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TRUE Black 120 - Lapping really necessary?

S

Synomenon

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Messages
7,662
I'm interested in picking up a TRUE Black 120, but have seen all those posts about lapping the TRUE. I just got a Zalman CNPS9900 and the base is pretty smooth (almost a mirror finish).

How does a TRUE Black 120's base compare to a Zalman's base? I don't overclock and would like to run the TRUE Black 120 fanless in my Antec Mini P180.
 
The base of my Zalman CNPS9900 was this smooth out of the box:

TIM_Before_Spread.jpg




The picture of TRUE's base out of the box is scary:

Ultra-120_eXtreme_Base_Closeup.jpg




I've never lapped a heatsink before. If I order a TRUE Black 120 and the base looks like the one above, I'd be wary of using it.

I always apply AC MX-2 as a thin line (parallel to that big indentation on the side of the processor) down the center of my Q6600.
 
With lapping and a washer mod ,since the mounting system sucks balls, you could see a 5c+ difference in temps. Ive heard people report much more than that. A convex loose base vs a flat tight base, what do you think will cool better?
 
stainremover said:
lapped / unlapped difference is 1 or 2 degrees at most these days.
Click to expand...

Unless we're talking about Thermalright, who sometimes ships god awful finishes on the bases of their products. When I spent about 30 minutes lapping mine (only went up to 400 grit) I got an 8C reduction at load. The washer mod and a quick 600 grit finish on the lapping job got me another 5c drop.
 
novadude said:
Unless we're talking about Thermalright, who sometimes ships god awful finishes on the bases of their products. When I spent about 30 minutes lapping mine (only went up to 400 grit) I got an 8C reduction at load. The washer mod and a quick 600 grit finish on the lapping job got me another 5c drop.
Click to expand...

HEY! HEY! That base is an exclusive feature! :D

Washer mod is a must. Try twisting the heatsink with the stock mounting system.
 
Washer mod? Alternative mounting methods? Lapping?

Sounds like maybe it's not such a great idea to dump this much money on a TRUE Black 120 then. I guess I'll just stick with the Zalman.
 
IsLNdbOi said:
Washer mod? Alternative mounting methods? Lapping?

Sounds like maybe it's not such a great idea to dump this much money on a TRUE Black 120 then. I guess I'll just stick with the Zalman.
Click to expand...

Oh, it's worth it. The temps are great. It is the best heatsink on the market once you lapp it and throw a couple of washers under the bracket. Thats easy.
Washer Mod Thread
 
The TRUE unlapped will still beat the Zalman CNPS9900, lapping the TRUE just lets it's true colors shine, lapping both my TRUE and CPU I got a 11C drop off my max temps.
 
Ok, so after reading more reviews it looks like Thermalright has some kind of lottery (like Dell's panel lottery) with their heatsinks. Some come in decent shape while some look as bad as that pic. I posted above.

Is there an online store in the US that will let me return it w/o restocking fee if I get one that looks as bad as above?
 
IsLNdbOi said:
Ok, so after reading more reviews it looks like Thermalright has some kind of lottery (like Dell's panel lottery) with their heatsinks. Some come in decent shape while some look as bad as that pic. I posted above.

Is there an online store in the US that will let me return it w/o restocking fee if I get one that looks as bad as above?
Click to expand...

They all come with a concave heatsink. They claim it's a feature. You can buy one from Jab-tech and they'll lap it for you for $15, I think. It's worth every penny. Lapping is a royal pain in the ass.
 
I didn't run my black TRUE before lapping, but I know it took me about 2 hours to get it nice and flat. So now I agree with paying someone else to do it :)
 
I didn't see an option on Jab-Tech to lap the heatsink. This site does:

http://www.crazypc.com/products/true-black-50984.html


Says this on the page though:
Lapping - Get the best performance from your heatsink with our Lapping option. We will lap the base giving it a nice flat and smooth finish. This option will Void the warranty of the heatsink making this product non-returnable once you have purchased this option. Lapped base is shown in picture to right. We start with a 220 grid and finish with a 1000 grit. Our goal is a flat smooth surface (not mirror finish).
Click to expand...

They charge an additional $19 for it and it looks like they're out of stock.
 
IsLNdbOi said:
When you had it? Did you move up to a water cooling setup?
Click to expand...

Yes. Alot of people seem to think lapping means to make it shiny, and if its shiny it must be flat and cool better.

No, the base doesnt look pretty, but from what i recall mine was pretty flat, (not shiny, looked just like the picture). This is why lapping didnt do much for me. Id also consider that people reporting 10+ degree drops possibly didnt apply thermal paste correctly the first time, or those that did, perhaps didnt apply enough.
 
nissanztt90 said:
Yes. Alot of people seem to think lapping means to make it shiny, and if its shiny it must be flat and cool better.

No, the base doesnt look pretty, but from what i recall mine was pretty flat, (not shiny, looked just like the picture). This is why lapping didnt do much for me. Id also consider that people reporting 10+ degree drops possibly didnt apply thermal paste correctly the first time, or those that did, perhaps didnt apply enough.
Click to expand...

Just because you didn't see the same results as the rest of us doesn't mean we do not know how to do something as simple as apply TIM, ever think that maybe you lapped wrong? Or maybe you just lucked out and got one with a flat base?

My TRUE cooled quite well, however the base as not flat, I spent 2 hours total lapping both my HS and CPU (started with a very aggressive grit on the HS as 400 was going no where), I have also reapplied TIM many MANY times, trying out over 10 types, so my gains are quite real. ;)
 
BlueFireIce said:
Just because you didn't see the same results as the rest of us doesn't mean we do not know how to do something as simple as apply TIM, ever think that maybe you lapped wrong? Or maybe you just lucked out and got one with a flat base?

My TRUE cooled quite well, however the base as not flat, I spent 2 hours total lapping both my HS and CPU (started with a very aggressive grit on the HS as 400 was going no where), I have also reapplied TIM many MANY times, trying out over 10 types, so my gains are quite real. ;)
Click to expand...

Too bad your reading comprehension isnt as good as your lapping skill.:rolleyes:

1. I pretty blatantly said, from what i remember my base was pretty flat, which is why lapping didnt do much for me.

2. I said I would consider the possibility that those reporting ridiculous temp differences were from improper install. Go ahead and take it out of context and think im accusing people of not knowing how to apply thermal paste, get a little more defensive too while your at it...:rolleyes:

3. I lapped it quite well, as well as my e6700. I know i lapped it well because it had a solid grip from the vacuum and required a bit of force to get it off. No, i didnt use any type of glue, and the TIM was plenty viscous after removal.
 
nissanztt90 said:
Too bad your reading comprehension isnt as good as your lapping skill.:rolleyes:

1. I pretty blatantly said, from what i remember my base was pretty flat, which is why lapping didnt do much for me.

2. I said I would consider the possibility that those reporting ridiculous temp differences were from improper install. Go ahead and take it out of context and think im accusing people of not knowing how to apply thermal paste, get a little more defensive too while your at it...:rolleyes:

3. I lapped it quite well, as well as my e6700. I know i lapped it well because it had a solid grip from the vacuum and required a bit of force to get it off. No, i didnt use any type of glue, and the TIM was plenty viscous after removal.
Click to expand...

No need to get personal, I saw what you said, and yet you still went on to say that the TIM was not applied right, even though most of the people doing lapping it's not their first time nor is it their first time applying TIM, and yet over all most people seem to get the same gains, I think that says something. All I was doing, was letting you know my gains were real.

I was also not being "defensive" I thought the little "wink" at the end would have given that away, "out of context, out of context, out of context" wah, cry me a river. But I guess people on this board just like taking out their dick so everyone can see. :rolleyes:

Disclaimer: This post is not being defensive and/or attacking, it is only meant in good fun. ;)
 
If you lap a TRUE and do not pressure mod it you can acctually do more harm than good. Think about it, the mounting system is already loose and now you are removing material from the heatsink and cpu making it even looser. I could post a couple of 10+ page threads of very creditable overclockers reporting 5c+ losses in core temps from a solid lapping job and a firm mount.

I wouldn't go with the Asus Dark knight. I haven't heard the best things about it. I would be surprised if it was much of an upgrade from your Zalman. People seem to say good things about about the CCF and Xigmatek.
Keep in mind that a normal TRUE is $15 less than a TRUE black and is the same thing. There is no air cooler on the market that can compete with a properly lapped and pressure mounted TRUE.
 
BababooeyHTJ said:
There is no air cooler on the market that can compete with a properly lapped and pressure mounted TRUE.
Click to expand...

Preach it brutha. I've got 3 TRUE in my 3 systems now. I quit dickin' around with the other horseshit long ago. With any/every system build I do, I know I gotta buy a TRUE.
Properly lapped and mounted, in a 120mmx38mm sanmmich, there's nothing cooler or quieter.
I had a Copper TRUE and had to sell it because of the weight, now I just buy the Blacks. Love 'em.
I think I've lapped over 10 TRUEs now for myself and friends/customers... Every single one of them were in desperate need of lapping. It never geats any easier either. Jacks my elbow up for days.
 
BababooeyHTJ said:
I wouldn't go with the Asus Dark knight. I haven't heard the best things about it. I would be surprised if it was much of an upgrade from your Zalman. People seem to say good things about about the CCF and Xigmatek.
Click to expand...

Lol @ Asus. The sink he linked to is the Xigmatek S1283, not a video card. You really seem to know what your talkin about.
 
There is only one way to check if yours is flat..
Thats to re-lap it and it will need no work or a lot of work.......

When I got my HS I was glade I lapped it as it had a hollow in the center.......
 
Brahmzy said:
Preach it brutha. I've got 3 TRUE in my 3 systems now. I quit dickin' around with the other horseshit long ago. With any/every system build I do, I know I gotta buy a TRUE.
Properly lapped and mounted, in a 120mmx38mm sanmmich, there's nothing cooler or quieter.
I had a Copper TRUE and had to sell it because of the weight, now I just buy the Blacks. Love 'em.
I think I've lapped over 10 TRUEs now for myself and friends/customers... Every single one of them were in desperate need of lapping. It never geats any easier either. Jacks my elbow up for days.
Click to expand...

10 of them! You don't have carpal tunnel? It's worth it, imo. How was the copper? Did you happen to do a direct comparison to a normal TRUE?
 
just posting so I can bookmark the excellent info and links...got my Black today =D
 
I just lapped my true black edition, OMG did it make a difference, I applied the TIM like 5 times before I decided to lap it, it improved temps ~7 degrees, keeps my 3.2ghz e6750 at about 35 idle(No fan)
 
If you have the time and want a bit lower temps, Why not? Give it a shot. Once you get the feeling to it, you can step up and lap your cpu as well.

Then after a few runs, your gonna be lapping everything like me :)
 
Ive used about 5 or 6 thermalright's and all were not flat and had an awful finish. The last one I had was so bad I ended up with an 8C drop in temps after lapping the heatsink and CPU. Ive also ran into a couple Noctua's that were not flat. If you want to see what it can do... lap it.
 
Original TRUE120 I bought with a Q6600 was actually worse than the stock cooler, and the chip would kick in it's thermal throttling at a little over 60%. First thought of course was incorrect mounting or thermal paste application, as how could the best heatsink on the market produce such results? After reapplying it again with no difference, I figured maybe the processor was faulty. A bit of internet research showed that a fair few people had problems with both the base of the TRUE, and that C2D processors generally had fairly bad IHS as well.

So decided to lap the TRUE, leaving the processor alone for now. Lapped the TRUE, and it was horrible, I honestly couldn't believe how bad it was. Reapplied heatsink, and ended up with a nice 17 degree celcius drop in temps.

Copyright said:
Ive also ran into a couple Noctua's that were not flat.
Click to expand...

I've never had a decently flat Noctua, and make sure I lap them all too. Overall they're better finishes than the TRUEs though.

They really need to change the way they machine heatsink bases. They machine the bottom plate, then they stick it onto the base of the heatsink/heatpipes, whereas they need to stick it into place, wait for it to fully cure, then machine it flat.

PS. If there's even a question about the quality of heatsink bases, then reviews need to change. Whenever a site does a heatsink review, they really need to do two samples.
A) Get 5 of the heatsink under review, and test them without lapping, this will show how good it is out of the box
B) A lapped result, this will show how good the heatsink can be.
 
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