Trying Vista - A few questions

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shadowwyvern

Gawd
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Sep 22, 2005
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I am finally setting up a real vista install. Anyhow, I have a few questions:

1.) What can I do to configure WGA? I have a legit copy from my school (yea MSAA) but I don't think is an excuse to stand for BS. Removing it entirely would be best, but are there executables I can just deny access to the internet via a software firewall (Zone Alarm)?

2.) From the wikipedia article (or article family, I am not sure exactly where I read it), it mentions Microsoft having the ability to disable hardware remotely. I do not want any of this. It is my damn computer.

3.) Any other major tips? I found drivers for all my hardware without much issue, but have not used it enough to determine if they live up to the poor expectations I have read about.
 
shadowwyvern said:
1.) What can I do to configure WGA? I have a legit copy from my school (yea MSAA) but I don't think is an excuse to stand for BS. Removing it entirely would be best, but are there executables I can just deny access to the internet via a software firewall (Zone Alarm)?
Click to expand...

There are programs you can deny access to with the Windows Firewall now. As for WGA, just don't. If your copy is legit you have no problem anyway, and you won't experience any performance issues. Paranoia is just going to cause problems.

DevilsAdvocate said:
2.) From the wikipedia article (or article family, I am not sure exactly where I read it), it mentions Microsoft having the ability to disable hardware remotely. I do not want any of this. It is my damn computer.
Click to expand...

That's BS. Absolute BS. I can't believe people stil propagate this kind of trash.

DevilsAdvocate said:
3.) Any other major tips? I found drivers for all my hardware without much issue, but have not used it enough to determine if they live up to the poor expectations I have read about.
Click to expand...

My first tip is stop reading about poor expectations and just use the programs you would normally use. If you just want to find reasons to not use it, then just cut to the chase and stop using it.
 
There have been bitches and complaints ad nauseum about WGA. I’m a HUGE Microsoft fanboy, but I also make an effort to be objective. I know there’s a lot of FUD going around about Vista, but if you a LEGITIMATE copy of Vista, you’ll be fine. I’ve personally installed it on six machines with no problems.

There have been some issues about WGA that I’ve read about on the net, but I’ve never seen anything personally.

As far as tips, gee, there’s a bazillion. One guide that I like: http://www.tweakguides.com/TGTC.html

You may end up hating Vista. I’ve talked to a couple of co-workers that had complained about some issues and went back to XP. I know that I won’t. I admit that I’m biased. Never owned a Mac, but I have an Ubuntu box running 24x7 that basically sits there doing nothing, but I use my Vista Tablet PC and my sig rig constantly, and I just don’t have any problems.

If you have hard to isolate problems, there are a lot of good people in these forums and others that are more than willing to help!
 
GreNME said:
If your copy is legit you have no problem anyway, and you won't experience any performance issues.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Fiddling around with a perfectly working copy by downloading unverified online cracks is just looking for trouble.
 
These are two little GUI freeware apps that I really love:
TaskBar Shuffle - http://www.freewebs.com/nerdcave/taskbarshuffle.htm
Switcher - http://insentient.net/

If you are Windows user, you know about the taskbar. Taskbar Shuffle lets you arrange the the order of the taskbar items via drag and drop. This is one of those things you really love or couldn't care less about. Obviously I'm in the former.

Switcher is a bit more interesting. It's a clone of Expose for the Mac, which allows one to quickly switch between apps via a mouse or keyboard.
 
Since you were talking about WGA and firewalls...

I installed PC Tools firewall plus (because Kerio/Sunbelt and Comodo are currently unavailable) and installing it makes me fail WGA.

I couldn't get into my control panel/it turned off Aero/all kind of annoying.

I had to uninstall it. Strange thing is that it ran fine for a few days and then one morning I woke up to an error. I think windows itself or the firewall made an update during the night that broke it.

Even with the issue I've had, I'll agree with everyone else. Don't try to hack it out.
 
I've never been a fan of Windows Activation or WGA. But, to be honest, it's never gotten in my way either. The only time it's ever been a concern for me was when I have moved my copy to a new PC. For example, I just upgraded my Mother Board, CPU and RAM and Vista wouldn't activate for me. Fortunately, MS doesn't make it difficult. I made a 5 minute phone call to the provided number durring the activation process. They asked me if my version was retail or OEM (retail), how many PC's it was on (just the one) then they read off a new activation number. All done. It's the same process I had to use under XP.

The thing about disabling hardware is mostly FUD with a bit of inaccurate information leaked in. It's technically possible to have some hardware lose support to display DRM protected Hi Def Video in Hi Def, but no hardware will suddenly stop working. It only applies to DRM protected High Def Video and nothing else.

The poor expectations you read about are usually vastly overstated. They are also, largely, no longer the case. Gaming performance being the prime example. Early on, drivers weren't quite ready for prime time. They ran slower than their XP counterparts, they didn't support SLI at first. Then they only supported DX10 SLI boards. It took a while for things to shake out on the driver front. Today there no real difference in game performance. In most cases, they run the same. In some XP is a tiny bit faster, in others Vista is a tiny bit faster.
 
It seems that many Vista users just seem to forget the performance difference between the boxes. File copy, unpacking etc. are miserably slow on Vista. Games suffer from micro-lockups (some memory dumping in backgound it seems, probably releasing ram that should be free) and different compatability problems. Especially on 64-bit.

On my XP box things are simple - point and click. Stuff works.

From the first day I installed the Vista box - point, error, google for a fix, fixed, another error or fix didn't work.. etc. point - sloooooow operation. Glitches, UAC taking control (that is, untill I disabled that load of crap). Failing uninstallations, icons that sit on desktop but OS says they don't exist when trying to delete them. Made it look a lot better though, disabling Aero and moving to classic menus.

DX10 gaming pretty impressive - EEEK wrong! Maybe 1% visual difference overall and a performance hit as a bonus. What a crap deal.

I'm pretty sure I'll upgrade that box to XP too.
 
Just to throw mine in as everyone else...
If you have a legit copy- don't worry about it. Trying to bypass, work around it, or disable it will have WAY more time, effort, and troubles than leaving it alone.
Being you have a legit copy and for some reason it doesn't validate... Call Microsoft, it is all of 6 minutes, and you are good to go.

Yes there are some WGA horror stories out there. But most of them either stem from A) Illegal versions (What do they expect??? WGA doing what it is supposed to!) or B) Very odd configurations. Some may have troubles for no reason- but these are the VERY minority (And once more... a call to Microsoft... 6 minutes)


Since we are talking apps a little... RocketDock FTW. I've disabled Windows Sidebar in favor of it.


It still amazes me how much inaccurate FUD has been spread about Vista. Just amazing.
 
I apologize for asking questions based solely on "hype," but frankly it scares me. Maybe I am too used to the linux world, where a personal computer really is your own. Anyhow, despite some searching around (mainly on Microsoft's site, I have been unable to find information about how when, and why WGA phones home in Vista. Does anyone have reliable, and complete documentation on this subject? I might just call MS, elevate to a supervisor a few times, and see what turns up.

As for letting all this go and just using the OS, it is not really something my personality and ethics allow.
 
shadowwyvern said:
As for letting all this go and just using the OS, it is not really something my personality and ethics allow.
Click to expand...
What in your "ethics" makes you think it is a problem that Microsoft checks if you are using a legitimate version or a pirated version? If you were truly concerned about ethics and morality, you'd be in favor of WGA. Considering what it's purpose is, and the fact you've said you do have a legitimate copy, then what is there left to discuss or think about?

Don't follow the path of the other Linux fanboys who do nothing but post inaccurate information in an attempt to bash Microsoft. Stick to the facts, and spend your efforts getting worked up over something worthwhile, instead of a company trying to protect there own IP, as every company should be allowed to do.
 
Ethics means I actually have a legitimate license. Ethics means I refuse to be complacent and go out and learn things I am unsure about.

Is it wrong to want to know how and when my computer is using my internet connection? Is it wrong to want to know what things might cause an operating system to fail (failure includes some sort of silly activation/validation problem)?

Linux has many weaknesses, but at least developers respect user's privacy and don't try to turn their personal computers into advertising platforms.

Does anyone have some insight, not insults, to pass to me?

Thanks for reading.
 
shadowwyvern said:
don't try to turn their personal computers into advertising platforms.
Click to expand...


And for reasons like that right there... is why you aren't getting taken very seriously that you are "neutral" and just wanting information on what it is doing... You have prior bias already in place.
 
Here's a good starting point about WGA and phoning home: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060608-7017.html

Thing is that Microsoft is far from the only company that collects information from your computer. In some way, many commercial software companies do employ some type of network authentication scheme. iTunes comes to mind. If you you Steam, you have to sign in to even run your games.

Now many claim that Microsoft is collecting personal information. That really makes no sense. The liability that they would expose themselves doing this is incalculable. If it ever got out, they'd face no doubt billions in lawsutis, destroy their corporate image. It would be devastating beyond belief, unless of course unless the US government forced them to.

To be honest, in this day and age in the war on terror and government agencies collecting who knows what kind of data on people, if you live in the US, I think that your ethics and concern would be better focused on what the Fed's are doing.

I'm not trying to be snide and I can understand that you wanting to know what kinds of information Microsoft is collecting, but there so much information out there on everyone, a government that spies on us, people that economically motivated to steal personal information, what Microsoft is collecting is largely irrelevant. Linux users get this treatment as well.
 
heatlesssun said:
These are two little GUI freeware apps that I really love:
TaskBar Shuffle - http://www.freewebs.com/nerdcave/taskbarshuffle.htm
Switcher - http://insentient.net/

If you are Windows user, you know about the taskbar. Taskbar Shuffle lets you arrange the the order of the taskbar items via drag and drop. This is one of those things you really love or couldn't care less about. Obviously I'm in the former.

Switcher is a bit more interesting. It's a clone of Expose for the Mac, which allows one to quickly switch between apps via a mouse or keyboard.
Click to expand...

Trying out these two apps. The Switcher seems pretty great, I've tried similar alternatives previously but they were buggy. This one has run fine so far. The Taskbar Shuffle, on the other hand, is a bit harder to use and not as useful in my opinion. Not a bad program, but i feel as though it has a ways to go yet before becoming a necessary addition.
 
rgratto2 said:
Trying out these two apps. The Switcher seems pretty great, I've tried similar alternatives previously but they were buggy. This one has run fine so far. The Taskbar Shuffle, on the other hand, is a bit harder to use and not as useful in my opinion. Not a bad program, but i feel as though it has a ways to go yet before becoming a necessary addition.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've tried several Expose clones for Windows, and Switcher is the best by far, never have had a problem with it.

Taskbar Shuffle isn't something that many people would ever even think about, but I've always thought that being able to arrange the taskbar something that should be built into it. It should be a no brainer to use. When its running, you can just drag and drop the items in the taskbar and arrange them in any order that you want. You can also do this with items in the task tray by hold the Ctrl key while dragging an icon. Not for everyone, but I use it all the time.
 
shadowwyvern said:
I am finally setting up a real vista install. Anyhow, I have a few questions:

1.) What can I do to configure WGA? I have a legit copy from my school (yea MSAA) but I don't think is an excuse to stand for BS. Removing it entirely would be best, but are there executables I can just deny access to the internet via a software firewall (Zone Alarm)?
Click to expand...

If you have a legit copy, and are honestly concerned about this you should just install linux and forget about vista.

2.) From the wikipedia article (or article family, I am not sure exactly where I read it), it mentions Microsoft having the ability to disable hardware remotely. I do not want any of this. It is my damn computer.
Click to expand...

Umm, what? No.

If you don't activate windows after 30 days Vista stops working, not your hardware. Maybe you are confused?

3.) Any other major tips? I found drivers for all my hardware without much issue, but have not used it enough to determine if they live up to the poor expectations I have read about.
Click to expand...

Vista works, stop looking for problems that don't exist outside of the minds of MS haters.
 
shadowwyvern said:
I apologize for asking questions based solely on "hype," but frankly it scares me. Maybe I am too used to the linux world, where a personal computer really is your own. Anyhow, despite some searching around (mainly on Microsoft's site, I have been unable to find information about how when, and why WGA phones home in Vista. Does anyone have reliable, and complete documentation on this subject? I might just call MS, elevate to a supervisor a few times, and see what turns up.

As for letting all this go and just using the OS, it is not really something my personality and ethics allow.
Click to expand...

No offense, but I think that last line is a cop-out. There is a distinct difference between wanting to know how something works and assuming the worst. The gossip (FUD) you mentioned in your first post all assumed the worst, and unnecessarily so.

When I said to just go ahead and use the OS as you normally would, I was assuming the best from your intentions and most probable use. I figure that if you're a tinkerer, you'll be able to discern fairly quickly the changes in hardware configuration will require Windows to re-check its status, and any speed bumps along the way will only be speed bumps, nothing more. As for when WGA does a check, I can assure you that the following scenarios are definites: when contacting Microsoft Update; when downloading something from Microsoft's website where it prompts to check; if you have auto updates turned on, when it authenticates to the MS update server. All else is speculation. There is a high probability that it would run a check when the Windows startup process (not binaries, the series of actions) detects a different (new) piece of hardware than what was already in the HAL from the last time it was up, but that's not a 100% guarantee unless it contacts the MS update server to check for a driver (which can happen ). In Vista, there is also a probability that when you click the "check online for a solution" that it may perform a check, but once again that isn't 100% certain (and is less certain than a change in the HAL).

Regardless, the common denominator here is whenever the computer is brought to the conclusion, whether through user input (clicking a button) or logical operation directives (like when there is significant hardware change), that it needs to check and make sure that the copy of Windows is genuine. This is all pretty much laid out in every verbose description of WGA I have ever looked into, as well as any detailed explanation by any MS rep I have conversed with on the subject. Basically, it's sort of like, "here is what it is, and any use under the EULA should give you absolutely no problems with it, but if you run into any problems let us know and we'll resolve it." With the XP WGA I've actually run into a couple of instances where there was an issue, and manually telling the OS to check with the MS server (simply by going to Microsoft Update myself) resolved it, no calls to MS necessary. So far no such issue has come up like that with Vista, and I run it at home and have a few of my machines at work on it. The XP issue seemed to have something to do with the fact that the workstations weren't completely authenticating to the DC at boot-time, and as such weren't getting DHCP and DNS info handed to them so they could perform their check like the other machines the day after an update.

It's not a security concern. A simple reboot after the update fixed the issue. I like to think I run a pretty tight firewall at work, and have in nearly two years not run into an issue where WGA had any vulnerability on our machines, even the edge machines. I don't so much consider it a non-issue as much as I consider it a don't-fix-it-if-it-ain't-broke issue. ;)
 
shadowwyvern said:
Ethics means I refuse to be complacent and go out and learn things I am unsure about.
Click to expand...
That's a great attitude to have, honestly, but it has nothing to do with ethics. Peronsality, desire to increase knowledge, yes, but not ethics. Ethics are about morality in choosing right from wrong.

Now, the reason why no one is taking you seriously is, because you gave a wild statement in the beginning, and are now trying to backtrack out of it. No one would ever fault you for wanting to know more about WGA. The problem is, in your first post, you made some ridiculous claims about it and what it does, only to admit later it's something you don't know about and would like to learn more on. Keep the crazy FUD spewing out of a thread, and just ask the questions. Had you done that, you'd have a normal, decent discussion on WGA, rather than a bunch of people attacking your statements.
 
Heh hindsight is nice :) My first post was the result of a very small amount of research on the topic, so at the time I made it it was certainly premature. After some poking around, I have been able to find two distinctly different camps: The Microsoft camp ( you can guess what they say), and everyone else, who continously bash Microsoft (sometimes groundlessly, sometimes not). I have not been able find any nice, objective document that answers these questions, namely:

When, why, and how does Vista spontaneously contact Mircosoft and what can be done to control it (I'll add "within the terms of the license" so I don't have to field cries of "pirate!"). Does it use some sort of special path that bypasses software firewalls? Is there a way to force phone-only activation (so I have at least some control over how much information is sent)?

Microsoft's own privacy statement seems to at least imply there is something the end user can do about it.

Thanks to everyone that has been helpful, from what I have done so far, many tricks from XP translate nicely into vista, so the "transition" is not as bad as I thought it would be.


To the critics, I am surprised to find the prevailing attitude here "It works, so who cares." I came here to find some level-headed reassurances and find some documentation. I used the word ethics a little liberally, but it seems to me that the aforementioned complacency with regard to loss of privacy and control is a serious problem, regardless of what you call it. You avoid hypocricy by not mourning what is being lost, but in order to do so, you lose sight of exactly what you are consenting to.

Take the WGA privacy statement. According to MS:
Microsoft said:
The tools do not collect your name, address, e-mail address, or any other information that Microsoft will use to identify you or contact you.

Any collected data that could identify a user will not be used to contact the user.

We use the information to Help prevent improperly licensed use of the software
Click to expand...

Good enough? Sure, why not, I can trust MS right? Read on:
Mircosoft said:
We use the information to Develop aggregate statistics.

If your system is identified as non-genuine, additional information may be sent to Microsoft...

This data may be retained for the sales life-cycle of the product in question.

We may also share aggregate data with others, such as hardware and software vendors and volume licensees

A unique number assigned to your computer by the tools (Globally Unique Identifier or GUID)
Click to expand...

Hmm, not so great now? They can, and indeed even say they will, share all their data which whomever they want, keep it as long as they want. They don't even have to say what they collect, either. Also thanks to that globally unique identifier, your movements around the world can be logged and distributed to "partners." And as if that is not enough, they can remove any protections this statement might grant the user whenever they want.

Is it so reprehensible to investigate what is so quickly labeled and discarded as FUD? Some of this "FUD" is surprisingly well supported by Microsoft documentation.
 
shadowwyvern said:
Hmm, not so great now? They can, and indeed even say they will, share all their data which whomever they want, keep it as long as they want. They don't even have to say what they collect, either. Also thanks to that globally unique identifier, your movements around the world can be logged and distributed to "partners." And as if that is not enough, they can remove any protections this statement might grant the user whenever they want.

Is it so reprehensible to investigate what is so quickly labeled and discarded as FUD? Some of this "FUD" is surprisingly well supported by Microsoft documentation.
Click to expand...

These are valid questions, and I know that Microsoft isn't as open about this as it could be, but at the same time, they do make the point of saying that they don't actually retieve any data from your system, or personally identifying information and I believe them for two good reasons:

1: Corporations: I nwork for a mega bank, and trust me, the head IT haunchos have access to a lot of Windows information that the non-billion dollar corporations don't have. It would be COMPLETELY unacceptable for Windows to to phone home anything other than machine stats.

2. The liability that Microsoft would face getting personal information would be in the billions if they got caught, and with that kind of money at stake, I don't think that it would be hard to find a rat.

It all sounds good that Microsoft is controlling your PC and doing whatever it wants but it makes little sense to do so, even from Microsoft's point of view.
 
shadowwyvern said:
... Hmm, not so great now? They can, and indeed even say they will, share all their data which whomever they want, keep it as long as they want. They don't even have to say what they collect, either. Also thanks to that globally unique identifier, your movements around the world can be logged and distributed to "partners." And as if that is not enough, they can remove any protections this statement might grant the user whenever they want.

Is it so reprehensible to investigate what is so quickly labeled and discarded as FUD? Some of this "FUD" is surprisingly well supported by Microsoft documentation.
Click to expand...

Is this specific to Vista or does XP have this also?
 
Heatless... #2 is the biggie.
Take Apple as an example. They have some of the toughest "secrecy" rules around yet things still get leaked out.
Take into account how big Microsoft is compared to Apple, and you substantially increase the chances of getting a rat.


OP: That link you posted... I think you also forgot one key point: Only applies for non-genuine Windows.
You first say you will only mention items that apply to legal systems, yet then go and post something that has to do with pirated versions of Windows to further your point?
 
The point was, there is no statement saying they will never collect certain information, only statements about the information they will collect under certain circumstances. There have been reported cases of falsely labeled pirated software, my searches brought up tons of articles regarding the recent WGA failure, and despite MS's statements that it assumes all install genuine during such a failure, there were many cases where users were hassled with "non-genuine" pester notices and possible worse. That brings me to another point: The availability of the internet or remote server should have zero impact on being able to boot and use a computer. Power? Check. Off you go end of story. I understand Microsoft's need to protect their IP, but when they start violating user's privacy and denying access to someone's personal property (shockingly, us little guys can produce IP too) because they can't keep a server up is utterly unacceptable. Sure it works in most cases and may not both most people, but that does not make it right.

I am probably going to call MS tomorrow (when I have free cell minutes again), and see what the source has to say on the subject and what configurations options users have.

Even if MS does get sued into the next universe, that will not help people that had their personal information disclosed.
 
shadowwyvern said:
Sure it works in most cases and may not both most people, but that does not make it right.
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It's also possible you could be killed walking down the street when a small meteor would fall and hit you on the head. Sure, it can happen, but do you see people getting all up in arms, wearing helmets when they go for walks? Absolutely not. WGA issues occur to so few people, it isn't even worth worrying about, and certainly not to the extent that you are. In the EXTREME rare case you have an issue, as mentioned, you simply call them up (toll-free) and have it fixed within minutes.

Life is short, and their are plenty of things to be worried about, but why go gray sooner over something so trivial???
 
shadowwyvern said:
Some of this "FUD" is surprisingly well supported by Microsoft documentation.
Click to expand...

Only when you cherry-pick statements.

Look, I could supply you with packet sniffing sessions and you still seem to be unwilling to be convinced that you are tilting at windmills with this. With all the genuine controversies about the behavior of Microsoft and the genuine complaints about Vista, this whole issue is an exercise in misdirection.
 
Microsoft actually posted the contents of one of these on their blog at one time (I don't remember where I saw it or what I would search for to find it though, but I did see the post).

It contained basic system information. OS Version, Release, Date, etc.
Nothing at all that I would care about (Heck, I think it was even so basic of info, I could care less if ANYONE got ahold of it and it was made public).

Of course there was one person that started a thread about it here a few months ago claiming they had "proof" Microsoft was sending other stuff. But the "proof" never surfaced.
Of all the claims of Microsoft collecting data... NONE have provided proof. There is plenty of examples of what they send out (basic stuff), yet none to the contrary.
 
I got Vista Business with my new machine about the time it came out. There were a few issues, but were quickly fixed. All the software I use worked just fine. I have tweaked it to be as close to classic windows as I could.

It basically boils down to getting used to a few of the differences in the system, but I haven't had any real problems.....
 
If you're so damn worried about it:
1) Use your favorite *nix
2) Unplug the ethernet cable/modem, and never let it touch the internet.

It's really, really, not that hard.
 
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