treyarch dev says negative 'gamers' are ruining industry

dr.stevil

dr.stevil

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While I think that he might be letting the comments of some cynical geeks get under his skin a little more than he should, he does make some good points. I rarely bother reading comments on gaming releated articles anymore, not to mention avoiding the gaming section here and on other forums do to the sheer amount of negativity that comes out of the community.

Alot of the people that like to complain act like they're entitled to something and if they don't get that, they cry about it and generally act like spoiled brats. Sometimes it's warrented but, IMO, it's usually blown out of proportion. It's almost like certain things are expected and if the developers try something new or different than the status quo, they're labled as sellouts or greedy and that they don't care about the community. A lot act like games should be tailor made to THEM instead of enjoying something that was envisioned by another person, for good or for bad.

What do you think about it? Does he have a point?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/02/02/t...he-biggest-problem-facing-the-games-industry/
 
Yes, he has a point. Negative, mass-minded Americans wouldn't know a good product if it hit them in the face, at times.
 
Umm sure?

I mean if you want our money, our hard earned money, i honestly think we are entitled to complain a bit when you rush a title to make a november release, that isnt very innovative, and is pretty much just simply a map expansion, and expect people to spend over 50$ on it....

I mean the first few CoD's did do a bit to online multiplayer and the FPS genre as a whole. Perks, Killstreaks, etc. But after umpteenth release of pretty much the same ole, i honestly cannot see why he is entitled to say that "when developers try something new they get labeled as sellouts". His company is not trying anything new.

Look at minecraft, magika, Leauge of Legends/ HoN, they all gave something a new spin and have been rewarded as a result. Mass effect to be truely honest wasnt really more than a console port, but none of us complained about it because of its storyline, gameplay, and gameworld.
 
Well we live in a world where even the 20 somethings on down all feel like they are entitled to everything in general. As a result they whine and bitch unreasonably and tend to be among the most vocal of any group.

It's just like all the people in the gaming forums who think they are entitled to a game demo and when they don't get it they'll actually pirate the game claiming that they are "trying before they buy." The vocal proponents of such nonsense act like they are entitled to a demo so they are justified doing what ever they want to get what they are "entitled to." Even in the old days of PC gaming at the height of it we still didn't get free demos for every game that came out. Granted demos were more likely as developers were actually proud to show case their products.

We do tend to get fairly lame console ports now. Though I feel like this is probably a temporary situation. As consoles get more advanced and become more PC like the games should hopefully get better and more complex. I don't think the PC will ever die as a platform given that everyone has one. We just have to hold on until that day comes. Some decent games have come out recently. Even despite many of them being console ports. Dead Space 2 is an example of a good console port and Need for Speed Hot Pursuit and The Force Unleashed 2 are examples of console ports done badly.

Oh well.
 
I think that a lot of gamers have a "go-with-the-flow" attitude. That most of them can not tell you exactly "what" makes a good game, or even even "why" they like the game.

As an example, I really dont care for team fortress 2. But if I post that in a gaming forum, most people will start slinging insults my way that I'am stupid or dont know what I'am talking about. Valve made tf2, they promoted tf2, so it "must" be a good game.
 
Only Treyarch game I ever bought was WaW and I thought it was a re-skinned MW1 rip off and regretted it. That said, gamers and most consumers in general can get pretty whiney, I don't see how they are "ruining" the industry tho.
 
Texas Gamer said:
I think that a lot of gamers have a "go-with-the-flow" attitude. That most of them can not tell you exactly "what" makes a good game, or even even "why" they like the game.

As an example, I really dont care for team fortress 2. But if I post that in a gaming forum, most people will start slinging insults my way that I'am stupid or dont know what I'am talking about. Valve made tf2, they promoted tf2, so it "must" be a good game.
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No kidding. I get flak every time I saw something bad about CounterStrike Source and Deus Ex. Two games which I think are seriously over rated and in general, pretty shitty.

kledar586 said:
Only Treyarch game I ever bought was WaW and I thought it was a re-skinned MW1 rip off and regretted it. That said, gamers and most consumers in general can get pretty whiney, I don't see how they are "ruining" the industry tho.
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Treyarch is just whining because they constantly live in the shadow of Infinity Ward as "that other team that makes all the sub-par CoD games." I actually liked Black Ops, but that's pretty much how people see their games.
 
What's ruining the industry in my opinion is game devs that put out crappy console ports or games that are either buggy, broken or just too damn short for the money they ask.
 
Treyarch, a company that only churns out crummy Call of Duty sequels every other year, is blaming the gamers who keep them in business for the lack of creativity in the industry?
 
Dan_D said:
Treyarch is just whining because they constantly live in the shadow of Infinity Ward as "that other team that makes all the sub-par CoD games." that's pretty much how people see their games.
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+1. That's definitely how I see their games.

shadowghost said:
Treyarch, a company that only churns out crummy Call of Duty sequels every other year, is blaming the gamers who keep them in business for the lack of creativity in the industry?
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Ironic, isn't it?
 
treyarch dev says negative 'gamers' are ruining industry

well, as a 'gamer' I say treating game development as an industry is ruining gaming.
When a game is just a product and subject to business models with main focus on efficiency, marketing and making money in general, values like originality and creativity go out the window.
 
hey guys. this is a good game. you dont know its good but im telling you its good. if you dont listen that its good, and buy it well then you are killing the industry. We put some new stuff in this game thats totally awesome too. if you dont like the new stuff we tried, well then you are killing the industry.

Its so ridiculous. Its like saying people who dont like movies are killing the movie industry. When you create something, not everyone is gonna like it. Thats the way it is. When you charge people $60 for something and they dont like it..they get negative. Thats a lot of money for something you dont even like. When you create something and A LOT of people dont like it..MAKE A BETTER GAME
 
So typical of most of the game companies these days. They expect us to happily settle for less,paying more and more for substandard games. Reminds me of the movie "They Live",if you had a pair of those sunglasses you'd probably see the subliminal message "boring is good" printed on the game packages.
 
Gamers with standards are ruining the industry...the industry wants to vomit unfinished turds at $60 (in the US, much much higer in other territories) and they want gamers to eat it up with a smile and a generous wallet.
 
Plague_Injected said:
Gamers with standards are ruining the industry...the industry wants to vomit unfinished turds at $60 (in the US, much much higer in other territories) and they want gamers to eat it up with a smile and a generous wallet.
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Make a good game and they'll get all the accolades and cash that goes with it. Batman Arkham Asylum, Dead Space 2, these are games that were actually good despite being console ports. A good game is a good game and many developers just recycle the same old bullshit we've been seeing for years and expect praise.
 
Dan_D said:
Make a good game and they'll get all the accolades and cash that goes with it. Batman Arkham Asylum, Dead Space 2, these are games that were actually good despite being console ports. A good game is a good game and many developers just recycle the same old bullshit we've been seeing for years and expect praise.
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Now go and check how much money those games made compared to cod or halo. There's no incentive to make a good game when you can sell 12 million copies of what is essentially a reskinned version of a previous game.

Good games will make money, but when it doesn't make cod money, they say, make it like cod. Don't even get me started when an actual good game get's made and they pump out about 50 sequals. I think 2 Assassin's Creed games were enough. I expect we'll be seeing Dead Space 5 in time.
 
Ryan711 said:
Now go and check how much money those games made compared to cod or halo. There's no incentive to make a good game when you can sell 12 million copies of what is essentially a reskinned version of a previous game.

Good games will make money, but when it doesn't make cod money, they say, make it like cod. Don't even get me started when an actual good game get's made and they pump out about 50 sequals. I think 2 Assassin's Creed games were enough. I expect we'll be seeing Dead Space 5 in time.
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Not everyone thinks so, but Call of Duty games can be good. CoD4MW, CoDMW2, and CoDBO are good games in my opinion. CoD4MW was the best of the bunch and there are things about the others I don't like, but I enjoyed them all. Sometimes you end up with an example of "if it ain't broke don't fix it." Obviously these games are hugely popular despite some elitist minded people who act like the games are total trash. No they aren't deep and their stories are outlandish and pretty much bad, but on the bright side the core game play is excellent. I think Counterstrike Source was mediocre when it was new and it sure as hell doesn't deserve the following it has today. Then again that's just my opinion. Different strokes I guess.
 
I like how he's talking about gaming as a creative medium. A person who works for the company now developing the Madden of first person shooter games is talking about creativity.

And that's not negativity, that's cold hard motherfucking fact. I'd rather give my money to developers of games like Magicka. That game has some creative spark in it.

Dan_D said:
Not everyone thinks so, but Call of Duty games can be good. CoD4MW, CoDMW2, and CoDBO are good games in my opinion. CoD4MW was the best of the bunch and there are things about the others I don't like, but I enjoyed them all. Sometimes you end up with an example of "if it ain't broke don't fix it." Obviously these games are hugely popular despite some elitist minded people who act like the games are total trash. No they aren't deep and their stories are outlandish and pretty much bad, but on the bright side the core game play is excellent. I think Counterstrike Source was mediocre when it was new and it sure as hell doesn't deserve the following it has today. Then again that's just my opinion. Different strokes I guess.
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The Call of Duty games are good games, but they are all essentially the same game in different disguises. Ever since MW1, we've been getting the release a year business model where each game differs only in the fine detailing--the core gameplay is utterly unchanged.
 
Mokkat said:
treyarch dev says negative 'gamers' are ruining industry

well, as a 'gamer' I say treating game development as an industry is ruining gaming.
When a game is just a product and subject to business models with main focus on efficiency, marketing and making money in general, values like originality and creativity go out the window.
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+1 Agreed.

COD's been doing this since COD4:MW, they know it makes them millions of dollars and I doubt it will stop anytime soon- this "dev" is blowing hot air out of his ass.
 
I see the same thing with movies and music. Companies churning out bullshit that just rakes in the dough.

Iron Man 2 was the #3 movie of 2010. Grossing more than True Grit and Social Network, combined.

Ke$ha and Justin Beiber were among the top albums sold in 2010 (top 20 according to Billboard).

I guess the difference with those industries, is that we can just not buy or support the crap, because there are so many alternatives that actually are good. The game industry seems different. I have noticed a rise in the amount (and polish) of indie games lately, and I hope that continues. But I need awesome AAA FPS/RTS/MMO and not really side scrolling platformers. ><

Also, imo, the only decent Treyarch games were the first couple of Tony Hawk's.
 
The money is flowing the wrong way if he want me to STFU. How about you give me $60 and your game and I'll promise not to speak ill of it.

Of course, I reserve the right to speak ill of games I haven't bought, that's just a basic freedom most people agree is good. I guess some don't. Those people should try moving to saudi-arabia.
 
Yea, Treyarch. Everyone in the world but YOU needs to change.

What a fucking pussy.
 
I have no idea what this Treyarch guy is referencing on his soapbox.

Certainly, he's not thinking of BLOPS while he says that? I think he's talking about other games, but he's so vague and cryptic I really don't give a shit.
 
I think shitty games hurt the industry far more than negative gamers do.
 
Zero82z said:
I think shitty games hurt the industry far more than negative gamers do.
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That statement is so true.

Years ago I remember a review in pc gamer. They said the only good thing about the game was that the ESC key worked to get you out of the game. Everything else was terrible and the game crashed a lot.

All games will have problems, but when their full of bugs, poor quality maps, it cast a shadow on the whole industry.
 
repeating myself but

STOP RE-SKINNING THE SAME FUCKING ENGINE OVER AND OVER AND WE'LL STOP BITCHING

Fuck Treyarch
 
Shitty games make for shitty comments, it's not rocket science really.
 
I'm sorry I didn't buy a console port of a PC port of a console port of a re-skinned port of a PC game.

Me not spending my money on a product I have no interest in doesn't make me negative. If a game interests me, I'll buy it. I have no problems buying NHL year after year. I had no problems buying BFBC2, and BFBC2 Vietman and will have no problems buying BF3.

But when a good game was dumbed down the the extent CoD has been, no thank you. If anything, I prefer to play CoD4 over the latter 'updates'. You know, the game that had a great modding community that churned out better maps and mods than those useless $15 map-packs.
 
people like to bitch, particularly gamers. i don't see how this is stifling the creativity of developers though. it sounds like he's miffed at the whiny gaming community - and i don't blame him, gamers bitch excessively. but if i were in his shoes and representing a company i wouldn't go on record saying so...it's a viewpoint i'd keep to myself. also he's getting paid to endure such things.
 
Boo fuckin hoo. Want someone's hard earned money? Then entice them.

Sorry but if you aren't happy with the current state of gaming, then LEAVE THE INDUSTRY. No one is forcing you to develop video games.
 
Yes I do feel like I am entitled to something. I feel like I should be entitled to play the game I purchased, but apparently treyarch feels differently as at release Black Ops for the PC was extremely unstable crashing constantly with lots of low fps spikes even on high end rigs.

Black ops is like the game version of what happens when to take a crappy translator and translate a sentence to spanish, to Italian to Swahili to farsi to Japanese then back to english.

If treyarch had released a well optimized game with few bugs and people were bashing it about features sure...they might have something to complain about. But they released a buggy as hell game with shitty code.

There is also the fact that we gamers are the audience, we fund their projects with our money. They SHOULD be catering to what we want.
 
The one thing in the gaming industry that I cannot stand more than Madden style yearly game releases, like UT and COD, is the whining about it by developers whose creative wombs are utterly barren.
 
The argument would have more clout if it was given by a different developer such as bioware or valve who have a reputation of making polished software.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
I would say a complete lack of reasonable and rational discussion about games is adding to the industry becoming very .....unwelcoming.

But I don't hold "gamers" as the sole responsible party in that mix, although they do their fair share to spiral it downward.

Developers lack of communication, clever market speak to hide the lack of old or expected features or selling old features as new, overdoing it when they do fix exploits/imbalances, underdoing it when they put out content updates paid or otherwise, and just generally being unapologetic about how they treat their customers. Especially their customers who can remember that they weren't always where they are now market wise and recycling their products with almost no work put into expanding upon or updating it in a meaningful way is rather insulting.

It's almost like they want you to hate them....I mean the little indie guys...they listen, they talk about their games, they aren't hard line "THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE NO MATTER HOW MANY PAYING CUSTOMERS ASK". And the big guys basically do what THEY want to do, put it out and EXPECT you to buy it and be happy that they even made it in the first place. That is pretty much the definition of feeling entitled. If you can not hear what people have to say, ask questions to get meaningful information....then you can not get upset when people are bitching that you ignored a large portion of them.


And then we get into the vague "promises" or "market speak promises" developers make to people before the box is on the shelf and then they mysteriously are not in the software that is on the shelf...and no one can remember how they lead you to believe it was. This is where a lot of MMOs thrive.... "We didn't have time." "It will be added later." "No, that system is working as intended." "Maybe in the next expansion."
 
dr.stevil said:
It's almost like certain things are expected and if the developers try something new or different than the status quo, they're labled as sellouts or greedy and that they don't care about the community.
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Most of the time it is warranted these days because the developers are being greedy sellouts.

1. The most common scenario is also the most indefensible one: the "new" thing tried intentionally makes the game worse in order to milk more cash. Things like taking away dedicated servers or taking away modding to sell shitty map packs for $15. Ring a bell?

2. Also common is eviscerating the core of a game to appeal to consoletards and drive up sales. You can see this in Mass Effect 2 with the dumbed down RPG mechanics and the game split up into "missions" rather than large explorable worlds. An argument can be made that they really thought these were good design decisions, but more likely they just wanted to get cheddah from Halo fans by changing the game from an RPG to a shooter. Crysis 2 as well...pretty obvious that the "new" things they are trying there are cash-oriented and not making-a-good-game-oriented. Was Oblivion a better game than Morrowind because there were no spears, you couldn't wear pauldrons, and enemies were leveled to the player so kids could roll through wherever they wanted right out of the game? Fuck no. Was Supreme Commander 2 better than Supreme Commander 1 with all the complexity taken out and the game being turned into Starcraft Lite? Again, fuck no. For the most part the complaints about "newness" is due to the complexity of older, better games being taken away. It's a sad fact that most development today is not done with the core fans in mind. Atlus is the only big time developer I can think of offhand that really really cares about its fans.

3. Then we have the least common thing: innovating for the purpose of making a better game, where mass appeal is either totally ignored or just a side-effect of making a good game. You see this in the death penalty structure of Demon's Souls, the entirety of Little Big Planet, the battle system in Valkyria Chronicles 1, etc.
 
We have this thing called the internet, of course people are gonna use it to bitch and moan about shit. Humans in general dont feel the need to praise every good thing that happens, they do however feel the need to bitch about everything they dont like. If you dont like it, you should probably just unplug that ethernet cable/turn off the wireless and never look at the internet again.

If you stop remaking the exact same game each year perhaps people would have less to bitch about. COD have always been decent games, but they're all the same fucking game. You expect people not to bitch when they are getting the same game they got last year and having to pay another $50 or $60 for it?

Dan_D said:
Well we live in a world where even the 20 somethings on down all feel like they are entitled to everything in general. As a result they whine and bitch unreasonably and tend to be among the most vocal of any group.
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I was under the impression that was always the case, its just now the 20 somethings have a medium on which they can compain about not getting what they are entitled :p
 
Is this a joke? This guy can have his Black Ops game shoved up his ass. Some of the textures(blowing up trucks) look like fucking star craft 1 graphics. Honestly the game is so buggy its not even funny. I rarely lag around anymore, but I heard there is still lag around. My ping is around 40 in the servers I play and I still notice some small lag occasionally(FPS always @ 80+). And honestly that game looks like pure garbage thrown at us. It looks like cod 1 with a little bit of remodeling -.-

Oh and when you allow someone to go 41-0 with a few killstreaks there's obviously something wrong with the game. You get 9 kills and bam, basically you rape the entire other team. No I am not bad at this game(K/D is around 2.2-2.3) but it just sucks. Even compared to MW2.
 
Tudz said:
its just now the 20 somethings have a medium on which they can compain about not getting what they are entitled :p
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Combined with this generation of 20 somethings getting royally shafted compared to past generations. Relatively speaking, there was virtually no competition for jobs when the boomers were entering adulthood. These days I know TONS of people from top 10 law schools and top 10 MBA programs with great grades who can't find any sort of meaningful work. It wasn't long ago that one could go to a garbage law school, open up a practice in a small town, and do relatively well. Similarly a lot of the previous generation got to fuck around doing whatever they wanted and then go get corporate jobs when they got around to it. These days just one small screwup on the higher education treadmill can have devastating consequences. For the most part the boomers climbed to the top and then pulled the ladder up by outsourcing jobs, not retiring and opening up jobs for the new generations at the same age that past generations did, and expecting the younger/poorer generation to fund their healthcare and retirement. In general I would want to pass a better country to my children than the one I inherited and I would hope the prior generation would do the same. Sadly they didn't and this has fueled much discontent among 20 somethings, which comes out in a variety of ways including complaining about anything and everything.
 
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