![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Turning off your computer.
- Thread starter wassi
- Start date
Carnival Forces
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2003
- Messages
- 4,297
idk about roomers, but they're aren't rumors. they're true -- constant restarting of your components is bad for them - it's like shutting your car down every time you stop in stop&go traffic on a blocked highway
also, why the heck would you turn off your computer if it can FOLD! (http://www.hardfolding.com)
also, why the heck would you turn off your computer if it can FOLD! (http://www.hardfolding.com)
Nazo
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2002
- Messages
- 3,672
Ok, the RUMERS are somewhat true. It is a little tough on components going off and on (basically wear and tear on every motor involed.) HOWEVER, don't forget that being used is also tough on components thanks to the heat and everything. In general, it's a matter of just kind of factoring how long you would have been keeping it on for and how hot it runs (the cooler the better.) Chances actually are that turning it off IS better for the lifetime of the thing than leaving it on. And, beyond a doubt, things like folding, prime95, or etc are also going to decrease the lifetime because they push those components.
In the end, it is true that the components do usually last long enough even when pushed like that that it doesn't matter. If you aren't running your CPU in the upper 60C range with your MB and harddrives in the upper 30s, maybe lower 40s, chances are it's all going to last until you replace it anyway. (Might want to keep an eye on the harddrive a bit more, that component usually is kept longer -- at least, with my family we usually just keep the HD since you pretty well have to buy some super-expensive raptor or something to get noticably more than just greater capacity from a newer HD.)
BTW, the so called "hibernate" option saves your memory to the harddrive, then shuts off all power to your system, then, when you turn it back on it restores that save file. This is no different as far as lifetime of your components as shutting off normally, it's just a heck of a lot simpler sometimes when you want to shut down in a hurry (say a storm) and don't want to have to run to save everything first. Also, power saving modes are, just that, power saving. It shuts off or greatly decreases things (depending on the component and type of power saving used) allowing you to start up your system almost instantly (no slow loading from hibernation) but not really any better on the components than shutting off the power in most cases, in a few (such as the fans, which just wear with use rather than heat) the same as leaving it on.
Simply put, overall it's better just to keep shutting your system down when you won't be using it for really long periods of time (as in a lot of hours or even days.) If it's just going down a few minutes or just a couple of hours at the most, may as well leave it on.
In the end, it is true that the components do usually last long enough even when pushed like that that it doesn't matter. If you aren't running your CPU in the upper 60C range with your MB and harddrives in the upper 30s, maybe lower 40s, chances are it's all going to last until you replace it anyway. (Might want to keep an eye on the harddrive a bit more, that component usually is kept longer -- at least, with my family we usually just keep the HD since you pretty well have to buy some super-expensive raptor or something to get noticably more than just greater capacity from a newer HD.)
BTW, the so called "hibernate" option saves your memory to the harddrive, then shuts off all power to your system, then, when you turn it back on it restores that save file. This is no different as far as lifetime of your components as shutting off normally, it's just a heck of a lot simpler sometimes when you want to shut down in a hurry (say a storm) and don't want to have to run to save everything first. Also, power saving modes are, just that, power saving. It shuts off or greatly decreases things (depending on the component and type of power saving used) allowing you to start up your system almost instantly (no slow loading from hibernation) but not really any better on the components than shutting off the power in most cases, in a few (such as the fans, which just wear with use rather than heat) the same as leaving it on.
Simply put, overall it's better just to keep shutting your system down when you won't be using it for really long periods of time (as in a lot of hours or even days.) If it's just going down a few minutes or just a couple of hours at the most, may as well leave it on.
I think that having a CPU run in the 60c range all the time would be better than turning it on and off. I mean, if the CPU is at the same temp all the time than there is no expanding/contracting of the internal components, whereas turning it off results in a massive change in temperature which causes rapid contraction and causes thermal fatigue over time.Nazo said:
The best way to preserve the life of your components is not to use them.
Nazo
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2002
- Messages
- 3,672
Uhm, I was mostly kidding about the upper 60C thing. If it's running that hot, it won't last you very long if you are keeping it on...
I still have an old dual P3-500 system that a friend of my fathers had been using for many years and shutting off every time he was done. This thing was bought in the late 90s...
Temperature wasn't really an issue since it's a low end P3 and was never overclocked even a little (not actually even an option -- the board only does 66 or 100 for the FSB, no overclocking.)
I still have an old dual P3-500 system that a friend of my fathers had been using for many years and shutting off every time he was done. This thing was bought in the late 90s...
Temperature wasn't really an issue since it's a low end P3 and was never overclocked even a little (not actually even an option -- the board only does 66 or 100 for the FSB, no overclocking.)
lol, I didn't think that you were kidding; I've been hanging around the Intel sub-forums too much latelyNazo said:
.Your father's friend likely was a moderate computer user who only used his system for an hour a day (because 90% of people are that way). In this case, turning the system off after use is the most logical thing to do. For the computer users on these forums, however, we use our computers a lot more frequently than average people do and if we were to turn our systems off after every use we would be booting up and turning off 5-10 times a day (this would noticeably shorten the system's lifespan due to thermal strain).
Also, when a system is idling it will never be running anywhere near 60c even if it's a "red-hot prescott"; so I doubt leaving the system on all the time will noticeably reduce it's lifespan most of the time.
Nazo
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2002
- Messages
- 3,672
Nope. He's not in that 90% number of people. When he did use it he used it a fair bit. Also would just leave it sitting on a lot and just turn it off every night or so. He wasn't concerned about temperatures and didn't realize the importance until more recently when we upgraded him to a modern processor and noticed that it was running rather hot (his house is very hot, despite having central air conditioning -- he's even doing things like putting tin foil in the back windows.)
It's now my "HTPC" / retro gaming system (I use it for dos games and emulation and watching videos.)
Who said 5-10 times a day though? I thought we were talking up to two times a day, as in maybe just before leaving for a while (in case of storms or somesuch) and maybe when going to sleep at night. Typically this would be once a day. Sure, if you sit there shutting it off and back on, even waiting 10 seconds between each, it's going to wear on the components a lot, but, if you just turn it off for a large number of hours, the difference is minimal.
Anyway, like I said, components usually don't run THAT hot, though I must point out that people are suggesting things like folding, which will mean no longer idling. However, I am pointing out that it's probably still a little bit better for the life of the components considering how hot most people run their systems even idle. (Not just CPU, don't forget motherboard and harddrive matter too.) I have heard of people running their CPUs near to 60C idle though (not even an option for me, around 58 or so it gets massively unstable, which is ok, it idles around 41C or so at current settings which are still pretty good, though I miss doing 2.5GHz.)
Simply put, unless you're pushing things pretty hard, it doesn't make a noticable difference. That old system has lasted all these years being shut on and off, a new one won't be much worse.
BTW, the temperature change isn't really all that extreme for most of the components. The heatsinks sort of act like a buffer and you could sort of say that the buffer is "full" when you shut it off. Without the fans running, it takes a little while for the heat to dissipate. It doesn't just instantly fly down to room temperature as if you'd stuck ice right on there or something. I watch my temperatures, and I've noticed this in my own PC even. If I shut it off for a long time, I can actually see the CPU run as low as 33C for quite a few minutes after having started windows if I don't start Prime95. Just shutting it off for a few minutes to try this setup or swap some card or even in this most recent case, blowing the dust out doesn't do much though. I turn it back on and find the CPU pretty close to normal idle temperatures. The rest of the system doesn't go up or down as far (pretty good airflow) so I guess that's not as big of a deal even. (We're talking about a 4-5 degree or so difference between idle and full prime95 for the system temperature.) Mind you, many people do run their systems hotter with less airflow, so that might be more of an issue (still again it comes up to the fact that without all the fans blowing temperatures are going to decrease more slowly, not a sudden jump straight to room temperature.)
It's now my "HTPC" / retro gaming system (I use it for dos games and emulation and watching videos.)
Who said 5-10 times a day though? I thought we were talking up to two times a day, as in maybe just before leaving for a while (in case of storms or somesuch) and maybe when going to sleep at night. Typically this would be once a day. Sure, if you sit there shutting it off and back on, even waiting 10 seconds between each, it's going to wear on the components a lot, but, if you just turn it off for a large number of hours, the difference is minimal.
Anyway, like I said, components usually don't run THAT hot, though I must point out that people are suggesting things like folding, which will mean no longer idling. However, I am pointing out that it's probably still a little bit better for the life of the components considering how hot most people run their systems even idle. (Not just CPU, don't forget motherboard and harddrive matter too.) I have heard of people running their CPUs near to 60C idle though (not even an option for me, around 58 or so it gets massively unstable, which is ok, it idles around 41C or so at current settings which are still pretty good, though I miss doing 2.5GHz.)
Simply put, unless you're pushing things pretty hard, it doesn't make a noticable difference. That old system has lasted all these years being shut on and off, a new one won't be much worse.
BTW, the temperature change isn't really all that extreme for most of the components. The heatsinks sort of act like a buffer and you could sort of say that the buffer is "full" when you shut it off. Without the fans running, it takes a little while for the heat to dissipate. It doesn't just instantly fly down to room temperature as if you'd stuck ice right on there or something. I watch my temperatures, and I've noticed this in my own PC even. If I shut it off for a long time, I can actually see the CPU run as low as 33C for quite a few minutes after having started windows if I don't start Prime95. Just shutting it off for a few minutes to try this setup or swap some card or even in this most recent case, blowing the dust out doesn't do much though. I turn it back on and find the CPU pretty close to normal idle temperatures. The rest of the system doesn't go up or down as far (pretty good airflow) so I guess that's not as big of a deal even. (We're talking about a 4-5 degree or so difference between idle and full prime95 for the system temperature.) Mind you, many people do run their systems hotter with less airflow, so that might be more of an issue (still again it comes up to the fact that without all the fans blowing temperatures are going to decrease more slowly, not a sudden jump straight to room temperature.)
I turn mine on when I'm gonna use it, and I turn it off when I'm done. Simple as that. If a part happens to fail due to constant turning on and turning off, then I'll buy a new one. In my life, I have had 0 inexplainable failures that could have been caused by this. I think it's worth the amount of money you save on your power bill.
Big Fat Duck
Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2005
- Messages
- 601
if you dont restart your computer, your ram will never get refreshed
Here is what I do. I turn mine on when I get home and turn it off when I go to bed. So basically 8 hours on, 16 hours off, repeat.
Most people only keep their computer parts for 3 years, 5 years max. And damage caused by turning the computer on/off too often will show up much later than 5 years. (think more like 10 years) However leaving a computer on 24/7 will wear out the moving parts. Fans are cheap and easily replaced and your hard drive can be set to spin down when you aren't using it. So leaving it on isn't really an issue either.
I turn my computer off for a couple of reasons; first it saves electricity and second my computer can't have a meltdown or start a fire while I am gone. I am just paranoid about leaving things on when I am going to be gone for a while.
Basically I suggest that you do what you feel comfortable with. If you are leaving it always on, you should consider folding; but that is up to you. I'm not going to push folding too hard since I don't do it on any of my pcs, even my servers that are on 24/7. Folding on all my PCs really spiked my electrical bill.
Most people only keep their computer parts for 3 years, 5 years max. And damage caused by turning the computer on/off too often will show up much later than 5 years. (think more like 10 years) However leaving a computer on 24/7 will wear out the moving parts. Fans are cheap and easily replaced and your hard drive can be set to spin down when you aren't using it. So leaving it on isn't really an issue either.
I turn my computer off for a couple of reasons; first it saves electricity and second my computer can't have a meltdown or start a fire while I am gone. I am just paranoid about leaving things on when I am going to be gone for a while.
Basically I suggest that you do what you feel comfortable with. If you are leaving it always on, you should consider folding; but that is up to you. I'm not going to push folding too hard since I don't do it on any of my pcs, even my servers that are on 24/7. Folding on all my PCs really spiked my electrical bill.
Nazo
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2002
- Messages
- 3,672
What in the heck are you talking about?Big Fat Duck said:
Uhm, restarting or no, it means nothing to your memory. As for refreshing, well, take a look at some info about memory: http://xtronics.com/memory/how_memory-works.htm Your memory is refreshed probably hundreds if not thousands of times in a single second (too lazy to do all the math to say for certain just how much) WHILE THE SYSTEM IS RUNNING! The article is a little outdated (talks about RAMBUS as if it were new, no mention of DDR) but, you may still learn a thing or two. Particularly the part about SDRAM (DDR=double data rate SDRAM.)
Anyway, one thing you want to bear in mind when keeping PCs on is that fans are probably the easiest to die of all the components. Usually dust clogs them up and wears out the motors first, but, even when you have no dust at all, the average cheap fan only promises something like 20,000 total hours. That's still more than one year, but, definitely the shortest lasting of all the components. Turning them off does increase their lifetime by default obviously. Mind you, they usually die from the dust getting inside (even if you blow them out frequently, a little bit is going to get in there every now and then and cause some wear.) Of course, still the less time they are on the better, even then. Usually better made fans, such as your typical CPU fan, promise a lot more time (more in the area of 50,000,) so dust is the main threat to them in the long run even.
Still, fans -- even CPU fans -- are pretty easily replacable in most cases (every now and then you have to basically replace the whole HSF on the CPU because a fan is nearly impossible to replace without some kind of retrofitting or something that just isn't worth the trouble.) So, I wouldn't say to be worried about that either.
Whatever the case is, bear in mind that, as I said, that particular system from the late 90s is obviously now > 5 years old and it's still working as smoothly and as stable as ever now. Makes a great HTPC system in fact. As for the temperature factor, well, I tried to get down to the bottom of just how effective heat is at decreasing the lifetime of components and, from what people were saying, even running your CPU in the upper 50s for long periods of time will probably still see you with a working system several years down the road. I wouldn't count on it being around 10 years from now maybe, but, definitely should make 5 or so.
In the end, it's just a question of what works best for you. I mean, if you aren't using it, just shut it off. Why waste the power. If you want it to be put to use, well, folding, Gimps, seti, whatever project you like could always use the extra cycles. It's your power bill. ^_^ Personally, I've been trying Gimps for a while (darn it, I want that prize -- even if it does get cut down to a pretty small amount after they divide it up.)
delusion_2005
Gawd
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2005
- Messages
- 805
I prefer to shut down my computer after i am done with it, because i don't like leaving it on, the only time that i would leave it on, when i am downloading something big from the internet, besides that i would shut down, because i keep thinking something will fry.
Commander Suzdal
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2004
- Messages
- 2,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Fat Duck
if you dont restart your computer, your ram will never get refreshed
Originally Posted by Big Fat Duck
if you dont restart your computer, your ram will never get refreshed
You took him to mean DRAM refresh because he used the word "refresh." I'm sure what he was actually referring to was the problem of memory fragmentation during normal use. Windows memory management has improved somewhat, but as programs are opened and closed etc. over time, the available free memory addresses still tend to become fragmented into smaller and smaller blocks. It's like installing and uninstalling a lot of programs on your hard drive--lots of little DLLs get left behind, and over time it adds up to problems. Rebooting from time to time clears this up, improving both performance and stability.Nazo said:
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2003
- Messages
- 2,848
Reasons to shutdown your PC every night, or regularly:
Some IBM hard drives require this. The old deskstar drives would only work for 40 or so hours maximum before they'd start failing causing hard drive data loss and possibly permanent damage.
Save electricty/money.
Silence. Most PC's are fairly noisy. Mine is pretty damn quiet, but it's still too much for me to sleep comfortably.
Windows just can't handle being on for long periods. Windows will probably run out of paging files sooner or later and it'll start giving you weird 'memory low' errors even though you blatantly have tons of ram free.
Protect PC components. Ok, this is probably the weakest one. Most PC components will last an age before dying, however, some things will fail faster than others; namely, the power supply. A cheap PSU could really do with not being left on all the time. CPU, Ram etc, they'll all be fine however.
Those are the main reasons I can think of to turn your PC off regularly.
Personally, I just always turn my PC off at night just because I need absolute dead silence to sleep. Also, I've got broadband now, so gone are the days where I'd have to leave a large download going all day and night.
Some IBM hard drives require this. The old deskstar drives would only work for 40 or so hours maximum before they'd start failing causing hard drive data loss and possibly permanent damage.
Save electricty/money.
Silence. Most PC's are fairly noisy. Mine is pretty damn quiet, but it's still too much for me to sleep comfortably.
Windows just can't handle being on for long periods. Windows will probably run out of paging files sooner or later and it'll start giving you weird 'memory low' errors even though you blatantly have tons of ram free.
Protect PC components. Ok, this is probably the weakest one. Most PC components will last an age before dying, however, some things will fail faster than others; namely, the power supply. A cheap PSU could really do with not being left on all the time. CPU, Ram etc, they'll all be fine however.
Those are the main reasons I can think of to turn your PC off regularly.
Personally, I just always turn my PC off at night just because I need absolute dead silence to sleep. Also, I've got broadband now, so gone are the days where I'd have to leave a large download going all day and night.
Commander Suzdal said:
I have only seen problems with this when machines have been on for months. Everyone here is a responsible computer user and applies all the needed patches every month and restarts their computer to apply them. So no one here should see this problem.
Right??
This actually applies to all OSes. Weather it is my server 2003, XP, OS X, Fedora Core 3 machine; none of them last more than a couple of months without at least one patch that requires a restart. Because contrary to popular belief, Linux and OS X actually do need patches, just like windows.
Nazo
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2002
- Messages
- 3,672
Uhm, I won't deny that Windows has it's issues, but, Windows XP IS based on server technology after all. You'll find a lot of people glad to inform you that their copy of XP has been running months on end without being shut down or rebooted and it runs just fine. You'll even find people who say they reboot every few minutes and it runs bad. I won't deny fragmentation exists maybe (and btw, this is part of the nature of memory management, so linux probably has a bit of it, just not bad enough to be easily noticable) but I will deny that I've ever noticed any visible difference whatsoever depending on when I reboot (mind you, I've probably never gone over a week uptime -- usually using a bootable disc or something.) I am a gamer though, so if that problem came up so easily, I'd have noticed by now surely. Like the person said before me, it pretty well takes months.
Without a doubt, the main reasons to shut your computer down is, quite simply, because you want to save power or don't like the noise (for example, I just revamped my cooling a bit, but, unfortunately, have to suffer a sort of wind tunnel sound until I figure out how to fix it without loosing the rather serious cooling I'm seeing atm.) Personally, I get used to it after a while and can just leave it as long as it's not in the 40+dB range or so. Which is good because I'd rather put those 2.5 billion cpu cycles otherwise wasted every second to use for something within reason. Actually, I'm in Gimps because I want that money (lol, aren't I greedy? But, you get such a small amount of if you do find the 10M digit prime,) but, I must admit, the project HardForum seems to have taken an interest in, folding, is actually a pretty worthy project that may one day have some rather seriously important uses (possibly life saving type stuff.)
So, don't worry over the lifetime of your hardware if you are running it within reason. Just don't shut it on and off over and over every few minutes and you're ok. Don't run it consistantly in the upper 60C range 24/7 (time for better cooling if you're going that high up.) Follow those simple rules and your system will last you more years than you want it to (but, hopefully as many as you need regardless of how many you want.)
Without a doubt, the main reasons to shut your computer down is, quite simply, because you want to save power or don't like the noise (for example, I just revamped my cooling a bit, but, unfortunately, have to suffer a sort of wind tunnel sound until I figure out how to fix it without loosing the rather serious cooling I'm seeing atm.) Personally, I get used to it after a while and can just leave it as long as it's not in the 40+dB range or so. Which is good because I'd rather put those 2.5 billion cpu cycles otherwise wasted every second to use for something within reason. Actually, I'm in Gimps because I want that money (lol, aren't I greedy? But, you get such a small amount of if you do find the 10M digit prime,) but, I must admit, the project HardForum seems to have taken an interest in, folding, is actually a pretty worthy project that may one day have some rather seriously important uses (possibly life saving type stuff.)
So, don't worry over the lifetime of your hardware if you are running it within reason. Just don't shut it on and off over and over every few minutes and you're ok. Don't run it consistantly in the upper 60C range 24/7 (time for better cooling if you're going that high up.) Follow those simple rules and your system will last you more years than you want it to (but, hopefully as many as you need regardless of how many you want.)
My computer usually stays on 24/7 doing nothing. I used to run a fileserver on it for friends to hold game cracks and saves, and general crap. But im on 64k internet now, so it just does nothing. Over the past 8 years, I have had one commodore go up in smoke for no reason, and one 386 packard bell die one morning.
About memory fragmentation. I have tried a few programs to defragment ram, and they do seem to make a big improvement after a few weeks of uptime.
Parsts wear? Shit. According to the poll, most hardforum members dump their old setup after 2 years and build a new one. Parts wear really should not matter at all. My 1998 Compaq proliant server ran 24/7/365 untill last summer. Not one single problem. The ram, hard drives, and fans all worked flawlessly serving up the interweb. 6 years of service without a hickup.
Other than that, I havent had any weird problems.
About memory fragmentation. I have tried a few programs to defragment ram, and they do seem to make a big improvement after a few weeks of uptime.
Parsts wear? Shit. According to the poll, most hardforum members dump their old setup after 2 years and build a new one. Parts wear really should not matter at all. My 1998 Compaq proliant server ran 24/7/365 untill last summer. Not one single problem. The ram, hard drives, and fans all worked flawlessly serving up the interweb. 6 years of service without a hickup.
Other than that, I havent had any weird problems.