Transducer questions

Discussion in 'Computer Audio' started by manny1222, Feb 25, 2017.

  1. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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    Hi,
    I would like to add bass shakers/transducers to my racing simulation rig without breaking the bank and I'm trying to decide on what to buy, but I have questions because I don't have any experience when it comes to audio components.

    1. Does the strength of the transducer depend on the power (watts) or the impedance (ohms)? For instance these two shakers are the same (15 watts) but come in 8 ohm or 16 ohm
    [https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...le-transducer-mini-bass-shaker-8-ohm--300-386] or [https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...e-transducer-mini-bass-shaker-16-ohm--300-388].
    This one is 4 ohms and 20 watts
    [https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ile-bass-shaker-transducer-20w-4-ohm--300-888]
    I'm not sure if there'll be that much difference between 15 watts and 20 watts

    2. Which ever you help me settle on, I will be getting 4 of them for the 4 corners of my rig, using SimVibe. I'm guessing I need a 4 channel amplifier. My second question would be how do choose the amp intense of power (watts) and impedance (ohms)? Would be the sum of the power (say 4 x 15watts) and how would impedance play into it.

    Thanks for the replies
     
  2. Mchart

    Mchart [H]ard|Gawd

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    The higher the resistance the less wattage you'll be getting out of it / the more current you need to drive it.

    So something needing 15 watts at 8 ohms is needing more current (Amps) then something at 15 watts 4 ohms.

    4 x 15 watts at 4 - 16 ohms pretty much any receiver or amp on the market is going to be able to easy drive as most on the market are rated at around 100w in that resistance range.
     
  3. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    You got it backwards. At 8 ohm you need more volts and less current.

    Ohms law: Power (P) = Voltage (V) * Current (I) so 15W at 8 ohm is equivalent to 18.95V and 1.36A vs 15W at 4 ohms' 7.74V and 1.93A.

    This is why higher impedance speakers are generally an easier load to cheap amps which do not have a high power powersupply.

    The watt rating on the transducers is their power handling spec, it tells nothing else of the transducer but the amount of power you can put to it before the manufacturer intends it to start failing. Generally with low frequencies bigger and more powerful is better so compare the force specs, not the power handling which tells you nothing.

    You can also combine many units together to a same mounting surface which in effect create a 'bigger' transducer.
     
  4. Sabrewulf...

    Sabrewulf... Gawd

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    I think the size/mass of the transducer motor would come into play as well concerning "strength" of the tactile feel or sensation. These are not mere vibrators, they are very similar to speaker motors just moving a mass instead of a cone moving air. They quite accurately work in conjunction with your subwoofer to simulate that tactile feel from say an explosion, gun shot, engine rumble or bass from dubstep yeah! :wacky:

    I have one of these powered by a 60 watt plate amp screwed to the back of my gaming chair, (high back executive office chair) would not be with out it! Amazing addition to the nice bass I have from the dual 15" IB home theater subs I tap into for my gaming rig/sound system (all in the same room). I also have 4 of them in my recliner for the home theater, those powered by a pro audio amp, overkill but it was a good deal. Gaming, music and movies would never be the same without them after using them the past many years. These are rated 50W RMS @ 4 Ohms, they don't need all that of that to kick hard. I was using an old stereo to power the single gaming transducer for a while until it cooked, was old, but worked fine, kicked hard while it worked, added the plate amp, been fine since.

    Thinking you may be disappointed with those smaller ones?, the Dayton brand are a bit cheaper. But these are larger in size, not sure your application can fit them? Also keep in mind, proper placement/mounting can have a big impact on their performance as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  5. jevans64

    jevans64 Limp Gawd

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    I would get this bundle if you can place them on your seating. It is probably a little bit of an over-kill for a single gaming chair but the goal would be to have more than you would need so your range of tactile response would be greater. I have a pair of the ButtKicker LFE transducers backed by a 1000 watt amp mounted to my seating frame. Provides a very wide range of impact from just a little added vibration to help the food digest vibration. :D

    https://www.parts-express.com/2-aura-pro-bass-shakers-with-dayton-audio-apa150-bundle--300-9004
     
  6. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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  7. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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  8. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    manny1222 Just glancing at the literal size of the included power supply that is going to feed the amp, I doubt there is enough current running through it to create 45x4 power from that amp. I would suggest looking for something like B00nie suggested. Also those little Class D T amps tend to lie about their power. They usually make 1/2 the power listed, but require a much larger power supply than that is included to even make that.

    Do it right the first time and you won't have to worry about it later on. :)
     
  9. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    With bass amps more power is always better, even if you don't use it all. Worst thing you can do to a speaker is to run it with an amp that is too small and have it start clipping. A distorted signal can produce 5-10 times as much energy to the voice coil than normal music signal from the same amp. It's especially dangerous for tweeters which often have a power handling of 1-5 watts.
     
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  10. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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  11. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    I was thinking the same about using a computer power supply, but I was reading that they were too noisy. I was reading that I should get a LED strip power supply. Not sure 100% as I only read that in a Google search.
     
  12. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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  13. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Tou have to make sure your 12V rail can produce enough amps to drive that amplifier. A 430watt PSU might not cut it.

    If I were you I'd save up some money and buy proper stuff.
     
  14. Archmage

    Archmage 2[H]4U

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    I'll post some information on a few options: Though I think it'd be ideal to get something like a 75w x 4 amp somehow...

    Edited post for clarity. Removed useless cruft. Sorry, this post was a mess earlier.

    1. TI TPA3116D2 is arguably the best-performing compact and inexpensive option for 50-60w at 4ohms (clean at 50w, 1% THD + N at 60w assuming 24v PSU). http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3116d2.pdf - figures 7/8 show distortion vs power output at 12v/24v - IF everything is designed well. This is just the potential of the chip.

    There is also a long DIYaudio thread on the TPA3116d2. The trouble is finding a kit / completed amp that uses the chip's full potential. It seems a lot of the kits are sub-par.​

    2. The Sure amp kit already posted is based off the TK2050 chip (which was the go-to solid performer for a long time), same as used in the Dayton DTA-120 ($78 right now, 2-channel, pre-built with 24v, 5A PSU included). The PartsExpress page suggests 64w at 4 ohms at 1% distortion, but with 30V PSU. Looking at the TK2050 spec sheet for 24v performance: The spec sheet shows about 35w at 6 ohms with 23.5v PSU. It seems to be rated for 4 ohms only when paralleling the outputs, in which case it may provide a relatively clean 90-100w at 30v.

    3. Some other options (these MIGHT provide more clean power...)

    - FxAudio D802 (STA326)
    The FX Audio D802 uses an STmicro chip: STA326. It's the higher power version of the STA350 that the JBL LSR 305/308 employ (305 and 308 use the same STA350 amp chip, but the 308 has better cooling). It is rated for up to 80w x 2, and comes with a 160w power adapter, so I wouldn't be surprised if it output a clean 60-70w.
    - SMSL SA-160 or SA-98se (TD7498E)
    The SMSL SA-160 and SA-98 use the TDA7498E, which seems to distort heavily beyond 80w/channel (so above about a 28v PSU). Some people still seem to like it, but it looks like it's often over-powered into distortion.
    - Behringer 4-channel EPQ304: rated for 65w x 4 @ 4ohms, $230, but it has supposedly loud fans. The fixes are to replace the fans (40mm size x 2) or reduce voltage to them.

    - PartsExpress 70w @ 4 ohm plate amps ($55.50 each in quantity of 4). http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa70-70w-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-784 - It looks like you'll get more power. This may be easier. Some reviews suggest that the LPF isn't steep enough for subwoofer duty, requiring an additional passive lowpass filter.

    A bigger budget would help.

    Also, the extra $13 or so per Aura bass-shaker might be worth considering. I wonder if the Daytons are as good... I assume the bigger tactile transducers, like the ButtKickers, are too expensive anyway. The Youtube user Barnacules had an Emotiva amp powering 5 Buttkicker LFE's for a similar setup - probably 6-8x the $$$ though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  15. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    I would call Parts Express tomorrow and ask. I think you might have picked the proper supply there as the Sure manual says 27v. That power supply is good to 28.8 according to the PE page.

    Here is the Sure website for reference.
    http://store3.sure-electronics.com/power-supplies?p=4
     
  16. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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  17. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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    Thanks again for the replies.
    I guess I'll just wait and buy stuff later. I was just trying to use a little bit of spare cash i have currently to compliment my currently setup (a single buttkicker simulation kit - with a buttkicker mini concert - under my seat). I wasnt looking for crazy shaker levels, but just a little extra. But as was said, I'll save and get good stuff.
     
  18. Nenu

    Nenu Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    I agree with the Behringer comments.
    I use a 3KW Behringer (NU3000DSP) for my 1KW shaker, its fantastic. The DSP is a must.
    The fan can be heard if its not well hidden, mine is under the sofa.
    Others have replaced the fan with good success.

    Prior to this I used a cheapish 700W PA amp to get me by, the 1KW shaker slowly killed that even without showing clipping.
    It got less and less powerful until it had to clip to give a useful effect.
    Then one day it didnt work at all.


    You will very likely need some form of EQ to tailor the response.
    The small units with a few dials dont cut it in my opinion, full blown DSP controllers are much better.

    If you dont want a DSP, get the 1000W Behringer. NU1000
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-NU1000-Inuke-1000W-Amplifier/dp/B005EHIN12
    Or the DSP version. NU1000DSP
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/PA-Power...nuke-1000W-Power-Amplifier-Control/B005EHIN3A

    You can connect the shakers in series/parallel to maximise the output from the amp by keeping at 4 ohms total or 2x 2 ohms.
    In stereo mode you get to use 2 different DSPs so can tailor the response even further!
    The DSPs allow you to set the maximum output in Watts to prevent damage to the shakers.
    You may be able to configure the connection of the shakers to make 4 or 8 ohms per channel to limit the amp to 2x 250W or 2x 125W out as well as configure the DSPs max output power in Watts.
    There are a ton of options with this thing!

    My 3KW version is 5.5 years old now and hasnt put a foot wrong.
    Reliable.

    Oh yes, added bonus with the DSP version.
    You can fully control it and set it up from PC via USB. It uses very good graph based tools.
    You can make changes live to compare the result directly.
    It has a ton of save banks that you can name and allows you to import/export other saved ones from PC.

    Neat as f***
    And ridiculously cheap.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  19. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    He needs 4 discrete channels of amplification because each transducer will be on a corner of his racing sim rig. The way it works is like this. Say he starts to get a left front flat. The left front transducer will start to mimic the vibration from a tire going flat. If it goes completely flat then it will start to make a "whoop, whoop" vibration to simulate that. With SimVibe software you can add transducers to the steering wheel, seat, corners of the car, pedals, and more to simulate various issues that might come up during a race. Each transducer needs it's own discrete channel of amplification. I would guess that each transducer needs to play from 10Hz to maybe 250Hz? So he doesn't need a great amp. ;)

    Also he needs a second sound card in his PC as one will be dedicated to the SimVibe software to send the signal to the transducers and the other sound card will be the regular sound card that does normal sound card duties.

    Now if there was a cheap receiver that had discrete inputs for each channel then that would be perfect. All I saw last night was Dolby, HDMI, blah, blah, blah.
     
  20. Nenu

    Nenu Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Ah I see, helps if I can read.
    2 stereo DSP amps :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  21. Sycraft

    Sycraft 2[H]4U

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    When looking at amps for transducers, go whatever is lots of wattage and not a lot of money. The amps can be garbage in terms of sound quality, because distortion, noise, etc aren't relevant to shakers. So whatever amps, usually stage amps, you can get for low dollar are the right way to go.
     
  22. N4CR

    N4CR [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is [H], go for a full on dual in-wall Thigpen set up or go home! ;D
    Keeping an eye on this.

    And yes even the hifi sub guys have a soft spot for the Behringers, they are best bang/buck/quality you'll get. Only thing is fan mods to shut them up a little if you can't remotely mount them.
     
  23. Sabrewulf...

    Sabrewulf... Gawd

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    Using a Behringer EUROPOWER EPX4000 for my 4 Aura's, like I said above, its overkill, but got it for $150 shipped, brand new. Did the Fan mod (replaced with lower RPM fans) on a EPX2800 I had, worked fine. This one is behind a wall, so can't hear it anyway.

    How about this Behringer EPQ304 300W 4 Channel (4 x 75W into 4 Ohms; 4 x 50W into 8 Ohms) As mentioned in an above post. More than enough for 4 transducers. Only $229 shipped, not bad. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/behringer-epq304-300w-power-amplifier

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EPQ304
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
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  24. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    I recently used the Behringer iNuke6000 for a project and I was positively surprised by how quiet the fans actually were. Much quieter than in my old EP2500. I'd say that placed under a table a couple of meters away you'll be hard pressed to hear even the stock fans.
     
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  25. N4CR

    N4CR [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's great to hear them improving their systems like that. Gosh I may just use them for my sub instead and use the monos for the mains... decisions..
     
  26. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Guy tests a Behringer amp and shows what you need to use RCA jacks with it. Figured that manny1222 might like it.

     
  27. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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    Thanks for the great suggestions but this is supposed to be on a budget.
     
  28. Nenu

    Nenu Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    You havent given a budget.
     
  29. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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    Lets say $150. I have spare $120 and i can sqeeze out $30 more.
     
  30. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    I have never seen a 1KW shaker, which model is that?
     
  31. Nenu

    Nenu Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Quake 10b
    http://www.earthquakesound.eu/home-audio/bass-shaker-and-accessories/quake-q10b.aspx
    There are other places to get it cheaper but this has the best description.

    The Behringer amps specs are not RMS but not peak either.
    RMS is approx 20% less than rated at max power.
    Peak is approx 13% more than rated at max power.
    These figures increase when using less than max power of 3000W.

    edited:
    It shows peak Watt values when you set the max power limit.
    The 8 ohm shaker is run in bridge mode (the amps measured max Peak is 1740W, RMS 1200W into 8 ohm bridged).
    I want 20% less than this for 1KW RMS so I knock off 20% from the peak dial figure of 1806W.
    This is a bit under 1500W peak on the dial.

    Annoying but hey it works.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  32. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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  33. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Your original plan seemed very sound with the 4 channel Class D amp and a high voltage power supply. I would just call Parts Express and confirm that the power supply you noted is the proper one for the job. Some mentioned the two channel Class D amps from places like Amazon as those would work just as well.

    The only other alternative I can think of is to hit some thrift stores and grab a couple of working stereo receivers. Those would be bulky, but if hidden in a closet and flipped on with an outlet strip, it would be fine and keep the vvomen visiting. :) :) :)
     
  34. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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    Cool. Thanks.
     
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  35. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Ever get around to trying it out?
     
  36. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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  37. manny1222

    manny1222 Gawd

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    I will eventually. It was getting a little complicated and i couldn't decide, so i ended up getting a better race sit for my rig (GT Omega RS6) instead.
    It is definitely something I'll do in the future. Right now I'm getting ready for a trip.
     
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  38. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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  39. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    I wouldn't call that cheap anymore lol. Requires 2 batteries with a charger or a powersupply + self assembly. It will have no chassis either.
     
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  40. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    I think Parts Express had a 24V power supply on sale for $20 or so awhile back. I wonder how many would you need to power a few of these boards though. I think the price of the power supply units, if you needed one per amp, would kill the deal. Might as well get the 4 channel Sure board anyways as it is $49 off sale. :)

    Honestly I was more interested in the testing and seeing how much power he got out of it. Pretty cool that he got 85W at 2 ohms out of that tiny thing. I liked the fact that he started off testing it with a laptop power supply as I always wondered what kind of numbers these units could do with one.