually used :)
 
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